Anti-LDS sites

[Snow]

Yikes, this is a tricky question and I do not want to get into too inflammitory of territory. Here is a safe and I think non-controversial example. Once upon a time, the Church denied any Mormons took part in the Mountain Meadows incident. Juanita Brooks was even Xed for writing about it. The Tanners had it in all it details. Now however, since last year, the Church released a updated mea culpa type admission as to what happened, vindicating Juanita Brooks and confirming for the most part the Tanner's account.

Hope that helps. I will need to think about other safe examples.

I suspect that you know that most of your entire post is completely false.

1. Jaunita Brooks was not excommunicated, just the opposite - she was a life long member.

2. Jaunita Brooks, faithful LDS scholar, wrote Mountain Meadow Massacre in 1950, long before the Tanners said word one on the subject. Gerald Tanner was only about 12 at the time and still LDS.

3. I am aware of no original work the Tanners did on MMM. Most of their work seems to come straight from LDS scholar Juanita Brooks or those like David Bigler at Utah State University.

4. The Church was aware that, and admitted that Mormons were involved a century before the Tanners started quoting LDS scholar Jaunita Brooks.

[KosherXMorg]

As an "x-mo" I can positively state I have felt the Spirit in the LDS church...

and in a Restoration Branch

and in a Messianic Congregation

and in a mega-church

and watching Jesse Duplantis

and reading Max Lucado

and listening to Christian music stations

etc...

Edited June 25, 2008 by KosherXMorg
grammar

[prisonchaplain]

I know you didn't ask me, but ...

Step #1: eliminate all paid Seminary and Institute teaching positions. Do it all on a volunteer church-calling basis. No more priestcraft within the Church!!

..um, did I come on a bit too strong?

HiJolly

Just an outside thought--aren't seminary and Institute classes a type of "para-church" ministry? In other words, though they are clearly church-sponsored, they take place outside the confines of typical ward activities. So, if you disallow remuneration for these positions, will BYU professors be next?

[prisonchaplain]

Agreed and understood. But what will talking and teaching about all the details ever do to stop the anti movement? I mean wasn't that your original idea? That church headquarters should do more to stop the anti's?

But why the all or nothing approach? Perhaps carefully explaining controversial aspects of your church's history--at least to members who show an interest in the "meat of the Word," would at least diminish some of the effectiveness of outside proselytizing efforts. "Oh yes, we learned about that in church...but it's not the way you make it sound..."

[prisonchaplain]

I'm concerned about anti-intellectualism in the Christian world, in general. It is particularly strong in more conservative movements. In the founding years of my church's graduate theological school, many members and pastors were strongly praying for its demise. Thankfully, God answered the prayers of our more balanced members.

As it relates to "Anti" sites and difficult aspects of church history or teachings, better to confront the issues, and examine them honestly and brutally, than to sugar-coat them, or worse, to declare any discussion "dangerously apostate-like."

Debate about when, how and who should study these matters are legitimate, but the "Never mind, it's not important, just believe, just pray, just stick to the basics," is frankly an unscriptural approach, imho.

[Jenamarie]

But why the all or nothing approach? Perhaps carefully explaining controversial aspects of your church's history--at least to members who show an interest in the "meat of the Word," would at least diminish some of the effectiveness of outside proselytizing efforts. "Oh yes, we learned about that in church...but it's not the way you make it sound..."

This is what I was getting at. Thank you.

[Snow]

Well, in my personal experience, I've had to dig through lds.org searches to try to find the church's answers to some of the controversial issues presented by Anti's. And some of the "newest" articles I read on some of the topics were decades old. I know that the reason for Joseph Smith's imprisonment leading up to his murder (ordering the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor) was never mentioned in any of the church history lessons I attended growing up.

Why are you searching LDS.org for answers to controversial issues - by which I assume you mean and as your post implies - historical issues. If you want answers to historical questions, doesn't it seem reasonable to search historical sources instead?

I suppose that what you are saying is that the Church should stop focusing on some one or more of it's current focuses and instead focus on surveying the historical sources and plating them up for you in a tasty and convenient serving. Why you should want that is a bit of a mystery.

I myself think that the Church ought to spend it's efforts preaching the gospel, ministering to the sick and needy, building up Zion etc... that is, just what it it currently doing.

As it so happens, the large majority of historical scholarship comes from LDS sources, much of that published by the Church through Deseret Books, FARMS, and even MacMillan Publishing. Those that wish to study history will occasionally have to read a book, as opposed to googling the internet.

[Jenamarie]

I was searching LDS.org as *one source* to the answer for my questions, because I wanted to hear "their" side of it.

And I don't think the church would need to divert much effort from gospel-preaching efforts to address these things. My ward is having a six-week "family relations" class, for six couples at a time, for the next year or so, during Sunday School hour. The church has all sorts of these "mini programs" that it does in wards that show an interest in it. Why not one that goes deeper into church history? Or an Institute class, with a manual, that goes into it? Why can't the church preach the gospel AND talk about it's history? It does lots of not-quiet-gospel stuff all the time.

[Elphaba]

Could you give an example of these "legends" Moksha? I've heard them referred to before, but never heard one specifically mentioned. You could PM me an example if you'd rather. :)

Here’s one: In 1848, the Latter-day Saints’ bountiful crops were reason to give thanks to God. Then, crickets swarmed the crops, eating everything in site.

Again, this was 1848, barely a year after Brigham had entered the valley, so this was the Saints’ very first crop, and they believed it would feed them through the winter.

But their faith in their crops was dashed when crickets swarmed the Saints’ crops. Soon the Saints were utterly despondent over the invasion. They did everything they could think of to stop the crickets, but nothing worked

Then came huge flocks of gulls, who not only ate every cricket in site, but actually regurgitated the crickets so they could then eat more of them. Soon, the crickets were gone, and the crops were saved.

Unfortunately, while this is a nice faith-promoting story, it is not an entirely accurate one.

In “Mormons, Crickets, and Gulls: A New Look at an Old Story," Utah Historical Quarterly, Summer 1970, Vol. 38, 224-39, William Hartley provides perspective to the “Miracle of the Gulls”:

1) The Saints believed the gulls were sent by God just to save their crops. In fact, the crickets come around every eight years or so, as do the gulls. The gulls are natural enemies to various insects including crickets.

2) The Saints believed the gulls' vomiting up the crickets was God’s way of destroying as many crickets as possible, but it turns out gulls habitually regurgitate the indigestible parts of insects they have swallowed. So what the Saints observed was actually the gulls' natural feeding process.

3) The gulls did not arrive until after severe cricket damage had already occurred in 1848. So the miraculous survival of their crops is also a myth, though, by the time the gulls came, of course the Saints were grateful for any crops that survived.

4) In 1848, Mormon crops were already seriously damaged by three enemies--frost, crickets, and drought. The gulls dealt with only one problem and too late at that.

5) Contemporaries, including newspapers, diaries and official Church correspondence, did not write of the event until a year or so later, when it was then given “miracle” status.

6) Since 1848, gulls have frequently feasted on crickets and other insects, making the 1848 encounter hardly unique.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Like other popular accounts made by members of the early Church, important and historical events attributed to God, such as the “miracle of the gulls” of 1848, have been oversimplified, improved upon, and ultimately made a legend. The truth is the Saints barely survived that winter. (In fact, some Saints begged Brigham to stop new Saints from emigrating to Salt Lake City, as there was not enough food to go around.)

The truth is, the cricket’s invasion, as well as the gulls’ feast, was not an unusual event, and in fact, it would have been surprising had it not happened.

However, I can certainly see why the Saints thought the gulls were a miracle. I can only imagine what the white flocks looked like to the Saints when the gulls started gorging themselves on what had become their mortal enemy.

Elphaba

Edited June 25, 2008 by Elphaba

[Snow]

Here’s one: In 1848, the Latter-day Saints’ bountiful crops were reason to give thanks to God. Then, crickets swarmed the crops, eating everything in site.

Again, this was 1848, barely a year after Brigham had entered the valley, so this was the Saints’ very first crop, and they believed it would feed them through the winter.

But their faith in their crops was dashed when crickets swarmed the Saints’ crops. Soon the Saints were utterly despondent over the invasion. They did everything they could think of to stop the crickets, but nothing worked

Then came huge flocks of gulls, who not only ate every cricket in site, but actually regurgitated the crickets so they could then eat more of them. Soon, the crickets were gone, and the crops were saved.

Unfortunately, while this is a nice faith-promoting story, it is not an entirely accurate one.

In “Mormons, Crickets, and Gulls: A New Look at an Old Story," Utah Historical Quarterly, Summer 1970, Vol. 38, 224-39, William Hartley provides perspective to the “Miracle of the Gulls”:

1) The Saints believed the gulls were sent by God just to save their crops. In fact, the crickets come around every eight years or so, as do the gulls. The gulls are natural enemies to various insects including crickets.

2) The Saints believed the gulls' vomiting up the crickets was God’s way of destroying as many crickets as possible, but it turns out gulls habitually regurgitate the indigestible parts of insects they have swallowed. So what the Saints observed was actually the gulls' natural feeding process.

3) The gulls did not arrive until after severe cricket damage had already occurred in 1848. So the miraculous survival of their crops is also a myth, though, by the time the gulls came, of course the Saints were grateful for any crops that survived.

4) In 1848, Mormon crops were already seriously damaged by three enemies--frost, crickets, and drought. The gulls dealt with only one problem and too late at that.

5) Contemporaries, including newspapers, diaries and official Church correspondence, did not write of the event until a year or so later, when it was then given “miracle” status.

6) Since 1848, gulls have frequently feasted on crickets and other insects, making the 1848 encounter hardly unique.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Like other popular accounts made by members of the early Church, important and historical events attributed to God, such as the “miracle of the gulls” of 1848, have been oversimplified, improved upon, and ultimately made a legend. The truth is the Saints barely survived that winter. (In fact, some Saints begged Brigham to stop new Saints from emigrating to Salt Lake City, as there was not enough food to go around.)

The truth is, the cricket’s invasion, as well as the gulls’ feast, was not an unusual event, and in fact, it would have been surprising had it not happened.

However, I can certainly see why the Saints thought the gulls were a miracle. I can only imagine what the white flocks looked like to the Saints when the gulls started gorging themselves on what had become their mortal enemy.

Elphaba

Well.... at least according to William G. Hartley.

[Snow]

I was searching LDS.org as *one source* to the answer for my questions, because I wanted to hear "their" side of it.

And I don't think the church would need to divert much effort from gospel-preaching efforts to address these things. My ward is having a six-week "family relations" class, for six couples at a time, for the next year or so, during Sunday School hour. The church has all sorts of these "mini programs" that it does in wards that show an interest in it. Why not one that goes deeper into church history? Or an Institute class, with a manual, that goes into it? Why can't the church preach the gospel AND talk about it's history? It does lots of not-quiet-gospel stuff all the time.

The Church does talk about it's history. The amount of LDS scholarship on LDS history dwarfs (by a long, long shot) the historical scholarship of practically every other Christian denomination save Catholicism. In addition to the many books, articles, and publications of LDS history, the Church teaches LDS history, in depth, in it's universities, and sponsors symposiums and the like in number of venues. Last year I went to several such Church sponsored symposiums where the very most controversial topics were freely discussed by the Church's (and world's) top experts on the subject matter.

If you are waiting to be spoon-fed, your in the wrong religion. We value intelligence, but you have to earn it.

[Jenamarie]

The Church does talk about it's history. The amount of LDS scholarship on LDS history dwarfs (by a long, long shot) the historical scholarship of practically every other Christian denomination save Catholicism. In addition to the many books, articles, and publications of LDS history, the Church teaches LDS history, in depth, in it's universities, and sponsors symposiums and the like in number of venues. Last year I went to several such Church sponsored symposiums where the very most controversial topics were freely discussed by the Church's (and world's) top experts on the subject matter.

If you are waiting to be spoon-fed, your in the wrong religion. We value intelligence, but you have to earn it.

I'm not waiting to be spoon fed. I live in a part of the country where access to LDS scholarship stuff islimited, except for FARMS and FAIR, which I also perused, although I took their stuff with a grain of salt, since they're not "officially" a church entity. I'm an hour away from the closest Deseret Book, and major university. Other than "Time Out for Women" I haven't heard any "symposiums" announced in my area, and I don't have cable. I guess I just wish they had a way for a person to study in-depth the history of the church without it costing a bunch of money to buy these scholarly books, go to these symposiums, or watch these cable shows. Not everyone has the funds for that kind of thing, even if they have the genuine desire.

[Snow]

I know you didn't ask me, but ...

Step #1: eliminate all paid Seminary and Institute teaching positions. Do it all on a volunteer church-calling basis. No more priestcraft within the Church!!

..um, did I come on a bit too strong?

HiJolly

Brilliant. Now let's talk about implementation. In most places Seminary teachers are early morning teachers, completely voluntary, so apparently the Church already agrees with you. In Utah, however, Seminary teachers are often full-time, teaching classes throughout the day as is done with Institute teachers.

Do you suggest the Church fire them all and then solicit replacements that either work-nights at paid jobs or are on welfare?

Why would the Church be better off without professional educators?

... by the way, you are misusing the word "priestcraft."

[Snow]

I'm not waiting to be spoon fed. I live in a part of the country where access to LDS scholarship stuff islimited, except for FARMS and FAIR, which I also perused, although I took their stuff with a grain of salt, since they're not "officially" a church entity. I'm an hour away from the closest Deseret Book, and major university. Other than "Time Out for Women" I haven't heard any "symposiums" announced in my area, and I don't have cable. I guess I just wish they had a way for a person to study in-depth the history of the church without it costing a bunch of money to buy these scholarly books, go to these symposiums, or watch these cable shows. Not everyone has the funds for that kind of thing, even if they have the genuine desire.

I order books on the internet and practically any book I could ever want is delivered to my doors within days. To save funds, I often buy them used, at a fraction of the cost.

As for whether FARMS is reliable... it's authors are legitimate scholars, often world-class scholars on their topic matter. Usually they are far more educated in their areas of expertise than any local or general church authority... including the Brethren.

As for FAIR - I find much of their newer work to be very encouraging - and quite good, but there is a difference between amateur volunteers and credentialed scholars.

[Jenamarie]

I order books on the internet and practically any book I could ever want is delivered to my doors within days. To save funds, I often buy them used, at a fraction of the cost.

As for whether FARMS is reliable... it's authors are legitimate scholars, often world-class scholars on their topic matter. Usually they are far more educated in their areas of expertise than any local or general church authority... including the Brethren.

As for FAIR - I find much of their newer work to be very encouraging - and quite good, but there is a difference between amateur volunteers and credentialed scholars.

Cheap books still cost money. I've read some FARMS and FAIR articles that have literally made me roll my eyes (please don't ask me to reference which ones, this was well over a year ago and I honestly don't remember). Sometimes the language was down right condesending to the "detractors" they were addressing, and they glossed over things or dismissed things on "heresay" then in their next breath refered to a "heresay" that was in their favor as "evidence". This wasn't true of all of the articles, but enough that it made me take the other articles with a grain of salt.

But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree that some people are "waiting to be spoon fed". I think some people just genuinely don't know it's "out there" for the taking, because it's not talked about in church. (I have *never* heard FARMS or FAIR mentioned in a Sunday meeting when a controversial topic came up)

[Moksha]

Juanita was NEVER excommunicated....she was frankly treated shabbily...but she wasn't ex'd.

Me thinks you've been hanging around too many LDS Historians, sniffing the varnish they use on those legends....

I was mistaking Juanita for Fawn Brodie. My bad. Perhaps it was the varnish fumes...

Moksha...stick to your second rate humor and yuck yucks.....

Critics!!!

[Maureen]

I suppose that what you are saying is that the Church should stop focusing on some one or more of it's current focuses and instead focus on surveying the historical sources and plating them up for you in a tasty and convenient serving. Why you should want that is a bit of a mystery.

I myself think that the Church ought to spend it's efforts preaching the gospel, ministering to the sick and needy, building up Zion etc... that is, just what it it currently doing.

The Church does talk about it's history. The amount of LDS scholarship on LDS history dwarfs (by a long, long shot) the historical scholarship of practically every other Christian denomination save Catholicism. In addition to the many books, articles, and publications of LDS history, the Church teaches LDS history, in depth, in it's universities, and sponsors symposiums and the like in number of venues. Last year I went to several such Church sponsored symposiums where the very most controversial topics were freely discussed by the Church's (and world's) top experts on the subject matter.

Snow, I'm a little confused - on one hand you're saying why should the Church offer members historical information, when it should stick with the basics; and on the other hand you're saying they do just that - teach LDS history.

Why not just offer its members a full balance of gospel, history (isn't the JS story history?), ministering, fellowship, etc. Why make excuses? Ignorance isn't always blissful. If its informative and beneficial in the long run, then its all good.

M.

[Elphaba]

Well.... at least according to William G. Hartley.

Now there's the Snow I know and love.

A simple Google search provides enough information about Professor Hartley to think him credible, including his involvement in the Mormon History Association.

Or is it that he contributed to NABofM that concerns you?

>Sarcastic comments about Snow I thought I should remove until he has actually locked and loaded.>

(It just occurred to me: Why isn't that "loaded and locked"?)

Here are two other comments about the incident:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The gulls helped stem the tide of cricket devastations their coming been regarded as a miracle by many, although little was said about it at the time. Perhaps the fact that the frost had destroyed so much and that the gulls the gulls left before the crickets were eliminated muted the Saints' enthusiasm. Similar aid by the sea gulls in subsequent years has all but been ignored in Utah folklore."

Utah's History, by Richard D. Poll / Thomas G. Alexander / Eugene E. Campbell / David E. Miller Brigham young University Press 1977. Page 126 - 127

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The Mormons, after a fashion, prayed and fought, and fought and prayed, but to no purpose. The 'Black Philistines" mowed their way even with the ground, leaving it as if touched with an acid or burnt by fire."

(Thomas L. Kane, The Mormons (Philadelphia, 1850), p. 66.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is all of the information I have at my fingertips, as my laptop is STILL at the manufacturer. In fact, I'm not really sure why this is saved on this computer. Obviously I did a search sometime in the past, but I don't remember, because I HATE THIS COMPUTER!

I know there is a Dialogue or Sunstone contribution about this as well, but I suspect it is Professor Hartley's essay. Frankly, I'm too hot and cranky to look it up right now. I will tomorrow if anyone is interested.

So do I still owe you $5?

Elphaba

[VisionOfLehi]

Ah, how great is God to think so far in advance to establish the feeding cycle of crickets and gulls so as to provide a faith-building story for Saints in the pioneer and latter days.

He's got so many corners covered it's absolutely amazing!

[Elphaba]

Moksha...stick to your second rate humor and yuck yucks.....

Oh the hypocrisy.

Elphaba

[Snow]

Now there's the Snow I know and love.

A simple Google search provides enough information about Professor Hartley to think him credible, including his involvement in the Mormon History Association.

Or is it that he contributed to NABofM that concerns you?

>Sarcastic comments about Snow I thought I should remove until he has actually locked and loaded.>

(It just occurred to me: Why isn't that "loaded and locked"?)

Here are two other comments about the incident:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The gulls helped stem the tide of cricket devastations their coming been regarded as a miracle by many, although little was said about it at the time. Perhaps the fact that the frost had destroyed so much and that the gulls the gulls left before the crickets were eliminated muted the Saints' enthusiasm. Similar aid by the sea gulls in subsequent years has all but been ignored in Utah folklore."

Utah's History, by Richard D. Poll / Thomas G. Alexander / Eugene E. Campbell / David E. Miller Brigham young University Press 1977. Page 126 - 127

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The Mormons, after a fashion, prayed and fought, and fought and prayed, but to no purpose. The 'Black Philistines" mowed their way even with the ground, leaving it as if touched with an acid or burnt by fire."

(Thomas L. Kane, The Mormons (Philadelphia, 1850), p. 66.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is all of the information I have at my fingertips, as my laptop is STILL at the manufacturer. In fact, I'm not really sure why this is saved on this computer. Obviously I did a search sometime in the past, but I don't remember, because I HATE THIS COMPUTER!

I know there is a Dialogue or Sunstone contribution about this as well, but I suspect it is Professor Hartley's essay. Frankly, I'm too hot and cranky to look it up right now. I will tomorrow if anyone is interested.

So do I still owe you $5?

Elphaba

I've read the article. I think it is very good and that he is likely correct but as good as it was I do not labor under the misconception that his work is the only and final word on the matter or that he captured all the relevant information and presented free of any bias or inaccuracy.

... it's up to $5.15 now.

[Snow]

Cheap books still cost money. I've read some FARMS and FAIR articles that have literally made me roll my eyes (please don't ask me to reference which ones, this was well over a year ago and I honestly don't remember). Sometimes the language was down right condesending to the "detractors" they were addressing, and they glossed over things or dismissed things on "heresay" then in their next breath refered to a "heresay" that was in their favor as "evidence". This wasn't true of all of the articles, but enough that it made me take the other articles with a grain of salt.

FARMS Review of Books treats often treats contemptible works with contempt. One might wish that they would stick to an unemtional treatment but frankly much of the polemical stuff out there is not written with good intentions and deserves very little respect or serious consideration.

On the other hand, serious works of high caliber scholarship, even if critical toward the Church are treated seriously and with respect.

But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree that some people are "waiting to be spoon fed". I think some people just genuinely don't know it's "out there" for the taking, because it's not talked about in church. (I have *never* heard FARMS or FAIR mentioned in a Sunday meeting when a controversial topic came up)

I'd say that someone who is not aware that a scholar or intellectual community is out there and accessible to those that seek it are either 1, uninterested, or 2, waiting to be spoon-fed. Otherwise they'd be out there studying and researching like the rest of us who do.

Finally - yes, books cost money, even if it's a few dollars. If you want to be educated and knowledgeable, you have to invest in yourself. As good as the internet is, or as commendable as Church education is, if you are serious, you'll have to commit a few bucks.

[WANDERER]

I don't live in an insulated world/or perhaps I live in a VERY insulated world LOL...therefore I need knowledge and skills for the world in which I live. I don't know a single LDS member (aside from this forum) and nor have I ever met one, besides the mishys ...and the last time I came across a pair was nigh on 17 years ago. So in unusual circumstances, off I trundle....

I don't really have any comment on the wisdom of it...many people would perhaps tell me I am unwise...LDS, anti-LDS and non-LDS...it seems that they are in universal agreement despite the many things they wholeheartedly disagree upon. How ironic. LOL.

[Casslan]

Jolly...I grew up in a family that possesed 5 peep stones, one allegedly used by the Prophet himself. I have in a special box, 2 of those peep stones on display. I'll confess, they make many of my LDS friends very nervous.

Is it possible to post a photo of the peep stones please? I am rather curious?

[Guest User-Removed]

As an "x-mo" I can positively state I have felt the Spirit in the LDS church...

and in a Restoration Branch

and in a Messianic Congregation

and in a mega-church

and watching Jesse Duplantis

and reading Max Lucado

and listening to Christian music stations

etc...

What??????

It didn't come to you eating Green Jell-O?....Consuming vast quantities of Funeral Potatoes???...It didn't come with every bottle of Fry Sauce purchased??

bwahahahahahahahahaha...I'm only messin wid ya....