Interpretation of Matt 24: 40-41 or JS M-1:44-45

[MrNirom]

Here are two passages of scripture that I am trying to understand.. I gave you the links so you can see the verses in context. Can someone explain the interpretations to me.. Thanks.

Matthew 24

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Joseph Smith—Matthew 1

44 Then shall be fulfilled that which is written, that in the last days, two shall be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other left;

45 Two shall be grinding at the mill, the one shall be taken, and the other left;

[prisonchaplain]

When Jesus returns not everyone will be ready, and it will be common for two people who are together to become separated, when the trump sounds.

[skalenfehl]

Sometimes I've pictured that. I hope that I am with my wife and we both are taken together.

[Traveler]

We do not have to wait for the Christ to return for two people standing next to one another can hear the words of a principle of a teaching of Christ and one will embrace it and the other in bewilderment wonder why anyone would try to live such a difficult principle.

The Traveler

[MrNirom]

We do not have to wait for the Christ to return for two people standing next to one another can hear the words of a principle of a teaching of Christ and one will embrace it and the other in bewilderment wonder why anyone would try to live such a difficult principle.

The Traveler

The reason I bring this up.. and I am surprised that no one else has either.. is this is the scripture that Christians feel defines and justifies the doctrine of the "Rapture". I am trying to refute it.

For those who don't know what the Rapture is.. it is a belief that prior to the "tribulations" phase of the 2nd comming.. the Lord takes all the righteous saved people off the earth to live with him in heaven. They call this heaven Paradise. And when Christ does this.. people just float up to meet him in the sky. So you could be driving down the road.. and all of a sudden the person sitting next to you.. floats away. Of course that tells you that you are now damned.

So anyway.. I was looking for some deep understanding of this scripture.

[prisonchaplain]

IMHO, you already have it. When interpreting Scripture, use the K.I.S.S. principle: Keep It Simple Silly! In other words, the Rapture may be legitimate. I'm not LDS, but could it be that the post-tribulation rapture fits into your theology? The belief is that the "snatching away," takes place just prior to the 2nd coming, and the Final Battle (as opposed to the view that it takes place before the Great Tribulation starts).

Personally, I do subscribe to the pre-tribulation view, and look forward to catching the first flight out! :-)

[Moksha]

I think of it like an away mission on Star Trek. When you have a large landing party, not everyone can be beamed aboard in the first wave. They are all beamed aboard in a matter of minutes, unless there is a transporter malfunction or there is a disturbance on the planet or some hostile aliens show up in orbit.

I can see where some people might mistake the transporter process for what they would term "rapturing".

[MrNirom]

IMHO, you already have it. When interpreting Scripture, use the K.I.S.S. principle: Keep It Simple Silly! In other words, the Rapture may be legitimate. I'm not LDS, but could it be that the post-tribulation rapture fits into your theology? The belief is that the "snatching away," takes place just prior to the 2nd coming, and the Final Battle (as opposed to the view that it takes place before the Great Tribulation starts).

Personally, I do subscribe to the pre-tribulation view, and look forward to catching the first flight out! :-)

I know that I believe the rapture is not a correct doctrine to believe in. And what worries me is that so many Christians are going to be waiting for either themselves or at least someone they know to disappear all of a sudden.

And as long as it doesn't happen.. they won't believe that tribulation is happening. And then they won't be prepared... and it will surprise them that their was no rapture.... or they will continue to wait for it.

Kinda like the Jews thinking Christ was to come in Glory in the Meridian of Time. He came.. but not the way they wanted or expected. And so.. they continue to wait.:)

[prisonchaplain]

MrNirom, those are all the concerns that post-tribulationists pose to pre-tribulationists. Supposedly we won't be ready for hardship, because we expect to escape. On the other hand, I'd contend that we're always ready, because Christ is our only true refuge. So, to use LDS parlance, "Do all that you can to be humanly ready," then rely on God for the rest (the other 99.9%).

BUT, as I suggested, the post-tribulation rapture does solve your concerns, since it includes the belief that Christians will have to endure a Tribulation, and may have to face martyrdom.

[Snow]

Here are two passages of scripture that I am trying to understand.. I gave you the links so you can see the verses in context. Can someone explain the interpretations to me.. Thanks.

Matthew 24

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Joseph Smith—Matthew 1

44 Then shall be fulfilled that which is written, that in the last days, two shall be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other left;

45 Two shall be grinding at the mill, the one shall be taken, and the other left;

The Oxford Bible Commentary asked if the righteous are taken to meet the Lord in the air or if the wicked are removed by angels and cast into the fire. The commentary then answers that the former is more likely as the pictures of angels taking the saints to meet the Son of Man was probably common in early Christianity.

[Justice]

Here are two passages of scripture that I am trying to understand.. I gave you the links so you can see the verses in context. Can someone explain the interpretations to me.. Thanks.

Matthew 24

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Joseph Smith—Matthew 1

44 Then shall be fulfilled that which is written, that in the last days, two shall be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other left;

45 Two shall be grinding at the mill, the one shall be taken, and the other left;

I have had this discussion with protestants who believe in the rapture many times. I always point them to the preceding scriptures:

Matthew 24:

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The first question you have to ask yourself is who is this scripture speaking of? It is making reference to the Second Coming and comparing it to Noah and the flood. With a close reading you will see it is speaking of the wicked, not the righteous.

they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark

Once you realize this scripture is speaking of the wicked being taken, or destroyed off the face of the earth, you realize it's not a rapture scripture at all. We have a great example of this in the Book of Mormon, shortly before the Lord appeared to them. The hard part is teaching this correctly to someone who has believed the opposite for many years, possibly taught the rapture as a child.

I believe there will be something similar to the rapture they teach. It is found here:

1 Thessalonians 4:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is not teaching rapture of the living, but the first resurrection of the dead. Obviously Paul would not be alive physically, but alive in the Lord.

The teaching of the Church is that the righteous, even those who are living, will be caught up in the air to meet Christ when He comes, but will accompany Him back to the earth where He will live and reign for 1,000 years.

Revelation 20:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

These are all New Testament scriptures and can be used to discuss this with anyone who believes in the Bible. This subject gets deep fast. I have found it best not to get too deep, though.

[MrNirom]

The Oxford Bible Commentary asked if the righteous are taken to meet the Lord in the air or if the wicked are removed by angels and cast into the fire. The commentary then answers that the former is more likely as the pictures of angels taking the saints to meet the Son of Man was probably common in early Christianity.

11 For I will reveal myself from heaven with power and great glory, with all the hosts thereof, and dwell in righteousness with men on earth a thousand years, and the wicked shall not stand.

So.. if all the Righteous leave.. the only ones left are the wicked? So how do we explain the above scripture and what it means?

[Guest Xzain]

If I may offer a direction of discussion:

I am not well-versed in this subject (although I was reading about it this morning- ironic, eh?) but I believe the doctrine of the gathering of Israel is inseperabely connected with the end days. It is my understanding that, at the very end, through processes that will last years, most of the righteous of the earth shall already be gathered together, because of the commandement to 'flee from Babylon'. In other words, (I believe) the world will get so bad that anyone, of any religion, who holds to true, righteous moral principles will be forced to flee the cities of the wicked or suffer death. Not everyone will be gathered together, though- hence JS-M 1:37:

37 And whoso treasureth up my word, shall not be deceived, for the Son of Man shall come, and he shall send his angels before him with the great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together the remainder of his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This will happen after the "abomination of desolation"- or, another siege of Jerusalem- in JS-M 1:32. The Savior's allusion to a fig tree in JS-M 1:38 leads me to believe that before the truly terrible events in the last days happen, the Saints who have "treasured up [God's] word" (JS-M 1:37) will already be gathered together, and the end times will be hard yet glorious.

Again, just my humble opinion. I post this only because I do not believe you'll find enough evidence in the Bible alone to 'refute' the doctrine of the Rapture; it simply isn't there. Hence the need for modern revelation.

For anyone else who might be interested, I highly recommend the entirety of 'Joseph Smith- Matthew' to anyone who is interested in the events of the end times. A link can be found here:

Joseph Smith—Matthew 1

[bjw]

Mr. Nirom,

I too have had problems with the rapture doctrine, even during my years as an EV. Most verses they use for it describe the 2nd coming, like the verses someone already posted in this thread, and you don't see "another" second coming mentioned in the Bible. I have found that most EVs that believe this doctrine are so conditioned to it that they think it is in the Bible and never bother to question it, and that concerns me as well.

I may be harsh here but I have considered that the doctrine may be Satanic in origin, in that Satan would not want people being prepared for his plans on the world so he fabricates a doctrine making people think they won't be here when it happens.

A case in point: I got in a discussion with my pentecostal aunt about the Xmark/Verichip Xmark - Solutions for HEALTHCARE > Infant Protection, Wander Prevention, Asset Tracking, Emergency Response and asked her if she thought that the Verichip made by Xmark, which allows people to pay by credit by a microchip implanted in the hand, could be a precursor to the mark of the beast. I showed her an article about it from the business section of a newspaper describing the product. She said that it is definitely not the mark because we can actually see this verichip now in pictures in a newspaper, and that all Christians will be gone before the mark of the beast is even developed, so that it couldn't be it. It's this type of circular reasoning that worries me, not so much that I believe the verichip is the mark of the beast (it may be, I don't know) but that they are so willing to accept whatever comes along because they think they are about to be whisked away from here. My cousin that goes to the same church even stopped voting because of this belief.

I myself subscribe to the "two-tribulations" theory and believe the tribulation passages in Revelation apply to our time as well as the biblical age, so I think it never hurts to always be prepared. I am just as concerned as you are though that people are using this doctrine as an excuse to not be prepared.

As for the two people in a field and one is taken with the other left, it doesn't say that person left is to go through a tribulation, that could signal the time for judgement, with the one person taken to a separate judgment. For people to infer a rapture is reading way much into the passage, IMHO.

[Vanhin]

From the Guide to The Scriptures

GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES

Second Coming of Jesus Christ

See also Armageddon; Gog; Jesus Christ; Magog; Signs of the Times

At the beginning of the Millennial Era, Christ will return to the earth. This event will mark the end of the mortal probation of this earth. The wicked will be removed from the earth and the righteous will be caught up in a cloud while the earth is cleansed. While no man knows exactly when Christ will come for the second time, he has given us signs to watch for that indicate the time is drawing near (Matt. 24; JS-M 1).

I know that my Redeemer shall stand at the latter day upon the earth, Job 19: 25. Unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue swear, Isa. 45: 23 (D&C 88: 104). The Son of Man came with the clouds of heaven, Dan. 7: 13 (Matt. 26: 64; Luke 21: 25-28). They shall look upon me whom they have pierced, Zech. 12: 10. One shall say, What are these wounds in thine hands? Zech. 13: 6 (D&C 45: 51). Who may abide the day of his coming? for he is like a refiner’s fire, Mal. 3: 2 (3 Ne. 24: 2; D&C 128: 24). The Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father, Matt. 16: 27 (Matt. 25: 31). Of that day and hour knoweth no man, but my Father only, Matt. 24: 36 (D&C 49: 7; JS-M 1: 38-48). This same Jesus shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven, Acts 1: 11. The Lord himself shall descend from heaven, 1 Thes. 4: 16. The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, 2 Pet. 3: 10. The Lord cometh with ten thousands of his Saints, Jude 1: 14. He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, Rev. 1: 7. Jesus will stand to judge the world, 3 Ne. 27: 14-18. Prepare ye, prepare ye, for the Lord is nigh, D&C 1: 12. I will reveal myself from heaven with power, and dwell on earth a thousand years, D&C 29: 9-12. Lift up your voice and cry repentance, preparing the way of the Lord for his second coming, D&C 34: 5-12. I am Jesus Christ, and I will suddenly come to my temple, D&C 36: 8 (D&C 133: 2). The day soon cometh that ye shall see me, and know that I am, D&C 38: 8. He that feareth me shall be looking for the signs of the coming of the Son of Man, D&C 45: 39. The face of the Lord shall be unveiled, D&C 88: 95. The great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, D&C 110: 16. When the Savior shall appear we shall see him as he is, D&C 130: 1. The Savior shall stand in the midst of his people and shall reign, D&C 133: 25. Who is this that cometh down from God in heaven with dyed garments, D&C 133: 46 (Isa. 63: 1).

96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him.

97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven.

98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God. (D&C 88:96-97)

That's what we believe will happen when Christ comes again.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

11 For I will reveal myself from heaven with power and great glory, with all the hosts thereof, and dwell in righteousness with men on earth a thousand years, and the wicked shall not stand.

So.. if all the Righteous leave.. the only ones left are the wicked? So how do we explain the above scripture and what it means?

That's simple. :) Once the earth is cleansed, the righteous come back. The wicked who are left on the earth will burn as stubble during the cleansing, and will thus be removed from the earth. (1 Nephi 22:15)

Regards,

Vanhin

[prisonchaplain]

Let me help those who wish to understand the mindset of pre-tribulation rapture believing evangelicals, since I am one. The key doctrine in the passages already mentioned is that we are to be ready for the IMMINENT return of Christ. It could come at any time, "like a thief in the night." The warning to be ready appears to be more a call to holiness, and to a close walk with God, and constant communion with the Holy Spirit, rather than prepared bunkers, rifles, provisions, etc.

We believe there is a 7-year Tribulation coming, the signs of trouble are very dire and direct. So, it is our understanding that the catching away, will be beforehand, totally unannounced. After all, once an Antichrist appears, and marks start to be given out, there's not much mystery left, is there?

I'm not expecting to convert folk over to my view...but in light of the call to holiness, to extreme faith, to remaining close to God, how one could suggest such a system of teaching was "Satanic," does indeed seem to be a bit over the top.

[Vanhin]

Let me help those who wish to understand the mindset of pre-tribulation rapture believing evangelicals, since I am one. The key doctrine in the passages already mentioned is that we are to be ready for the IMMINENT return of Christ. It could come at any time, "like a thief in the night." The warning to be ready appears to be more a call to holiness, and to a close walk with God, and constant communion with the Holy Spirit, rather than prepared bunkers, rifles, provisions, etc.

We believe there is a 7-year Tribulation coming, the signs of trouble are very dire and direct. So, it is our understanding that the catching away, will be beforehand, totally unannounced. After all, once an Antichrist appears, and marks start to be given out, there's not much mystery left, is there?

I'm not expecting to convert folk over to my view...but in light of the call to holiness, to extreme faith, to remaining close to God, how one could suggest such a system of teaching was "Satanic," does indeed seem to be a bit over the top.

Thanks prison chaplain. I actually agree with you for the most part. I personally don't see much difference in our understanding of the second coming of Christ. If anything it will be in the details, for which we have additional sources of information because of living prophets and modern revelation.

The scriptures already mentioned make it clear that some will be ready and will be caught up to meet Christ in the clouds, and others will not. It's just like the parable of the ten virgins.

I think our Guide to the Scriptures sums up our understanding of the second coming of Christ pretty well, complete will scripture references. I'm curious about what you think about it? I posted the whole thing in an earlier post. Here's the brief summary:

At the beginning of the Millennial Era, Christ will return to the earth. This event will mark the end of the mortal probation of this earth. The wicked will be removed from the earth and the righteous will be caught up in a cloud while the earth is cleansed. While no man knows exactly when Christ will come for the second time, he has given us signs to watch for that indicate the time is drawing near (Guide to the Scriptures: Second Coming of Jesus Christ)

Regards,

Vanhin

[Guest Xzain]

I'm not expecting to convert folk over to my view...but in light of the call to holiness, to extreme faith, to remaining close to God, how one could suggest such a system of teaching was "Satanic," does indeed seem to be a bit over the top.

I don't think bjw was saying the particular version of the Rapture doctrine you espouse was Satanic, prisonchaplain, but that some aspect of the pre-tribulational Rapture doctrine may have Satanic influences. (I think; I do not speak for bjw and I hope I am not misinterpereting him. If so, I apologize.)

The doctrine of pre-tribulation Rapture, as I understand it, can lead to two main different mindsets- one that is rooted in scripture, and one that is rooted in mainstream culture. The former would be the kind you believe in- where a call to holiness and communion with God is critical and plays a vibrant part in the life of every true follower of God. This belief creates an inner impetus to prepare oneself 'as a bride for the bridegroom', to study the scriptures and live their teachings. Such a view is noble and worthy of praise.

The second type of pre-tribulational Rapture doctrine is rooted in modern culture- not scripture (and has its roots from the devil himself, IMHO). It takes the belief of the Rapture and Easy Believism (Easy Grace; Easy Salvation- whatever you call it) and intertwines them. It creates the mindset that 'I am doing okay; I'm a good person; I don't need to study or prepare because I'm already saved; I'm good to do whatever I want'. Such a view encourages laziness, idolatry, and an eventual inner denial of the views one outwardly espresses. (By 'Easy Believism' I speak of paying lip service to the Lord without modeling your life after Him. It is the belief that outward expressions and a mere cognitive belief in Christ is sufficient for salvation.)

That is my understanding of the subject- I also have some evangelical friends who believe in one or the other 'forms' of pre-tribulational Rapture. It is my goal to clear up misunderstanding that may have resulted. I pray I did not add to the confusion.

[prisonchaplain]

I think our Guide to the Scriptures sums up our understanding of the second coming of Christ pretty well, complete will scripture references. I'm curious about what you think about it? I posted the whole thing in an earlier post. Here's the brief summary:

At the beginning of the Millennial Era, Christ will return to the earth. This event will mark the end of the mortal probation of this earth. The wicked will be removed from the earth and the righteous will be caught up in a cloud while the earth is cleansed. While no man knows exactly when Christ will come for the second time, he has given us signs to watch for that indicate the time is drawing near (Guide to the Scriptures: Second Coming of Jesus Christ)

Regards,

Vanhin

I find no controversy in this passage. :)

[prisonchaplain]

Xzain, I appreciate your post and agree that most any teaching, no matter how scripturally sound, can be twisted. The temptation of some, then, is to discard the sound teaching with the perversion of it. How ironic that in the early days of my movement, and of the latter day advent of rapture teaching (I'd argue that it too is a restoration doctrine), was a drive for greater missionary activity and more fervent gospel teaching. We were to bring the gospel to the utter most parts of the earth, so that Christ could indeed return! That some have turned the belief into a self-serving and sloth-promoting instruction is sad indeed.

[KosherXMorg]

Where does the scripture say the one being left is the bad guy? The rapture theory using these verses is a prime example of presumptive scriptural interpretation. The rapture is a satanic alternative to New Jerusalem. YWH has commanded believers to come together as one and build a place of refuge, not wait to be snatched away at the first sign of trouble. New Jerusalem is where those escaped out of the world will be protected.

[Guest Xzain]

Kosher-

Those who don't believe in the Restoration scriptures are, I believe, justified in believing in the Rapture- if they still hold to the doctrines of preperation, sanctification, and righteous living. While I agree with you about the correct doctrine being the gathering to Zion, I don't believe we can correctly label the entire gambit of varying Rapture doctrines as 'satanic'.

[prisonchaplain]

Where does the scripture say the one being left is the bad guy? The rapture theory using these verses is a prime example of presumptive scriptural interpretation. The rapture is a satanic alternative to New Jerusalem. YWH has commanded believers to come together as one and build a place of refuge, not wait to be snatched away at the first sign of trouble. New Jerusalem is where those escaped out of the world will be protected.

Your theory does not make sense, if there is a pre-tribulation rapture. After all, the "snatching away," precedes seven years of troubles, in which the world is ruled by an Antichrist, who issues a loyalty mark. Those who refuse the mark are beheaded. So...why would the unbelievers be taken away from this time of troubles?

[KosherXMorg]

Your theory does not make sense, if there is a pre-tribulation rapture. After all, the "snatching away," precedes seven years of troubles, in which the world is ruled by an Antichrist, who issues a loyalty mark. Those who refuse the mark are beheaded. So...why would the unbelievers be taken away from this time of troubles?

Your theory presumes the pre-trib rapture as fact. Maybe the verse is referring to the time of the 2nd coming when the wicked are burned (taken from the earth).