The Cross

[scoville]

The reason we do not use the cross as a central symbol in our church is because Christ gave no instruction to a prophet to do so. Since it is His church, and since he leads it, we only do what He says in regard to the church.

We should not view the symbol of the cross as something less than holy. We do not exclude it from our art or speech or writings. Paul used it a lot in his writings. However, as you have probably heard, we do not see it as the main focus of our joy.

There is real purpose in explaining why we "don't use the cross." Some people focus on sin and death and the melancholy of the death of our lord as their salvation (I am referring to personal aquaintances of mine). It is important that the Savior's message not be portrayed in this way. The good news is we can be freed from sin, from darkness and that we will all be resurrected. Very important message. Very bright message. Very important to distinguish the Lord's message from all others.

Generally, you will find that we do not use crosses personally. But when it comes right down to it, these sort of personal decisions are always left to the individual because [1 Tim 1:9 …the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient…]. We aren’t commanded in all things because the point is for us to be the kind of people who do not need such. We are expected to seek after righteousness and holiness through sanctification by the Holy Ghost. It is our responsibility to seek and follow the Spirit. This requires and results in a pure and loving heart. Then there is no need for rules that are made just to control those who are trying to do evil.

I read about a woman who, raised as Amish, went through a great struggle before becoming a fundamentalist Christian. Her only problem was that she strongly believed in wearing the traditional and modest Amish dress, but her new Christian friends just wore whatever. I do not remember how she finally reconciled this, but it illustrates how deeply ingrained we become with our traditions. The problem keeping her from her new faith had nothing to do with core doctrine, just outward tradition.

Joseph Smith said it was easy to get a man to make great sacrifices but very difficult to get him to let go of his traditions. This is apparent in the originally pagan symbols that were incorporated into Christian holidays. Pagans didn't mind becoming Christian as long as they were allowed to keep some of their traditions. Most people don't really care what a Christmas tree is supposed to mean as long as they are allowed to put one up once a year. It is a comfort to them, for their own reasons, and they don't care (at least in America) about why it is a comfort to someone else. It's what they are used to. This thing is also apparent in my wife who just HAS to have maple syrup on pancakes or French Toast. My favorite on French Toast is honey, hands down. But she could never do that. I could do either or on pancakes. I could even do syrup on French Toast.

I had an issue about clothing. As an avid motorcycle tourer, I loved to wear weather-beaten leather and sleep in the dirt and watch the gold fire of the setting sun touch off the weathered tree bark and buildings of the desert. I read an Ensign article once about a group who wore black leather all the time and lived in a biker house and who shed their leathers when they all were converted and joined the church. I struggled with that story. I loved my leathers from an artful standpoint, not as an egotism. I eventually gave up my hobby though - for other reasons. Now I find great satisfaction in dressing simply and comfortably in nothing outlandish. But I still wear leather when I ride a motorcycle, both of which I still do for practical purposes. As I get older, more and more, I find the "armor of God" to be more real and exciting to wear than the physical materials on my body. I find myself getting more interested in feelings and how they result in myself and those with whom I interact than in physical things. But I still enjoy physical work and sports as much as ever. They just no longer rule and consume my life.

I have to admit and point out that if I started wearing a cross around my neck, just about all of my leaders and most of the members of my branch would feel alarm because of their own traditions in this church. If I had an interest in using the cross as my symbol, I probably would not do it for two reasons: 1 – I generally don’t keep watches, jewelry, rings, etc. because they are cumbersome and get in my way. 2 – I know it will upset some people because of their traditions and their tendency to worry about other people and what and why they are doing what they are doing; I find peace in not upsetting people if I can help it. This was not always the case with me. I was one of the more independent-minded free spirit types. I did what made sense to me. I did not do things just because “that’s the way we do it.” I still do a lot of what makes sense to me, but I guess I have mellowed because now I care more about just giving to people than making my statement.

Paul had an awful lot to say about all this kind of stuff. I always had more difficulty understanding much of his epistles than Isaiah's words. But now I am reading the New Testament again and am really starting to get it more. The things I am getting really apply to our topic. Let me just boil them all down to this: Be more concerned about the love, the atonement itself, the power of the Spirit and the priesthood than the cross, pork, circumcision, white shirts, tea, coffee, sacrament meeting start times, Sabbath on Sunday instead of Saturday, ..........All of these things gradually come to get their proper attention when we are humble and penitent seekers of God. Steer the car by looking ahead down the road, not at the pedals.

Finally, you did not make any mention of why you are close to leaving the church - care to share that (if there is something specific – or not)? I am assuming the real reason cannot be the issue with the cross.

Yours truly,

Scott

[Moksha]

Moksha,

In another thread that is closed now.. I asked you about your tag lines.. What I meant by my question was How do you do that. I have not figured it out.

MrNirom, answering the Greatest Request is certainly not an easy thing. Perhaps with the help of a little Buddha wisdom: Seeing through layers of the artificial to reduce things to their bare essence may help. Underneath everything else we are all the shining children of God. Knowing that makes extending love much easier.

[Adeipho]

The history of the cross symbol in Christianity

Early depictions on Jesus usually showed Jesus in the form of a shepherd carrying a lamb. Tertullian (140-230 CE), a Montanist heretic, commented in his essay De Corona: "At every forward step and movement, at every going in and out, when we put on our our clothes and shoes, when we bathe, when we sit at table, when we light the lamps, on couch, on seat, in all the ordinary actions of daily life, we trace upon the forehead the sign." This might be an early reference to individuals tracing the sign of the cross on their body.

The use of the cross as a symbol was condemned by at least one church father of the 3rd century CE because of its Pagan origins. The first appearance of a cross in Christian art is on a Vatican sarcophagus from the mid-5th Century. 11 It was a Greek cross with equal-length arms. Jesus' body was not shown. The first crucifixion scenes didn't appear in Christian art until the 7th century CE. The original cross symbol was in the form of a Tau Cross. It was so named because it looked like the letter "tau", or our letter "T". One author speculates that the Church may have copied the symbol from the Pagan Druids who made crosses in this form to represent the Thau (god). 7 They joined two limbs from oak trees. The Tau cross became associated with St. Philip who was allegedly crucified on such a cross in Phrygia. May Day, a major Druidic seasonal day of celebration, became St. Philip's Day. Later in Christian history, the Tau Cross became the Roman Cross that we are familiar with today.

The shape of the original crucifixion device is a matter for speculation. Sometimes, the Romans executed people on a Tau cross, sometimes on a Roman cross and sometimes on a simple stake. The gospels, which were originally written in Greek, use the word "stauros" to refer to the execution structure. (see Mark 15:21, Mark 15:32, Matthew 27:32, Luke 23:26, John 19:17). This appears as the word "cross" in all but one of the English versions that we have examined. But in reality, the Greek word usually means a vertical pole without a crossbar. The New World Translation, sponsored by the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, translates the word as "torture stake." 8 Hermann Fulda, author of "The Cross and Crucifixion" is commented that:

the description of Jesus' suffering during the last hours of life indicates that he was crucified on a stake rather than a cross.

that some of the writings of the early church fathers confirms the use of a pole.

that the very earliest depictions of Jesus' crucifixion in Christian art show him on a stake.

Acts 5:30 refers to "hanging him on a tree." 1 Peter 2:24 says "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree."

Deuteronomy 21:23 stated that a person hung on a tree was be cursed by God. This verse was a major stumbling block that prevented many Jews from accepting Jesus as Messiah.

According to author Graydon F. Snyder:

"[Today's]....universal use of the sign of the cross makes more poignant the striking lack of crosses in early Christian remains, especially any specific reference to the event on Golgotha. Most scholars now agree that the cross as an artistic reference to the passion event cannot be found prior to the time of Constantine."

The pre-Christian history of the cross symbol

"From its simplicity of form, the cross has been used both as a religious symbol and as an ornament, from the dawn of man's civilization. Various objects, dating from periods long anterior to the Christian era, have been found, marked with crosses of different designs, in almost every part of the old world." 9 The cross symbol was found in: 10

Scandinavia: The Tau cross symbolized the hammer of the God Thor.

Babylon: the cross with a crescent moon was the symbol of their moon deity.

Assyria: the corners of the cross represented the four directions in which the sun shines.

India: In Hinduism, the vertical shaft represents the higher, celestial states of being; the horizontal bar represents the lower, earthly states.

Egypt: The ankh cross (a Tau cross topped by an inverted tear shape) is associated with Maat, their Goddess of Truth. It also represents the sexual union of Isis and Osiris.

Europe: The use of a human effigy on a cross in the form of a scarecrow has been used from ancient times. In prehistoric times, a human would be sacrificed and hung on a cross. The sacrifice would later be chopped to pieces; his blood and pieces of flesh were widely distributed and buried to encourage the crop fertility.

[Rekhyt2238]

Finally, you did not make any mention of why you are close to leaving the church - care to share that (if there is something specific – or not)? I am assuming the real reason cannot be the issue with the cross.

As I have said multiple times in this thread, the reason I am close to leaving is not just the Cross. The Cross is one of many issues I have with the church.

[bert10]

Hi Rekhyt......I have teachings that you have never heard from anyone...also if you opened your heart and your mind...you will see that they are true....

The CROSS:

LDS do not focused only on the Cross for the means of salvation.

Salvation is found in the whole Life of Christ not just on those few moments on the Cross. God did forgive sins in the OT as well as when he walked the earth.

1: Christ lived a life of perfection to show that it is possible for men to do. And so His commandment In Matthew 5:48 to be as perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect is not left unfulfilled or taught by the blind that it is impossible to live this commandment.

2. Christ suffered and bled so that He could forgive those who repented enough to cast away their hardened hearts. This is the whole aim of repentance. If a man cannot hear GOD in his heart...he has not repented enough.

Hebrews 3:15 - While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

If in these last days which are also the times of the restitution of all things...men continue to keep their hardened hearts and continue to force on God their own terms of salvation then they shall be damned spiritually. Which means unable to progress. Men who after read the bible and this post continue to refuse to hear GOD in their hearts are recreating in their life the conditions that lead to the "Provocation of the Lord".

3. Jesus died and Resurrected: So that He could bring both the Just and the unjust into judgment before the Father.

Acts 24:15 - And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

This is the plan of Salvation that Christ came and delivered to Men.

Further symbology on the CROSS:

The Cross is a tree that goes from the Ground and points straight to heaven. On the way up there is/are a CROSS BEAM (s) that represent the left [Error] and the right [Zealousness] that men choose because they do not hear GOD in their heart. No man can get by those "Cross Roads" by relying on his own wisdom and knowledge. Men left to themselves will invariably choose the Left or the Right and so their way to heaven is stopped perhaps permanently.

-----------------------------------------------------

I have told you the truth...The Christians have abominable doctrines if they had been right....I can positively state to you ...that the Midwest also known as the bible belt would not be suffering storms, droughts and floods in biblical proportion..simply because the Lord will spare the wicked if there are enough men living righteously. And "righteously" means...Doing the Right according to God's Right. (hearing by God voice.)

You will not ever get these precious truths as I have given them to you from Pastors or any Christian religion. So if you go...where will you go?

Who has the words of Eternal Life?

These things which I am giving you tonight... are amongst those things that the Lord could not give to His own apostles before He was taken to be crucified....

"I have yet many things to say unto you..but ye cannot bear them now."

Now that the cross is solved and you know the truth was is your next issue?

Peace be unto you

bert10

Let me start out by saying I am very close to leaving the church. Though I have a few questions before, which is why I came here. To start with, one of my issues with church doctrine is the subject of the Cross. Personally, I wear a Cross, but according to the church website, mormons are not supposed to wear the symbol of the cross because, “the Savior lives, [so] we do not use the symbol of His death as the symbol of our faith.” My opinion on the subject, is that the symbol of Christ's' death, the Cross, is the symbol of Christianity because without his death there would be no religion.

So my question is, why? I do not understand why the fact that Christ lives means that we should not wear a Cross. I ask for any further explanation and/or opinions on the subject.

Edited July 5, 2008 by bert10

[bert10]

Hi Rekhyt......I have teachings that you have never heard from anyone...also if you opened your heart and your mind...you will see that they are true....

The CROSS:

LDS do not focused only on the Cross for the means of salvation.

Salvation is the whole Life of Christ.

1: Christ lived a life of perfection to show that it is possible for men to do. And so His commandment In Matthew 5:48 to be as perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect is not left unfulfilled or taught by the blind that it is impossible to live this commandment.

2. Christ suffered and bled so that He could forgive those who repented enough to cast away their hardened hearts. This is the whole aim of repentance. If a man cannot hear GOD in his heart...he has not repented enough.

Hebrews 3:15 - While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

If in these last days which are also the times of the restitution of all things...men continue to keep their hardened hearts and continue to force on God their own terms of salvation then they shall be damned spiritually. Which means unable to progress. Men who after read the bible and this post continue to refuse to hear GOD in their hearts are recreating in their life the conditions that lead to the "Provocation of the Lord".

3. Jesus died and Resurrected: So that He could bring both the Just and the unjust into judgment before the Father.

Acts 24:15 - And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

This is the plan of Salvation that Christ came and delivered to Men.

Further symbology on the CROSS:

The Cross is a tree that goes from the Ground and points straight to heaven. On the way up there is/are a CROSS BEAM (s) that represent the left [Error] and the right [Zealousness] that men choose because they do not hear GOD in their heart. No man can get by those "Cross Roads" by relying on his own wisdom and knowledge. Men left to themselves will invariably choose the Left or the Right and so their way to heaven is stopped perhaps permanently.

-----------------------------------------------------

I have told you the truth...The Christians have abominable doctrines if they had been right....I can positively state to you ...that the Midwest also known as the bible belt would not be suffering storms, droughts and floods in biblical proportion..simply because the Lord will spare the wicked if there are enough men living righteously. And "righteously" means...Doing the Right according to God's Right. (hearing by God voice.)

You will not ever get these precious truths as I have given them to you from Pastors or any Christian religion. So if you go...where will you go?

Who has the words of Eternal Life?

These things which I am giving you tonight... are amongst those things that the Lord could not give to His own apostles before He was taken to be crucified....

"I have yet many things to say unto you..but ye cannot bear them now."

Peace be unto you

bert10

Let me start out by saying I am very close to leaving the church. Though I have a few questions before, which is why I came here. To start with, one of my issues with church doctrine is the subject of the Cross. Personally, I wear a Cross, but according to the church website, mormons are not supposed to wear the symbol of the cross because, “the Savior lives, [so] we do not use the symbol of His death as the symbol of our faith.” My opinion on the subject, is that the symbol of Christ's' death, the Cross, is the symbol of Christianity because without his death there would be no religion.

So my question is, why? I do not understand why the fact that Christ lives means that we should not wear a Cross. I ask for any further explanation and/or opinions on the subject.

[prisonchaplain]

Efforts to debunk the crucifixion (it was done on a stake, on a tree, the cross has pagan origins, etc.) stem largely from groups that seem bent on undermining traditional Christian teaching (most famously, Jehovah's Witnesses), or from scholars who are suspicious of Christianity, in general.

Yet, Roman crucifixion is historical, and it was gruesome. The Crucifixion of Christ: Roman Practice

If we find out that ultimately it was not a cross (it was a tree or a stake), then it really won't effect the gospel message. However, I'm pretty confident it was...and the truth of it makes the Passion of the gospels all the more poignant, imho. It's not negativity, it is the gravitas of Jesus' love for us and the Father's deep hatred of sin and rebellion.

[Rekhyt2238]

Salvation is found in the whole Life of Christ not just on those few moments on the Cross. God did forgive sins in the OT as well as when he walked the earth.

I agree with that, but is the Cross not a symbol of a crucial part of our salvation? Without that part, Christ would not be the one dying for our sins.

The Cross is a tree that goes from the Ground and points straight to heaven. On the way up there is/are a CROSS BEAM (s) that represent the left [Error] and the right [Zealousness] that men choose because they do not hear GOD in their heart. No man can get by those "Cross Roads" by relying on his own wisdom and knowledge. Men left to themselves will invariably choose the Left or the Right and so their way to heaven is stopped perhaps permanently.

If anything, that is encouragement to wear the Cross. It says the Cross is a reminder that if I do not follow God, then there is no chance of me choosing correctly.

You will not ever get these precious truths as I have given them to you from Pastors or any Christian religion. So if you go...where will you go?

IMHO, that sounds a bit arrogant and full of yourself. I will not get that from any Christian religion? Is Mormonism included in that?

Now that the cross is solved and you know the truth was is your next issue?

Honestly, the only thing I could tell was specifically about the Cross was the first two things I quoted. And they did not even come close to explaining why we should not wear a Cross.

[Traveler]

What defines you are anyone else as a Christian must come from within. When the love of Christ is in one's heart there is no need for an external symbol. If a symbol is a means of communicating what is a Christian in your mind - you do not know The Christ in your mind or heart.

The Traveler

[Islander]

As I have said multiple times in this thread, the reason I am close to leaving is not just the Cross. The Cross is one of many issues I have with the church.

Friend - At the end, the cross and whether you wear it or not is not truly the reason why you are having problems in the church.

I am not necessarily a diplomat and as much as I try, I have very little skill when it comes to unfolding the truth. I ask for your fogiveness beforehand if anything of what I am about to say here offends you. It is really not my intent or purpose.

Your discontent with the church about the cross or any other teaching (and by the way, we do not teach against the cross) are rather evidence of other underlying conflict and issues. You have not elaborated much in that regard so I could not speculate. I could however point to the fact that it is likely that you are not converted fully to the Gospel. You may be quite young and are trying perhaps to develop you own sense of self, space and cognitive awareness.

One of the challenges of being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is that we have a living prophet, we have modern revelation and a current doctrinal position that removes the ambiguity out of the canonical texts and the interpretation thereof. So it places you in a very interesting and unique position. The revelation is before you and it is up to you to inquire of God thru the Spirit if it is true or not. What you think you know and whatever preconceived notions and ideas become irrelevant at that point. If you insist in holding on to your own position then you find yourself in clear opposition to the teachings and doctrine as revealed by the prophets of this dispensation. That has to create interna tension.

Beyond that, I suggest that there may be other issues in your life of great importance to you where you find yourself also at odds with the doctrine or even the social norms values and life in the church in general.

Ultimately, you are free to choose and act for yourself independently and away from the revelation of the latter days. Some comfort themselves with the notion that they can worship God their own way and go seeking after associations more to their liking an in synch with their own views. I suggest that you are rejecting the doctrine because it interferes with the desires of your heart, whatever those are.

I would encourage you to seek, in humility, guidance from the Spirit about what direction to take. You have no idea of the consequences of rejecting the Gospel and the doctrine of the kingdom after it has been given to you. I pray that you would consider seeking counsel from your bishop and others that love you and care for you. To inquire and to question is of the Lord and truth is the fruit of those who wrestle in the Spirit to reach and understand Him. To have questions in your heart is the first step in the road to full communion with God and understanding the Atonement of the Savior.

My prayers are with you.

[Moksha]

I have told you the truth...The Christians have abominable doctrines if they had been right....I can positively state to you ...that the Midwest also known as the bible belt would not be suffering storms, droughts and floods in biblical proportion..simply because the Lord will spare the wicked if there are enough men living righteously. And "righteously" means...Doing the Right according to God's Right. (hearing by God voice.)

Peace be unto you

bert10

Yikes! So much for those mid-west Mormons...

.

[bytor2112]

Close to leaving??!!..... sounds like you were never there! Many issues, please. If you really wanted to know the truth you would go to church instead of listening to those all knowing members of other faiths. I bet your friends have researched the LDS faith more than they researched the history or beliefs of their own churches teachings. MIGHT AS WELL HEAD FOR THE EXIT SIGN AND GET "SAVED" , because you aren't going to find a testimony here and you have already stated your not looking for one.

[Islander]

Yikes! So much for those mid-west Mormons...

.

True...poor people.

That is a bit extreme. I would suggest that God will not judge the righteous with the wicked. for the sake of ONE He would spare the city. What do you think.

[Rekhyt2238]

You have no idea of the consequences of rejecting the Gospel and the doctrine of the kingdom after it has been given to you.

I'm curious about this. Hypothetically speaking, lets say that I do leave the church. After I die, I find out that it was actually the true church. What would happen to me? Let me add, that I do not, nor have ever had a real testimony of the LDS church.

Close to leaving??!!..... sounds like you were never there! Many issues, please. If you really wanted to know the truth you would go to church instead of listening to those all knowing members of other faiths. I bet your friends have researched the LDS faith more than they researched the history or beliefs of their own churches teachings. MIGHT AS WELL HEAD FOR THE EXIT SIGN AND GET "SAVED" , because you aren't going to find a testimony here and you have already stated your not looking for one.

How many times have I said that I tried going to church?! I STILL went even when they did not WANT me there! And after so long, I had had enough! I was not getting much out of it, and the people were evil(And yes, there are plenty of very evil mormons). My non LDS friends knew almost NOTHING about the church until I told them things! Half of quite a few bible studies was me explaining their questions about the church! I STATED that I was not looking for a testimony HERE! I am looking for a testimony! I simply am not naive enough to think an online forum could give me a testimony! Bytor, you seem very familiar. You seem a lot like some of the mormons who have been pushing me AWAY from the church!

[Islander]

I'm curious about this. Hypothetically speaking, lets say that I do leave the church. After I die, I find out that it was actually the true church. What would happen to me? Let me add, that I do not, nor have ever had a real testimony of the LDS church.

How many times have I said that I tried going to church?! I STILL went even when they did not WANT me there! And after so long, I had had enough! I was not getting much out of it, and the people were evil(And yes, there are plenty of very evil mormons). My non LDS friends knew almost NOTHING about the church until I told them things! Half of quite a few bible studies was me explaining their questions about the church! I STATED that I was not looking for a testimony HERE! I am looking for a testimony! I simply am not naive enough to think an online forum could give me a testimony! Bytor, you seem very familiar. You seem a lot like some of the mormons who have been pushing me AWAY from the church!

You do not sound like a member of the church. You refer to certain church activities in a way that is not typical and you seem to ignore certain idiosyncrasies that should be second nature.

You are referring to members of the church as "evil people" and in 9 years as a member of the church I have never heard anybody speak in those terms. I find your statements quite suspect at this point so I will be ending my exchange with you here. There is something quite wrong with you and yor life that I have no further interest to explore. I have nothing else to offer you.

I will suggest to the MOD to close this thread.

Edited July 6, 2008 by Islander

[scdoyle]

My opinion on the subject, is that the symbol of Christ's' death, the Cross, is the symbol of Christianity because without his death there would be no religion.

So if Christ was killed with a gun, would you wear a gun around your neck?

[skalenfehl]

So if Christ was killed with a gun, would you wear a gun around your neck?

I've heard this one before, but I'm not sure it is the right approach. Rekhyt2238, I'm sorry that you have had such experiences in that ward. I have been in wards before where I have felt unwelcome, sometimes judged. Some members and even some wards can be filled with judgmental attitudes and self righteousness. This is the exception.

I have two boys not much older than you and I sense that more than anything you wish to be understood. Honestly, if you want to wear a cross, I am sure the Lord will not object. There are far worse things that you could be wearing. Are there other concerns that we could help to address so that you could give the church a fair shot before making up your mind? Gaining a testimony can be a journey more so than a destination. It is a process and with a little diligence proves to be a very rewarding experience.

[bytor2112]

Rekhyt2238, sorry if I sounded a bit harsh. I hope you find the answers your are looking for here or elsewhere. I sometimes forget that we are all at different places in the journey that Skale talked about. My mother doesn't like her new Ward and is struggling to atend. Mormons can be very clickish and while I am not from Utah, I hear it can be really bad there, depending on the Ward. Have you considered checking out some different Wards?

If I offended you and it sounds like I did...please accept my apology. The Church is true, best of luck on your journey.

[prisonchaplain]

So if Christ was killed with a gun, would you wear a gun around your neck?

YES!

The cross reminds us of the means of Christ's sacrifice. It is not idolatry, a desire for the morbid, nor defeatism, that motivates us to use the cross as our primary image, when telling the gospel. Just as we did not know Abraham's faith and love for God until he lifted the knife to sacrifice his own son, we could not see, nor understand the rock-solid love of God for us.

Again, this motivates us to live with humility, and yet righteousness and spiritual confidence. Gun, electric chair, noose--the instrument of Christ's death would be our badge of honor.

[Rekhyt2238]

I first want to apologize to everyone for my outburst. The term evil was very harsh.

You do not sound like a member of the church. You refer to certain church activities in a way that is not typical and you seem to ignore certain idiosyncrasies that should be second nature.

Islander, as I have specifically apologized to you in our private messages, I hope you will reconsider talking with me. If you do, please elaborate on what you meant, I would really appreciate it.

Rekhyt2238, sorry if I sounded a bit harsh. I hope you find the answers your are looking for here or elsewhere. I sometimes forget that we are all at different places in the journey that Skale talked about. My mother doesn't like her new Ward and is struggling to atend. Mormons can be very clickish and while I am not from Utah, I hear it can be really bad there, depending on the Ward. Have you considered checking out some different Wards?

If I offended you and it sounds like I did...please accept my apology. The Church is true, best of luck on your journey.

Apology accepted. I simply hope everyone accepts my apology.

[Snow]

My opinion on the subject, is that the symbol of Christ's' death, the Cross, is the symbol of Christianity because without his death there would be no religion.

It's only a symbol of Christianity because some people think it is a symbol of Christianity... like a fish or "God Don't Make No Junk" sign. It has no intrinsic value in an of itself.

What does God have to say about it?

[Islander]

I first want to apologize to everyone for my outburst. The term evil was very harsh.

Islander, as I have specifically apologized to you in our private messages, I hope you will reconsider talking with me. If you do, please elaborate on what you meant, I would really appreciate it.

Apology accepted. I simply hope everyone accepts my apology.

Rekhyt2238 - I will organize my thoughts a bit better and I'll reply tomorrow. I sincerely dislike contention. People usually stop listening and are just waiting for their turn to lash out and that is why I avoid it, nothing personal. Once the Spirit withdrawn we are just left with the noise of our own voice bouncing inside our heads. A totally useless exercise.

We'll pick up where we left.

[Rekhyt2238]

Rekhyt2238 - I will organize my thoughts a bit better and I'll reply tomorrow. I sincerely dislike contention. People usually stop listening and are just waiting for their turn to lash out and that is why I avoid it, nothing personal. Once the Spirit withdrawn we are just left with the noise of our own voice bouncing inside our heads. A totally useless exercise.

We'll pick up where we left.

Thank you Islander. I appreciate it, and I look forward to your response.

[Traveler]

YES!

The cross reminds us of the means of Christ's sacrifice. It is not idolatry, a desire for the morbid, nor defeatism, that motivates us to use the cross as our primary image, when telling the gospel. Just as we did not know Abraham's faith and love for God until he lifted the knife to sacrifice his own son, we could not see, nor understand the rock-solid love of God for us.

Again, this motivates us to live with humility, and yet righteousness and spiritual confidence. Gun, electric chair, noose--the instrument of Christ's death would be our badge of honor.

I would agree with you about your efforts to remember the sacrifice of Christ. However, that is not how he asked his disciples to remember him. I do not believe this would be so much a problem if the more important issues and commandments were given equal or more respect. I am not so concerned with your individual case of respect and devotion as I am with the traditional Christians that have carried the cross into war to justify many of histories worse abuses against mankind.

Without question the symbol of the cross has come to be an “evil” symbol of great abuse throughout the world as much as it is a symbol of peace through the sacrifice of Christ. It is also just as much a symbol of “self serving” and rejection (damning) of others as it is a symbol of love, care and service of others (especially to non-Christians).

So I ask a question – if the cross in the hands of a Christian is a symbol of destruction and abuses in a specific society – would you gladly wear a cross knowing the fear and distrust that it generates?

The Traveler

[Rekhyt2238]

So I ask a question – if the cross in the hands of a Christian is a symbol of destruction and abuses in a specific society – would you gladly wear a cross knowing the fear and distrust that it generates?

The Traveler

I personally would wear my Cross under my shirt, as I always do.