Can feminist and Mormon co-exist?

[BusyMom]

Do you think that the two can co-exist? Can an LDS Woman be a feminist?

[NeuroTypical]

A few weeks ago, a new family to the ward came to church, and the mom stood up and told us all she was a femist, and we could take her or leave her. I've seen her every week since then, so I assume we decided to take her.

There are a lot of ways to define "feminist". Depending on what that definition is, LDS belief is either very compatible, not compatible at all, or something in between.

LM

[Aphrodite]

A feminist in the church is different to any other feminist. A church feminist is probably any woman that wants to have a job outside the home for her own fulfilment. Any other feminists might shun relationships, campaign for womens rights etc. I think it is absolutely possible. I know several strong, career women who are members and they are strong members too. Perhaps I could be considered a feminist as I am not happy to sit at home doing crochet or crafts popping out babies for the rest of my life. I want kids, eventually but I also want a job. The thought of staying home all day makes me feel depressed. I could not do it. If that makes me a feminist then I suppose I am one. Oddly enough, from the worlds point of view I probably look like a traditionalist wife. Weird.

[Truegrits]

Loudmouth_Mormon:

There are a lot of ways to define "feminist".

I agree. I am not an extremist; but neither do I consider myself a "traditional" woman, nor a "traditional" Mormon. I think most of us are varying degrees of many things. I would hate for everyone to be cookie cutter formed.

(I know what I mean, even if I am not stating it well...:))

[Iggy]

Loudmouth_Mormon:

I agree. I am not an extremist; but neither do I consider myself a "traditional" woman, nor a "traditional" Mormon. I think most of us are varying degrees of many things. I would hate for everyone to be cookie cutter formed.

(I know what I mean, even if I am not stating it well...:))

I understood you perfectly- and I agree with you. I am not a cookie cutter person either.

I enjoyed DIY type of jobs around the house. At first it started out because 1st husband refused to do the necessary repairs and there was zero money to hire it done. So I taught myself how to remove a toilet and put in a new one, after I wrestled with trying to repair/replace the guts in the tank.

Then I graduated to removing the key-lock doorknobs and putting on new ones. The key broke off in the lock and I could not get it out. Even when I removed the knob it was jammed in there forever.

I discovered that I had a knack for household repairs, fix ups and such. Every year for vacation I went to my sister's home and did her household repairs, & painting the interior of her home.

Some of the sisters in the church thought this was mainly for the Men to do and not for a woman to do. Well, when the Man in the home won't do it or can't do it and there is no money to hire it done- and you are sick and tired of pouring a bucket of water down the toilet each time to flush it, and keeping a bucket under the drain of the kitchen sink to catch the small stream of water, and of having to tape your plugs to keep them from falling out of the sockets - then you either learn to do it yourself or you go nuts.

I learned how to do it myself. I also went to work at a Hardware store. I was in seventh heaven.

Oh, I know how to sew, knit, darn (I am a really poor darner too), cook (each year I get better and better at cooking), make bread from scratch, make cakes & cookies from scratch, etc.

My older sister calls me a Renaissance Woman- because I know how to do quite a variety of things from painting the interior of a house, to putting in new outlets and switches throughout the entire house, to making homemade bread, or dehydrating vegetables for my food storage.

I am rather limited now that my shoulder and hip joints are as bad as they are. I can no longer load and unload a pickup truck bed with 24-50 pound bags of soil amendments and then work said amendments into the garden.

I refuse to be button-holed into the "traditional female" role.

Before I married Husband #2- I asked him if he was intimidated by the fact that I had my own power tools and knew how to use them? He said No, that wouldn't intimidate him. I then asked him if he would be intimidated by the fact that I had my own kitchen work center and knew how to use it? He said, "I'll rent a larger U-haul- I sure don't want you leaving any of your "tools" behind!"

By The Way, BusyMom, what definition of feminist are you referring to?

(not being confrontational here, I am just wondering)

[Truegrits]

Iggy:

I refuse to be button-holed into the "traditional female" role.

Exactly. We are capable of so much more!

And for those that are happy in tradition...great!

Iggy:

Before I married Husband #2- I asked him if he was intimidated by the fact that I had my own power tools and knew how to use them? He said No, that wouldn't intimidate him. I then asked him if he would be intimidated by the fact that I had my own kitchen work center and knew how to use it? He said, "I'll rent a larger U-haul- I sure don't want you leaving any of your "tools" behind!"

Well, he's no dummy! :lol:

[skalenfehl]

I have no objection to feminists. They deserve their measure of joy.

Matt. 6: 21

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

[BusyMom]

I guess I ask because I have heard it said that they can not co-exist but I disagree with this. I believe that when a society meets the needs of its women then the society functions better. I can not understand for the life of me why a man makes more money for the same job, or why the care of animals is paid better than care of children. I believe that political action is significant for making things better for women and I think that women should have the right to define their roles. I think that there are so many great opportunities and the ability to coordinate and participate in a profession while having a family is better for many women (this is often dependent, however, on the amount of education a woman has obtained). I think that support is about meeting the needs of the one being served, not some pre-assigned, pre-defined model.

I am asking because I feel very drawn to the feminist model in the counseling profession and helping women to find their strength and to understand their problems from a holistic perspective and not just as an interpersonal failing or weakness. I just watned to see how others felt.

[Misshalfway]

I suppose it depends on your definition of feminist.

I think that God is very much interested in the interests of women. I think that God champions the causes of women and am convinced that the tenants of the gospel absolutely promote the equity of women. I think that we live on the earth though. That means living and dealing with cultural forces that sometimes have truncated and suppressed the rights of women. Is it wrong to want equitable rights and treatment for women thru-out this world and fight for justice and restitution? No. I don't see anywhere in the gospel where such participation is a problem. I think it is the over-zealous or out of balance positions that feminists sometimes take that are in conflict with the kingdom of God. And in those cases, I would say that yes, they wouldn't be able to live together for long.

[skalenfehl]

I can not understand for the life of me why a man makes more money for the same job, or why the care of animals is paid better than care of children.

"He who has the gold makes the rules."

A vast majority of politicians, corporate and business owners and employers are men. They are the greedy, manipulative power hungry figures of the world. Women generally aren't as shrewd, treacherous and greedy or on the lighter side as entrepreneurial and risk taking as men are. This is likely why men tend to be the ones who build businesses and make more money, etc.

[Bookmeister]

You know, a long time ago I thought it was about dividing the work so that everything would get done. Then I realized that there's often so much to do that limiting abilities or skills on the basis of gender sure seemed to be awfully stupid.

Which is why my wife knows how to fix things, evaluate stuff at the hardware store, work outside the home, drive rental trucks, and oversee projects (she also knows how to shoot a firearm and go camping without electricity...LOL). On the other hand, I know how to (and do) cook, do the laundry, clean, vacuum, scrub showers and toilets, do grocery shopping that doesn't involve chips, beef jerky, and salsa.

It's just never occurred to me to think that there are limitations based on gender (except for the occasional thing that simply requires more muscle mass).

And yet, somehow, she doesn't think she's a feminist...but I know better...LOL.

[mightynancy]

helping women to find their strength and to understand their problems from a holistic perspective and not just as an interpersonal failing or weakness

This sounds completely compatible with the gospel. I think that "good" feminism sees women as having equal worth (and I'm not talking about money, but pay equity is a part of it) as men have. We are all sons and daughters of God. We should use our own individual strengths and weaknesses to further His work. "Bad" feminism seeks to blame men for every ill, rather than working toward real, equitable solutions.

My daughter is struggling with the Am I a Tomboy? angst. She is rejecting some things that she is viewing as "girl" (girl drama, fickleness, Disney Princesses) and embracing things she views as "boy" (sports, animals, camping, American Gladiators). Yet she still subscribes to the No Bow No Go philosophy of hair accessorizing. It's very complicated. I point out that liking sports is neither masculine nor feminine - it's just sporty. She's still working it through.

[Elphaba]

You might enjoy this blog: Feminist Mormon Housewives. These are extremely intelligent women who are believing members, and whose faith is very important to them.

But much of the time they do not fit the mold either. Conversely, some fit it quite nicely.

It is an interesting array of women, but what I love about it is that most subjects are not taboo. The discussions are usually very respectful and diverse.

Elphaba

[WANDERER]

THis is an interesting question to ask.

I occasionally click onto the blog Elphie recommended cause I was interested in the perception of stereotypes and how much it was a perception or not. Seems like a variety of individuals to me.

I'm not really all that into feminism...Yes I have a career, am independent, do everything for myself and so on. It's not called feminism...it's called life. People do what they have to do. The only thing that bothers me is not being allowed to do what I have to do. Simple really.

I get bothered by the concept that women shouldn't work and provide for their children when they need to put food on the table. Idealistically, we'd all love to be able to stay home and care for our kids. Food and safe shelter is kind of a staple.

Someone said to me that I shouldn't drive two hours on a country road by myself into town: hey, I need groceries; I have a mobile phone; roadside assist is available for the whole area; I'm not stupid; and I don't have the luxury of having a hubby.... and how exactly is it safer for a guy? Um....really quite funny that two hours on a road should be dangerous when I travelled 6 hours on a one lane inland highway without any sign of civilisation or buildings whatsoever in the outback, or 24 hours to get home to family for Xmas and vacations....but thankyou for sharing. Nope, not a guy, a woman my age...but what can you do...that is her reality...and she didn't mean to offend. That is how she lives.

BUT

occasionally I wish people would spend a lot more time having the same stupid conversations with guys on why they shouldn't drive a car alone or get a job...just to hear how inane it can be.

I'm not a feminist. Just practical. That should be able to coexist anywhere where people have commonsense. You would think.

[Fiannan]

Walk for Life West Coast, Part 3

As long as these types of women control what is considered feminism in the USA then the agenda of feminism is contrary to LDS thought and practices.

[WANDERER]

A short summary of Finian's link:

What you will find there:

:hippie:An annecdotal account of Zombie's attendance at a protest rally: the prochoice vs the prolifers.

We've decided to solve the abortion debate the old-fashioned way: with a Battle of the Babes!

The article then goes on to prove with photographic evidence that feminists are not babes and prolifers are.

Would you rather be attractive or a feminist?

[Fiannan]

Totally immaterial -- are the feminists pictured above demonstrating in a public place in favor of abortion? Doesn't matter who took the picture and hosts the web site.

[BusyMom]

Abortion is a specific issue. Feminism is a philosophical view of thinking about women's issues. You do not have to be a feminist to support abortion nor do you have to support abortion to be a feminist. So, you're bringing up a hot button issue to draw the attention away from the bottom line: Is the philosophy of feminism compatible with Mormonism?

Edited June 10, 2008 by BusyMom
typos

[Fiannan]

Abortion is a specific issue. Feminism is a philosophical view of thinking about women's issues. You do not have to be a feminist to support abortion nor do you have to support abortion to be a feminist. So, you're bringing up a hot button issue to draw the attention away from the bottom line: Is the philosophy of feminism compatible with Mormonism?

Nope, if you run for political office in the USA and state that you are pro-life and against gay marriage and that you are a feminist you will be impaled by the leading feminist groups and their supporters in the media. As the word has evolved in the USA it no more means fighting for equality of opportunity any more than being a "liberal" means you support the economic liberal views of Adam Smith or the social libertarian views of John Locke.

[LegendadryPerc]

Supporting abortion and supporting laws that make abortion legal, are two different things in some people's minds. I would dare say there are several members who vote to keep abortion legal.

The church is not about political leanings, but about morals and priciples. I have been in wards that consisted mostly of feminists, and I have been in wards that consisted mostly of women is situations that, if I were them, I would consider myself abused.

I agree that for most members it would depend on the definition of "feminist". There is a stereotype of feminists being pro-going to work at some big business company in high hills and a mini skirt. At least that is the way I envision them in my mind, lol. What I consider true feminism (yes, I probably fall in this category), is the Right to go to work in a big business with mini skirt and high hills, but also the Right not to. True feminism to me is freedom. There are many feminists who are now fighting for womens rights to stay home with their kids. To me, it's not about what stereotype one fits, but the right to choose for oneself what one wants to do with life. Only then are women truly free from oppression.

[Fiannan]

Supporting abortion and supporting laws that make abortion legal, are two different things in some people's minds. I would dare say there are several members who vote to keep abortion legal.

If a member is active and votes in favor of legalized abortion I think that is an extreme contradiction. It may be akin to when Ezra Taft Benson said it would be hard to be a liberal Democrat and an active Mormon. Heck, even Dirty Harry Reid votes against abortion.

[pushka]

What a refreshing thread! :)

Weren't LDS women in Utah some of the forerunners of Women getting the vote?

[Guest Xzain]

Wisdom is justified of all her children. What one calls oneself is not important; a woman can certainly be a self-proclaimed feminist and be well within the behavioral norm of worthy Church membership. I agree with Fiannan that the common idea of 'feminist' has gone beyond merely wishing for equality for women- but not all feminists believe in the packaged ideals most feminist groups embrace. I certainly want to marry a woman who would fight for the equal rights of women.

My mother would be considered a 'feminist' by many- raising my little sister alone, able to do all the things the stereotypical American male can (in many cases better than most men)- yet she would rather be a stay-at-home mom, getting an education and then working from the home while being able to do home improvement and service projects for others. The beauty of the women of the church is that there is such a diverse group represented that when they all meet for Relief Society, there meets a dynamic group of capable women hailng from all walks of life and possessing unique talents and abilities- not a homogenous assortment of inept individuals. I think we have the doctrines and practices of the Church to thank for that truth.

Fiannan's abortion link is so very interesting... it deserves a thread of its own. Oh, how I would love to discuss that properly...

[Guest Xzain]

What a refreshing thread! :)

Weren't LDS women in Utah some of the forerunners of Women getting the vote?

Heck yeah! The suffrage movement was alive and well in Utah as well- despite many suffragist groups from other states trying (perhaps succeeding; I forget) to silence them because they supported polygamy. Elphaba probably knows a lot more about it- she seems to know quite a bit about Church history.

[mightynancy]

I agree with Xzain - this discussion is pointless unless we all use a common definition of "feminist."