My Testimony About the Controversial Stuff

[funkymonkey]

Hi Otterpop!

Your question applies to me...I am one of those that can't have kids...and it bothered me a LOT over the years that women's divine "destiny" was to bear children, and that just isn't an option for me.

It took me a long time to understand where I fit in to this equation. I now believe that He has an individual divine plan for every soul that is willing to follow Him.

I've listed this book before on this site but I'm going to do it again, sorry!

Eve and the Choice Made in Eden by Beverly Campell

This book is the only reason I came to honestly understand the sacred roles of men and women. I can't put it into words what I understand now, because it can't be summed up in a sentence or a paragraph; this book explains it best.

[OtterPop]

bytor, I don't think these scriptures address the concerns I posed.

[Vort]

I dont think any one is saying ALL men are this way or ALL women are that way.

No. Rather, what is being said is that men, as a group, are given the Priesthood because they are unworthy when compared with women, as a group.

Do you agree with this?

How about this:

The reason women do not have the Priesthood is because they are not worthy of it. By their natures, women are simply too petty, too distracted, too unable to work mighty works and think mighty thoughts for God to entrust his sacred Priesthood into their pitiful hands.

But that doesn't mean I look down on women! Not at all! Hey, I'm not talking about ALL women here. I'm just saying, women as a group are not strong or righteous enough to hold the Priesthood. Nothing personal, just stating an obvious fact. Political correctness aside, everyone knows that what I have just written is true.

Right?

No?

Well, I don't know what world YOU live in, but you certainly shouldn't take any offense at what I've said. If you can't handle the truth, keep quiet about it. And if you seriously think I am wrong, then you are in denial about the truth. Everyone for thousands of years has understood that men are better than women. Hey, it's a basic fact of life, just like the sun coming up in the morning.

In any case, don't stir up contention about it. I was simply stating my opinion. No need to get defensive or whatever.

Especially Christ. We need to remember who Christ is and leave him out of this discussion if its not going in a very Christ like direction. Lets be civilized here. Christ is perfect. We all agree with that.

The false premise that men are given the Priesthood by God because they are less righteous than women leads inexorably to the determination that Christ had the Priesthood because he was less righteous than women. I was simply pointing out the obvious.

It may be in poor taste to declare that the emperor has no clothes, but poor taste or not, the emperor is naked. (The pervert. No wonder the emperors are all men.)

[Maya]

Quess who was carrying the women for preast lable when stil a lutheran and who was thinking of preast as a calling... Then happened something weird... two missionaries knocked on my door... aha I tought those mormons wont let women be preasts! Lets see what I can do about it!

I think in the toughts of many, there is still an ecco from the world.... this is unfair why wemen can not be preasts, this is not equality!!... Why are not wemen heard by the leaders?? Why can they not talk in the church? those were the questions in many churches and they have left behind a whisper, that if not everything is alike in all other churches it must be wrong that wemen are not preasts.

The preasthood of the world is a completely different thing than ours! Also the woman IS a part of the preasthood by standing beside the Dear husband! A man may be the head of the family but woman is the neck that turns the head.

Woman and man are a unit that run a family. If the man wont "let the woman in the preasthood" and acts as if she would somehow be minor, he is doing a big mistake. Woman is the mans counselor and I believe that even our dear profet many times counsils with his wife, not only about things at home, but things in church. We wemen get our voice heard in preasthood and our leadership through the wifes of the leaders! Behind a great man there is always a great woman!

I cant tell you WHY but I never have had ANY problems about preasthood after the missionaries had the preasthood lesson with me. To me it is so crystal clare, that we just need to have some functions that are different. I never tought about whos responsibility is what.

If a man with preasthood is not present I believe a womans prayer is as strong, as a mans blessing, ! I dont need oil to make God hear me, I can pray direct to Him if I am clean. I can move mountains without preasthood.

About JS: Yes he was a man and not perfect. But I doubt VERY much some accusitions about him. But no-one will know for sure, the evidence is destroyed or changed, not before we die. I just ask where are his other kids?

Didnt JS even himself agree taht he has done some stupid things in his life. But plural marriage was NOT one of them. Poor Joseph, I think he really was afraid to tell about it because I think Emma wa kind of a strong person!

Plural marriage: It was ok before why not at the beginning of the church. But I am NOT sure that it was Gods will to stop practicing it. I have a feeling He said ok as He saw how difficult it made our life. As you know some men are ... too active for the woman they married... I dont know maybe it is ok for some. The fact is it is NOT here now. What was is past and about tomorrow we dont know!

IMHO

[bytor2112]

bytor, I don't think these scriptures address the concerns I posed.

I was attempting to show that men and women are inseparable in the plan of salvation. Men cannot receive Eternal Life and return to the Father without women and neither can women return without men. :)

As for raising children......perhaps in the millenium, those who were unable to bear children will. In the grand design of Heavenly Father, it will all be made perfect and right and will be just. I guess what you get if not children is the opportunity to learn and grow and if you are faithful become joint heirs with Christ and recieve all that our Father has promised us.

Men as Priesthood bearers and devoted husbands and women as mothers or devoted wives, we all have a very special role to play in the great plan. I think maybe Teancum was expressing this idea. Though, we don't literally share the Priesthood, women are entitled to all of the blessings of the Priesthood....especially in their homes from their husbands.

[funkymonkey]

Vort,

I am seriously getting confused by all of these statements flying around. Let me get this right...

"I'm just saying, women as a group are not strong or righteous enough to hold the Priesthood."

Is this truly what you believe?

If this is what you believe... I gotta say I completely dissagree.

Go to the Lord in honesty and tell him that women are not as strong as men...he'll make it very clear that is not the truth.

-----------------------------------------------

I don't know why this has to be a reasoning of who is "stronger" or who is "capable". Those are words used in contexts that the world values, not the Lord. Those words do not describe what the plan of salvation is about.

Remove the worldly ideals about what makes up a person and focus on the ways of the Lord. Search in humility and meekness...Dig deeper, it's a completely different perspective that allows the truth to be unveiled. The truth is there, and only He can manifest the truth.

I challenge you to get a copy of the book I mentioned. It will lay down the path to allow your eyes to be opened without the worldly confusion.

[Truegrits]

funkymonkey

Vort,

I am seriously getting confused by all of these statements flying around.

I am not speaking for Vort, but I think his post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek turning the table on the argument/statement that men are, by their nature, more prone to sin...less worthy etc.

IMO, he is showing that the same generalzations can be used against women...and not only is it not fair, but it is not the truth of things...

If my take on it is not correct, I am sure he will clarify it...:)

[Vort]

I am not speaking for Vort

You are now. Bingo.

[funkymonkey]

thanks for clarifying guys.

[Vort]

Go to the Lord in honesty and tell him that women are not as strong as men...he'll make it very clear that is not the truth.

Go to the Lord in honesty and tell him that men are not as virtuous as women...he'll make it very clear that is not the truth.

Remove the worldly ideals about what makes up a person and focus on the ways of the Lord. Search in humility and meekness...Dig deeper, it's a completely different perspective that allows the truth to be unveiled. The truth is there, and only He can manifest the truth.

Words of wisdom for all those who insist that men are less righteous than women.

[Heather]

Vort - im at a conference and just laughed outloud at your comment. Great tongue in cheek post.

[TEANCUM89]

Vort,

Not sure how I got a burr under you're saddle. I'm the head of the house and the Priesthood holder. We share all things, she makes me a better priesthood holder by her supporting nature. No new doctrine.

For every wicked women in the scriptures, I can show you ten men. Dosen't really matter, in my world women tend to be more Christ like. We have had this same discussion in HP quorum, they all agreed that there wives were more Christ like then they are. Maybe it's a perception because of the maternal instincts that "most " women have that people think they are more Christ like. Are all women that way, no, are all men that way no. I for one am glad am a "Dirty male". As for what you teach you're sons, good luck I'm sure you will teach them to be Christ like. Hope you have a great day

[TEANCUM89]

Vector,

I just read you're other post, I think I was not very clear. I in know way think men are un-worthy and that is way we need the priesthood. Sorry if it came across that way.

T

[TEANCUM89]

I was attempting to show that men and women are inseparable in the plan of salvation. Men cannot receive Eternal Life and return to the Father without women and neither can women return without men. :)

As for raising children......perhaps in the millenium, those who were unable to bear children will. In the grand design of Heavenly Father, it will all be made perfect and right and will be just. I guess what you get if not children is the opportunity to learn and grow and if you are faithful become joint heirs with Christ and recieve all that our Father has promised us.

Men as Priesthood bearers and devoted husbands and women as mothers or devoted wives, we all have a very special role to play in the great plan. I think maybe Teancum was expressing this idea. Though, we don't literally share the Priesthood, women are entitled to all of the blessings of the Priesthood....especially in their homes from their husbands.

This was the ideal I was trying to get across:) If I confuse you guys, just imagine how my children must feel:D

T

[funkymonkey]

(this is totally just my own approach)

I think there are two ways the world/culture gets us mixed up in this...

#1 - Old worldly - Men are superior to women

#2 - New worldly (in the last 30 years) - Women are superior to men

Once we understand that these ideals are coming from culture and not the Lord, then we can work to dismiss them and seek the truth from the Lord. ...Easier said than done.

Edited August 7, 2008 by funkymonkey

[OtterPop]

For every wicked women in the scriptures, I can show you ten men.

No doubt this is true -- but you need to consider how many more men than women are mentioned in the scriptures at all.

[Elphaba]

Homosexuality is a sin.

Hi Bytor,

Just a quick clarification. Homosexuality is not considered a sin in the Church. Acting out and participating in homosexual acts is the sin.

Elphaba

[pam]

No. Rather, what is being said is that men, as a group, are given the Priesthood because they are unworthy when compared with women, as a group.

Do you agree with this?

How about this:

The reason women do not have the Priesthood is because they are not worthy of it. By their natures, women are simply too petty, too distracted, too unable to work mighty works and think mighty thoughts for God to entrust his sacred Priesthood into their pitiful hands.

But that doesn't mean I look down on women! Not at all! Hey, I'm not talking about ALL women here. I'm just saying, women as a group are not strong or righteous enough to hold the Priesthood. Nothing personal, just stating an obvious fact. Political correctness aside, everyone knows that what I have just written is true.

Right?

No?

Well, I don't know what world YOU live in, but you certainly shouldn't take any offense at what I've said. If you can't handle the truth, keep quiet about it. And if you seriously think I am wrong, then you are in denial about the truth. Everyone for thousands of years has understood that men are better than women. Hey, it's a basic fact of life, just like the sun coming up in the morning.

In any case, don't stir up contention about it. I was simply stating my opinion. No need to get defensive or whatever.

The false premise that men are given the Priesthood by God because they are less righteous than women leads inexorably to the determination that Christ had the Priesthood because he was less righteous than women. I was simply pointing out the obvious.

It may be in poor taste to declare that the emperor has no clothes, but poor taste or not, the emperor is naked. (The pervert. No wonder the emperors are all men.)

Vort that was awesome..I loved it.

[bytor2112]

Hi Bytor,

Just a quick clarification. Homosexuality is not considered a sin in the Church. Acting out and participating in homosexual acts is the sin.

Elphaba

Thanks for the clarification..........

[FlaviusHambonius]

Hi Bytor,

Just a quick clarification. Homosexuality is not considered a sin in the Church. Acting out and participating in homosexual acts is the sin.

Elphaba

I'ts kind of like having a hot cup of Folgers de-caf on a chilly morning or a chilly bottle of O'Douls on a hot summer's day.

Or like slick Willy used to say 'I didn't inhale'

[breeb]

No. Rather, what is being said is that men, as a group, are given the Priesthood because they are unworthy when compared with women, as a group.

Do you agree with this?

How about this:

The reason women do not have the Priesthood is because they are not worthy of it. By their natures, women are simply too petty, too distracted, too unable to work mighty works and think mighty thoughts for God to entrust his sacred Priesthood into their pitiful hands.

But that doesn't mean I look down on women! Not at all! Hey, I'm not talking about ALL women here. I'm just saying, women as a group are not strong or righteous enough to hold the Priesthood. Nothing personal, just stating an obvious fact. Political correctness aside, everyone knows that what I have just written is true.

Right?

No?

Well, I don't know what world YOU live in, but you certainly shouldn't take any offense at what I've said. If you can't handle the truth, keep quiet about it. And if you seriously think I am wrong, then you are in denial about the truth. Everyone for thousands of years has understood that men are better than women. Hey, it's a basic fact of life, just like the sun coming up in the morning.

In any case, don't stir up contention about it. I was simply stating my opinion. No need to get defensive or whatever.

The false premise that men are given the Priesthood by God because they are less righteous than women leads inexorably to the determination that Christ had the Priesthood because he was less righteous than women. I was simply pointing out the obvious.

It may be in poor taste to declare that the emperor has no clothes, but poor taste or not, the emperor is naked. (The pervert. No wonder the emperors are all men.)

Ok, to answer your 1st question: No absolutely not. I don't think that is why men have the priesthood and women don't. To be honest with you I dont know why men have it and women dont. Never thought about it. Its not something that important to me. What is important to me is having the priesthood in my home. Whether it comes from me or my husband doesnt matter. Just so long as its there. I have my roles, he has his. (By the way, I go to work and he stays home with the kids.)

Im not defensive. I dont really have a side in this discussion. I was however offended at your crass example of Christ being unworthy. I get your point but I saw it as disrespectful.

[funkymonkey]

I agree, Breeb.