Why people leave the church

[Palerider]

Well, yes they did, Pale. But, they were written in Reformed English so I couldn't read them.

Hey! I just realized. You're so old Reformed English was probably your spoken and written language? Yes?

Now, where can I find those books again?

Elphie

search me.....LOL!!!!!!!!

[Elphaba]

search me.....LOL!!!!!!!!

Why? Are you hiding them?:p

Elphie

[Palerider]

Why? Are you hiding them?:p

Elphie

yes.....and I will never tell.....

[Elphaba]

. . . it is a factually true statement to say that Asians are smart. . . .

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with your premise, but I have a story about this.

This happened during the influx of "boat people" from Asia, including Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia. After having risked their lives in horrible circumstances, including riding in small, unsafe boats in an effort to find safety, they arrived in California, and took the most menial jobs available. And, of course, as always seems to be the case in such circumstances, they were treated with great disdain.

To set the stage, I was attending a community college, in 1981, that had had its own influx of students from Cambodia.

In one of my classes, students asked the instructor for more time for an assignment. The instructor said absolutely not, and then went on to explain.

He said he now had many Asian immigrant students in his classes who could not even speak the language, but who were getting As on all of their coursework. He said they never asked for special treatment for anything, but worked as hard as they could to get their educations.

And because of this, he was going to be a much tougher instructor in the future.

I never forgot my instructor's words, and fifteen years later when I finally went on to university in Utah, the example of these Asian students always pushed me forward when I felt like moaning for more time.

Elphaba

[Islander]

If new information about the church would drive everybody away the RCC would be gone by now. From countless thousands killed by torture by the Inquisition to hundreds of political assassinations within the Vatican (one Pope plotting to kill another) but it remains. Most people are certainly aware of the spotty past but that does not discourage most members.

The doctrine is perfect but the people are not and Joseph was certainly not perfect. That he made many mistakes is it clear and evident by his own admission in many documents including D&C.

There is a movie entitled: "The Body" which relates to the alleged discovery in Jerusalem of a body of a crucified man and the inscription in the tomb could point to the fact that it could be Jesus. Lots of peole kill themselves and the like. Well, what do I care about who found what? Christ rose on the third day and stands at the right hand of the Father above the mount of the congregation of the saints that have crossed the veil in righteousness. No "fact" or archaeological find will change what the Spirit of God has revealed to me to be true.

Those that walk away from the church were never converted to the Gospel of Christ, the restoration and lack the faith that is required to hold on to the covenant and reach the kingdom of God.

Edited August 4, 2008 by Islander

[bytor2112]

Those that walk away from the church were never converted to the Gospel of Christ, the restoration and lack the faith that is required to hold on to the covenant and reach the kingdom of God.

But why?? Why do some receive a witness of the Spirit and others, like Otterpop and MIke_UK, do not? Do they seek the spirit less than others, are they just going through the motions and the Lord doesn't let them know? My best friend is an inactive member and is way out in the world, but recently he asked for a blessing and he felt the Spirit very strongly. He is

not living the gospel at all and yet felt the Spirit, why not those who are living it, yet don't?

[candyprpl]

But why?? Why do some receive a witness of the Spirit and others, like Otterpop and MIke_UK, do not? Do they seek the spirit less than others, are they just going through the motions and the Lord doesn't let them know? My best friend is an inactive member and is way out in the world, but recently he asked for a blessing and he felt the Spirit very strongly. He is

not living the gospel at all and yet felt the Spirit, why not those who are living it, yet don't?

Very good question!!! I have been asking the same thing since I signed on to these forums. I've always been a student of psychology, sociology, etc. and this question in those settings would be, why do people who have the same experience react in such different matters? I would really love to hear people discuss this issue. Maybe it needs it's own thread -- I don't know.

[Misshalfway]

Very good question!!! I have been asking the same thing since I signed on to these forums. I've always been a student of psychology, sociology, etc. and this question in those settings would be, why do people who have the same experience react in such different matters? I would really love to hear people discuss this issue. Maybe it needs it's own thread -- I don't know.

I think that would be a great thread!!!

[Islander]

But why?? Why do some receive a witness of the Spirit and others, like Otterpop and MIke_UK, do not? Do they seek the spirit less than others, are they just going through the motions and the Lord doesn't let them know? My best friend is an inactive member and is way out in the world, but recently he asked for a blessing and he felt the Spirit very strongly. He is

not living the gospel at all and yet felt the Spirit, why not those who are living it, yet don't?

I don't know my friend. I am not a theologian and thus make no claim to understanding (from a doctrinal standpoint) why people do the things they do. The scriptures are filed with references to those that were once counted among the faithful and walked away from the the word of God. See: Titus 1:16, 2 Pet 2:22, Isa 29:13, Joh 6:66, 1 Tim 4:1, 2 Tim 4:4

I am a convert to the church and although a decade has transpired, I remain humbled and amazed by the strength of my testimony and the increase of my faith. I can only "see" from afar and, at times, become aware of the trials and challenges that some members face. Faith and testimony, in my opinion, are like a wells of clear, clean and transparent water provided by the Lord. The well needs to be protected, the walls reinforced and care and attention provided to who, when and why access to the well is granted. Failure to do so can cause the walls to collapse, runoff with dirty water or dead animal to drain into the well and contaminate and destroy the source thereof.

I say this based on my own limited experience and with no intention to harm. Almost always, we fail to recognize that we battle with an enemy that is as real as daylight, strong and intelligent and determined to use every available tool to separate us from God and the truth. We allow the enemy to confuse, distract and finally separate us from God by diverse ways. Gaining and sustaining our testimony takes a significant amount of effort, time, faith, devotion and determination. Oliver Cawdery succumbed to his family prompting to leave the church and return to his occupation as a lawyer. He was a witness and a participant to the translation process of the BoM, to the manifestations and the miracles and he walked away to pursue other things. Years later he returned. One of the apostles commenting on his returned observed that "when in years past the earth seemed to tremble under his stride, upon his return Oliver was but a shadow of his former self."

I submit that the secret lies with us. At times we lack the humility and repentance to realize what it is what we are doing, or not, that is suffocating the the seed, stifling the faith and mudding the water of that precious well.

[choice]

But why?? Why do some receive a witness of the Spirit and others, like Otterpop and MIke_UK, do not? Do they seek the spirit less than others, are they just going through the motions and the Lord doesn't let them know? My best friend is an inactive member and is way out in the world, but recently he asked for a blessing and he felt the Spirit very strongly. He is

not living the gospel at all and yet felt the Spirit, why not those who are living it, yet don't?

Hi,

Through my own journey I've realised that the portion of spirit I receive is not just about me.

I remain eternally grateful for the works of beloved ancestors, and also the prayers and faith of those around me.

I've realised through family history work, that I am (conditionally) endowed with a spirit that trandscends my own limited understanding. All I know is, that for me, when I feel the Spirit (of truth, love, understanding and peace, of my God) strongly, I also always feel the embracing love of my ancestors, sometimes almost tangibly.

My portion of the Spirit, embraces their portion also.

[YellowLight]

Maybe the church should do a survey?

Yeah...that would be a good idea. I am sure that wouldn't turn out to be biased by any means.

[NateHowe]

Yeah...that would be a good idea. I am sure that wouldn't turn out to be biased by any means.

Actually, the Church leaders want to know more than anybody why people leave. It is in the best interest of the Church for us to figure out what people's real concerns are and help them overcome them so they will stay faithful.

[john doe]

The problem with a survey would be getting honest, accurate answers. I can imagine that the 'I have problems with church history' box would get checked much more often than the real reason for leaving.

[OtterPop]

John Doe's attitude is fairly typical in Mormonism -- people who leave have done something wrong, are lying to themselves, and will find "excuses" to leave so that they don't have to face themselves.

One should never let actual people get in the way of stereotypes!

[pam]

Actually I understand john doe's comment. With the numerous threads we have had in just the last few months about Church History and the perceived falseness of many aspects of the history...his comment is really not far off. There just seems to be more and more who are using that excuse as a reason to leave the Church. At least that is my opinion with the threads that have been started in the past recent months.

[OtterPop]

There are many aspects of LDS church history that can genuinely cause someone to question whether the origins are indeed divine. It doesn't have to be an "excuse" for leaving.

John Doe's statement implies that there is always a "real reason for leaving" when someone states they have a problem with church history. I'm just challenging his assumptions. He has a lot of them.

[pam]

But isn't there always a "reason" people leave? I guess it would sound better stating you have a problem with Church history than checking the box that you have just gotten lazy.

[OtterPop]

Sure, there are reasons. But not all those reasons are "excuses." I thought we were talking about a survey of why people leave the church, not why they become inactive.

I'm sure some people become inactive because they're lazy, but I don't think people cancel their membership because they're lazy. There's a real difference between being inactive and actually leaving the church. I make a definite distinction between the two -- because I believe they are worlds apart -- but not everyone here does.

Edited August 5, 2008 by OtterPop

[pam]

Technicality in wording. Same thing to me.

[john doe]

John Doe's attitude is fairly typical in Mormonism -- people who leave have done something wrong, are lying to themselves, and will find "excuses" to leave so that they don't have to face themselves.

One should never let actual people get in the way of stereotypes!

I think it's your stereotyping of me that is sad. Do you actually think that if someone left because they could no longer live the commandments, that they would put that down as their exit excuse? You must be more naive than I give you credit for.

I've hung around a few LDS-centric boards for a while, and while many people claim at first that they left because they think they were lied to, if they stick around for a while, you start to find out that they also fell into sin, be it preaching false doctrine or some other type. Very rarely will I see someone who honestly can say that they left the church because they think they were lied to about the history of the church, but it is the biggest scapegoat used by ex-LDS.

My words are based on my experiences with ex-members. Maybe it's just the ones who can't seem to let go of it and hang out on LDS board or just some in my circle of friends who have left, but that's what I see.

[OtterPop]

John

You can't "stereotype" one person. My comments about you are based on what you have posted recently on this board, not some grand assumption I have about what you must be like.

Did it ever occur to you that some people quit living the commandments because they quit believing in the church? And that this may happen before they formally leave?

Of course I don't think people are going to answer on a survey that they "couldn't keep the commandments anymore." I also think a lot of people would not care to submit to a survey when they leave the LDS church. Are you so naive that you believe that members exiting the church wouldn't know that the purpose of the survey is to figure how to keep people from leaving? Or believe that people who are hurt and angry might not want to participate in something designed to benefit the organization they are leaving?

Do you believe there is any legitimate reason for leaving the church? If not, then you are hardly viewing your friends/internet contacts with through a clear lens, are you? Your assumption is that there is no good reason; therefore you must assign to these people a reason that you are comfortable with.

If I'm wrong, I'd be glad to hear that I have assumed wrong and that you think a person can have a real reason for leaving.

[Moksha]

With the numerous threads we have had in just the last few months about Church History and the perceived falseness of many aspects of the history...his comment is really not far off.

I too had problems with Church history until I was able to reconcile it. For those who do face this dilemma of what to make of various aspects of Church history, a process of reconciliation will need to take place. There are many factors to consider and much soul searching to do. Hopefully one can at some point be at peace with this history and embrace the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is the cornerstone for the Church, as well as the other good things the Church has to offer.

[jimuk]

Are we talking about why people stop going to meetings, or why they no longer believe in the lds faith.

If people have become inactive and still retain their testomony then they have not left the church at all, and whilst they do indeed retain their testimony there is a very good chance that they will return to meetings one day, your testimony is a great thing and as long as the holy ghost keeps testifying to a person, then he/she is as much a member of the church of Jesus christ of latter day saints as any one who attends church meetings regularly.

I believe that "some" inactive members love our father, as much or maybe more than "some" active members profess to do.

Some People here are just guessing as to why some leave the church and why some become inactive, i myself think there is a world of difference.

Why a survey, yes maybe a survey amongst "active" members would be more appropriate asking if they feel that they have shown enough love and kindness to troubled members, the way Jesus did when he walked amongst his church, he has asked us to be the same as himself, and to love one another the way that he loves us.

As i have already said, if a person retains his/her testimony then they have not left the church.

When their testimony is taken from them, by heavenly father for whatever reasons he seems fit, then yes, this is when they have left.

[mike_uk]

Oh my goodness. Some of you people need to stop repeating typical "TBM" answers over and over and over again. It does my head in. Please. try and be a little more open minded and not put everyone who leaves in your shoes. You just cannot see past your own testimonies, im sorry harsh words but its true.

I remember sitting in church thinking to myself, "I could never ever leave this church". Now look where I am ladies and gentlemen. Yes im on the virge of leaving. I am sure you think "what sin is he carrying" etc etc. Im not.

In a nutshell. I no longer believe Joseph Smith is or was a prophet of God becasue of my research. I dont believe God would warrant or allow his own prophet who he chose to restore his gospel to to some of the things he did. Now, becasue I dont beleive him to be a prophet I no longer believe the church to be true, it's that simple.

[jimuk]

Oh my goodness. Some of you people need to stop repeating typical "TBM" answers over and over and over again. It does my head in. Please. try and be a little more open minded and not put everyone who leaves in your shoes. You just cannot see past your own testimonies, im sorry harsh words but its true.

I remember sitting in church thinking to myself, "I could never ever leave this church". Now look where I am ladies and gentlemen. Yes im on the virge of leaving. I am sure you think "what sin is he carrying" etc etc. Im not.

In a nutshell. I no longer believe Joseph Smith is or was a prophet of God becasue of my research. I dont believe God would warrant or allow his own prophet who he chose to restore his gospel to to some of the things he did. Now, becasue I dont beleive him to be a prophet I no longer believe the church to be true, it's that simple.

Very to the point Mike, if one doesent believe Joseph was a prophet then they cannot beleive in the lds faith/church.