Repentance question

[WANDERER]

What would Jesus do?

[FlaviusHambonius]

What a dark and desolate world, the world of prostitution and pornograpy is and has been since the beggining.

Yes we have porno stars such as Jenna Jamison who has made millions and millions off of the several billions that go into the porn industry. It's an industry that just keeps getting bigger and bigger and more lucrative every day with no end in sight.

We have thousands of mostly young girls from all walks of life and from various nations who have been caught up in the sex-slave trade who were told they were coming to different countries to better themselves with jobs and the hope of a better future just to be snared in a web of deceit and either put into brothels as sex slaves or to be bought off like cattle by some men at the end of the line.

Then we have the young runaways coming from broken homes, who find themselves on the streets prostituting there bodies in order to eat and have some kind of shelter.

Many of them become addicted to drugs in order to cope and then the desire for the drugs become bigger than the desire to eat and have shelter in many instances.

And then of course we have the high society hookers who make six figures annually.

Of course this is just breaking the surface of the industry and I'm not stating anything here that most of you are not aware of.

Several years ago I met a girl while out with some freinds. We talked and exchanged numbers. A few days went by and she called me and we conversed a while. As time went on she began to tell me her lifes story.

Her Mother, who suffered from schizophrenia and who was homeless, walking the streets, was raped one night and that is how my freind came into this world. The rapist was never caught.

Shortly after my freind was born, she was sent into the home of her half-brother and half sister to be raised. She lived there until she was six or seven until the Father of her brother and sister wanted no part of her anymore, because she wasn't his blood daughter, thus sending her off to a foster home. She lived under the roof of a woman who showed no love or compassion towards her whatsoever and was forced to stay outside all day only to let her in at lunchtime for perhaps a sandwitch if she was lucky, then it was back outside so this foster mother could watch TV undisterbed untill Dad came home. Of course the foster Mother hid very well the fact of what was going on and played stupid.

My freind told me if it were not for the love of her foster Dad she would have never made it. She loved him very much and always considered him her Dad until the day he died in about 2003. Her foster mother passed away in the early 80's according to my recollection, and needless to say, she didn't shed one tear--she had only distain for that woman.

She ran away at 14 years of age with a girlfreind for many months, had a sugardaddy who took care of her and her freind, then made there way back home.

After awhile she ran away again, this time when she was 15 to get married to her boyfreind who was 16. They settled in Las Vegas. Her husband was working as a cook on a graveyard shift and as she was walking to meet him at work early one morning, a man grabbed her and drug her to a remote area and raped her. Not long after this the marriage dissolved, she hit the road again with her girlfreind, this time traveling to the Northeast for awhile then living in Florida for about four years. Again, she had a Sugardaddy that took care of her during the time in Florida.

Then she ventured off to the LA area for a brief time and while there was involved in prostitution for a short time--as you can see a pretty messed up life to this point.

During this time her sister got discharged from the Air Force in Texas and moved to Utah.

Shortly after my freind moved to Utah to be with her sister and her life slowly changed for the better--she met a good guy and got married for almost eight years, then sadly divorced. She then pursued college and got her degree and a few years later moved to San Diego where she is doing well. She always had a strong belief in Christ over the years during all of this disfunction. She started to go to church a few years ago, she's a non-denominational Christian and even went to the Holy Land on a tour a few years back and was baptized in the Jordan River, and loved her time spent over there.

I have talked about the LDS faith with her over the years and some things make sense to her while others don't--she has a problem accepting the Joseph Smith story.

I guess the reason I posted this is because we simply do not know or have walked in someone else's shoes. We all have different circumstances and events that occur in our lives to shape this journey we call life. To simply call a person 'A Whore' while being ignorant of ones life story is well, just that....ignorance.

We are all children of the most high and blessed because of he who was sent.

HB

[inquirer_Jn1717]

What would Jesus do? -wanderer

Probably refrain from using the degrading term "whore."

Complete and total forgiveness would be offered her by the Savior on the condition that she never engaged in those sins again.

But is the forgiveness from Christ given on certain conditions besides repentance itself? "to repent" in Greek is "metanoeō" which means to "to think differently or afterwards, that is, reconsider" (Strong) or "to change one's purpose." (Vine)

Now if you have changed your purpose in life then there will definitely be fruit of that for all to see (like opening up a flower shop instead, or maybe she starts a ministry to bring others out of the porn industry, or simply gets married and raises God-fearing kids, or even sends all the royalties to starving children in Africa, you name it).

But is forgiveness from Christ given only after the fruit of it is displayed or depend on the execution of the fruit? Or does Christ forgive at the moment of repentance, regardless of the fruit to prove it?

Look at John 8:1-11. Jesus forgave the adulteress immediately, without any visible proof of genuine repentance, but he knew what was in her heart.

If once forgiven, can the forgiveness be revoked? Jesus told her to sin no more, but if forgiveness can be taken away, then we have all lost and gained it several times today! If so, how can we ever rest secure in our Father's love?

[Vort]

What would Jesus do?

Good question. I don't know. I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't call a whore "jane", though. Unless perhaps that was her name.

[Vort]

What would Jesus do?

Probably refrain from using the degrading term "whore."

Apparently not. Searching the online scriptures for "whore" gives 32 hits. For example, Leviticus 21:7 reads, "They shall not take a wife that is a whore, or profane".

[MarginOfError]

But is forgiveness from Christ given only after the fruit of it is displayed or depend on the execution of the fruit? Or does Christ forgive at the moment of repentance, regardless of the fruit to prove it?

Technically, I think the moment of official forgiveness is at the Judgment. We talk about repentance as if it is a word that has a past tense. But under our definition of repentance, where we have to never go back to the sin, we can't really say we've ever repented until we're in a situation where we couldn't possibly commit the sin again. Thus, we can really only say that we are repenting, and just given the benefit of the doubt until we've completed the repentance.

[WANDERER]

Leviticus is an important book in that every single verse underlines the need for and the power of Christ's atonement and His saving grace that we partake in when we undergo repentance. Inoffensive words can be used to harm others.

When we use them to diminish others, whether they work in the porn industry or are tempted by pornography, we tell them that they are unworthy and worthless and this hinders their path to repentance and seeking forgiveness. God has the power to heal us and help us triumph over sin and we can be cleansed from sin through sincere repentance. What is the worth of a soul...how can we show acceptance, kindness and love for all people.

[inquirer_Jn1717]

Apparently not. Searching the online scriptures for "whore" gives 32 hits. For example, Leviticus 21:7 reads, "They shall not take a wife that is a whore, or profane".

Yes, if someone "goes a whoring" you could accurately call them a whore. But with the same logic couldn't you use the term "Prostitute?"

Yeah, big diff, whoopi. But one term is said with a sense of vindictiveness or disgust, not at all like the kindness of God that is conducive to leading a person to repentance! The other term, while fare from "nice" simply states the fact without any judgment.

Quick question: does ancient Hebrew have only one term? I think so. Was the KJV translated by a church who hates evil more than it loves good? Probably. My NASB translation uses "prostitute" or "harlotry." The term "whore" is absent.

Seriously dude, no point trying to justify yourself here.

[inquirer_Jn1717]

Technically, I think the moment of official forgiveness is at the Judgment. We talk about repentance as if it is a word that has a past tense. But under our definition of repentance, where we have to never go back to the sin, we can't really say we've ever repented until we're in a situation where we couldn't possibly commit the sin again. Thus, we can really only say that we are repenting, and just given the benefit of the doubt until we've completed the repentance.

Then don't you remain quite unsure about your standing with God? From moment to moment how can you be sure that your are in his love? Would you wait until your earthly father died to read his will and find out whether you were forgiven after all for that time you did X?

You see in my understanding of repentance, I didn't get to repent of one sin at a time, but all sin forever. And of course, the reality is that like a dog to his vomit, I will go right back to sin on a routine basis, even those specific sins that I said I never would. Now sure, there are certain sins which as far as I know are behind me, but those are a few drops in the bucket!

Read Romans 7. Didn't Paul genuinely repent, but still find himself sinning?

24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Romans 7:24-25 (NASB)

Romans 8:1-2 (NASB)

Paul did not have a "wait and see" attitude about being forgiven by God for his sins. He considered himself redeemed, now and forever.

You see, you can never get away from a situation where you cannot sin. If that is true, then your definition of repentance is flawed. Though you are right, repentance cannot be a one-time act in the past. But it must be a once and for all commitment, that is true repentance which leads to fruit, though it cannot in this life stop us from from ever sinning.

Edited August 9, 2008 by inquirer_Jn1717

[funkymonkey]

Vort's missing a sensitivity chip.

People in biblical times also drank, and had plural wives, and had long hair. Does this mean that it's ok for all of us to go out drinking and getting multiple spouses and grow our hair out?

We are in 2008...our language had changed. It's time to move forward in our thinking. The acceptance of this word in today's society drives judgement, diviciveness, and contention.

We are supposed to be a people of love, compassion, and character. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of "justifying" the use of this word.

[lilered]

Last night as I was channel surfing I paused on a documentary on "E" about a "porn" actress named Jenna Jameson. I listened to an interview segment with her and was struck with several thoughts. The first thought was that she was very beautiful, very well spoken and conservatively dressed. I wondered what steps she would have to take for repentance and to be recieved in baptism. Her sins are different from another 's who may have been sexual promiscuous, because her acts have been recorded for others to see and she has a star like status because of her films and has apparently built quite a financial empire as a result of her involvment in this type of lifestyle. She would obviously have to divest from any form of this business, yet people would always have access to her films. How would she be received by members of the church? She could never really escape her past. I know the atonement is for everyone, I wonder what would happen in a case like this.....

God loves everyone and wants each of us to return to him. We are to love the sinner, and hate the sin. Assuming this individual truly repented of her sins, gave up her way of life and forsake it evermore (severed all ties) and then went about being baptized etc. She would no doubt be baptized.

Just because she did all this, doesn't mean her lifes work (sins) to date, wouldn't come back to haunt her. We face the same predicatement when we sin. We may obtain the forgiveness of our loved ones, God, etc. but that doesn't eliminate justice being served.

Me thinks that many members may have a tough time loving this sister if she were to move into their ward, given they had knowledge of her previous life. Shouldn't be that way, but not all of us are perfect yet and so this may be a challenge for us.

[funkymonkey]

"More than 80% of all prostitutes are victims of sexual abuse in their childhood and youth." Source

Just wanted to put this statistic up. The lives of the people that end up at this place, are much more complex.

[choice]

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Or perhaps a harmful activity by any other name would be just as harmful.

I've become accustomed to the terms 'whore' and 'whoredom' as terms used in the scriptures to denote participation in specific behaviours.

The words harlot, fornication, prostitute, porn, porn star etc , for me, exist within the same framework of meaning.

I know that words and our use of them can create, or destroy.

The negative terms above, may be destructive, but they refer directly to destructive behaviours which I read in the scriptures the prophets have continually warned about.

Etymology dictionaries seem to agree; Greek word for fornicate = pornos (or variation of),

and Old Eng 'hore' = prostitute, harlot; Goth 'hors'= adulterer, fornicator.

Why is it that some words have more emotive effect than others in the same category?

Is it the way we have heard them used within popular culture, eg music, film?

[WANDERER]

When someone uses a racial term of abuse, we identify it as racism. We have no difficulty in seeing it for what it is...hatespeech.

[srm]

All sins can be forgiven, except cohabitation with a washed-up MMA fighter.

very funny!

[Vort]

Yes, if someone "goes a whoring" you could accurately call them a whore. But with the same logic couldn't you use the term "Prostitute?"

Sure. But I don't recall objecting to anyone using the term "prostitute", so I'm not sure what you're driving at.

Yeah, big diff, whoopi. But one term is said with a sense of vindictiveness or disgust, not at all like the kindness of God that is conducive to leading a person to repentance! The other term, while fare from "nice" simply states the fact without any judgment.

If you truly feel that way, perhaps you should quit using the vindictive, emotionally-loaded term "prostitute".

Quick question: does ancient Hebrew have only one term? I think so.

Unlike you, I'm not a scholar of ancient Hebrew. But I'm pretty sure ancient Hebrew has more than only one term.

Was the KJV translated by a church who hates evil more than it loves good? Probably.

Intereting, though useless, distinction.

My NASB translation uses "prostitute" or "harlotry." The term "whore" is absent.

Huh. My KJV uses the word "whore".

Seriously dude, no point trying to justify yourself here.

Seriously, d00d, I don't need to justify myself. I am right in this.

[Vort]

Vort's missing a sensitivity chip.

3. Personal attacks, name calling, flaming, and judgments against other members will not be tolerated.

We are in 2008...our language had changed. It's time to move forward in our thinking.

Acceptance of whoredom is moving backward, not forward.

The acceptance of this word in today's society drives judgement, diviciveness, and contention.

Not at all. Rather, those who seek to minimize or justify sin drive judgment, divisiveness and contention.

We are supposed to be a people of love, compassion, and character. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of "justifying" the use of this word.

Then perhaps you should not justify its use, just as you should not eat strawberry ice cream if it makes you uncomfortable. But your discomfort has little or nothing to do with anyone else.

Interestingly, of all the people bleating about the evils of my "judgmentalism" in using the term "whore", the only personal judgments leveled against individuals has been their judgments against me -- for using a perfectly valid, non-vulgar, scriptural term.

No use trying to justify yourselves.

[Vort]

When someone uses a racial term of abuse, we identify it as racism. We have no difficulty in seeing it for what it is...hatespeech.

Lovely, then, that no one is engaging in hate speech. Except perhaps those who insist on personal ad hominems against Vort.

[BenRaines]

I would like to see this line of dialogue stopped at this point. Far from the original posters idea on repentance.

Thank you,

Ben Raines

[funkymonkey]

sorry, Ben. Didn't see your post in time.

3. Personal attacks, name calling, flaming, and judgments against other members will not be tolerated.

QUOTE]

... after seeing what you did to Normalmormon... what's the phrase, the pot calling the kettle black?

I would really like to PM to discuss with you individually why that word carries such a heavy meaning...but something tells me that won't make a bit of difference.

Edited August 10, 2008 by funkymonkey

[Palerider]

Since we can't be nice here...this thread is now closed.