Should i know the church is true

[Connie]

Should “I Know” the Church is True? : The Millennial Star

[Guest tomk]

KNOWING is a mystery of God.

Those who know these things are true ... know by the Spirit.

It is not OF this world!!!!!!

That is why science cannot measure it.

That is why we cannot explain it in a way that makes sense to others.

But none of these ( in the eyes of some ) "failures" to explain it in a way that "makes sense" or to explain it AT ALL -- none of that means the thing is not true.

Joseph Smith said it best:

JS-H 1: 25

25 So it was with me. I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.

These things can be learned but they cannot be taught.

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

he that will not harden his heart

in other words, demanding PROOF for the 5 senses.

[Guest bren1975]

Should “I Know” the Church is True? : The Millennial Star

Are you asking the question, or just posting the article?

I've often squirmed because of all the "I know"s in testimony meetings. Some things I know, but a lot I don't.

However, we are commanded to have faith, not necessarily knowledge. Faith is the "evidence of things not seen", and therefore, not knowledge. Knowledge is one of the fruits, or rewards of our faith.

Is belief enough? The scriptures say the devil believes, and it doesn't do him much good. But belief is a start, and as soon as we act on the belief, it becomes faith. That's where I fit in. I believe it and I act on it. Someday, I'll know it all, but till then, I'll continue to work on my faith.:)

[Connie]

Are you asking the question, or just posting the article?

I've often squirmed because of all the "I know"s in testimony meetings. Some things I know, but a lot I don't.

However, we are commanded to have faith, not necessarily knowledge. Faith is the "evidence of things not seen", and therefore, not knowledge. Knowledge is one of the fruits, or rewards of our faith.

Is belief enough? The scriptures say the devil believes, and it doesn't do him much good. But belief is a start, and as soon as we act on the belief, it becomes faith. That's where I fit in. I believe it and I act on it. Someday, I'll know it all, but till then, I'll continue to work on my faith.:)

Sorry, guess i was a little vague. I really liked this article and thought some of you might like to read it, too. I already know the church is true, so i'm not asking the question for myself but feel free to discuss it.

I think you're right, though, we have to start out with a belief or at least a desire to believe as Alma says in the Book of Mormon. But i think our ultimate goal is knowledge, which is why i liked the article.

[Hemidakota]

Actually, I did enjoy the article and thank you for posting it.

What was interesting to me is the understanding on a definition of Apologist. I guess at times, I fill the same connection since I would defend the prophets.

consider myself an apologist in the Church, meaning that I have covenanted to sustain and defend it from error. I always bear my testimony that “I know” the Church is true, and that “I know” the Book of Mormon is true, and that “I know” Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and that “I know” that President Monson is a prophet of God, and that “I know” that Jesus Christ is our only Savior and Redeemer. The reason why is that I have received an unmistakable witness from God, through His Spirit, that it is so. Come rain or come shine, I will always hold on to this sure witness. Should it be any different?

At times, I would occasionally bring up the mistaken LDS usage of the term, "I KNOW", within meetings or talks to educate the Saints. This term should be left to those who received this by witness from first hand accounting of what is being presented as a binding testament.

As Elder Oaks pointed out;

Elder Oaks goes on to explain how we come to “know” these truths. It would seem to me that a testimony that doesn’t “know” certain truths is not much of a testimony at all. In that case, it would be a belief, but not a firm conviction of truth. Elder Oaks seems to be teaching us that we need to “know” the doctrines of the gospel are true, not just “believe” in them. If we are new in the Church, and do not yet “know” truth but “believe” in it by the faith and words of others, then we should be striving diligently to gain such a testimony of the Spirit so we can say, each individually, that “I know.”

In closing his talk Elder Oaks said this:

I close with my testimony. I know that we have a Heavenly Father, whose plan brings us to earth and provides the conditions and destiny of our eternal journey. I know that we have a Savior, Jesus Christ, whose teachings define the plan and whose Atonement gives the assurance of immortality and the opportunity for eternal life. I know that the Father and the Son appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith to restore the fulness of the gospel in these latter days. And I know that we are led today by a prophet, President Thomas S. Monson, who holds the keys to authorize priesthood holders to perform the ordinances prescribed for our progress toward eternal life.

What this is telling me, Elder Oaks has that special witness of what been received by first hand.

I usually would close in this manner in illustrating when using this term in a slight variant usage:

"I know, not by faith, not by hope, that Jesus is the very Christ that was called to be our Savior and redeemer by Heavenly Father."

[Hemidakota]

Tom, thanks for pointing out the scriptures in where Alma states the following on how these mysteries are received - by first hand from those beyond the veil:

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

[VisionOfLehi]

People should absolutely know.

But they should not assume they know.

I have knowledge. A testimony that has grown slowly and encompasses small aspects of the Gospel piece by piece. These things I know.

They can not be disillusioned. They can not be proven wrong. The sky is up. One and one is two. Joseph Smith was the Prophet of the Restoration of the Gospel.

But some things I believe and don't know yet. I don't know Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden. I really believe it, but it hasn't been necessary for me have a witness of that, yet.

So, yes. Members should most assuredly know the Truth, but they should not confuse it with belief. The two are in fact different: knowledge and belief.

[richlittell]

It is very strange that I just had a similar discussion with a professional peer of mine (who is so erudite that he constantly questions the prophets and apostles position on things, looks beyond the mark, and can't seem to understand the simpleness of the gospel).

At times, I would occasionally bring up the mistaken LDS usage of the term, "I KNOW", within meetings or talks to educate the Saints. This term should be left to those who received this by witness from first hand accounting of what is being presented as a binding testament.

Semantics will send us to hell in a handbasket. I would never dare stamp on another's personal testimony whether they "know" the Book of Mormon to be true or whether they "believe" the Book of Mormon (or any other aspect of the gospel) to be true. Who are we to judge at what level beyond faith on any particular matter another person stands?

So let me just state this for myself.

I KNOW the Book of Mormon is true and is the word of God though I have never seen the plates of brass, for the Holy Ghost has bore this out to me.

I KNOW that Jesus is the Christ, though I do not have a special witness of him physically and he has never visited me personally, for on this the Holy Spirit has pierced my heart.

I KNOW that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, though I certainly have no evidence other than the work he left behind (which is a testimony itself), I KNOW so because the Holy Spirit has impressed it upon my heart and mind.

I KNOW, understand, practice and have experienced, that tithing is a true principle of the gospel, first by way of fear in obeying the Lord's commandments, later by practice, and finally, by a firm testimony bore to me by the Spirit.

I KNOW many other principles, to be true, for the Holy Spirit is the testifier of all truth, and what is knowledge if it is not truth?

And I bear my testimony that I have a right to KNOW the truth of all things and I need not be at the head of this church to do so (though I would never be allowed to know beyond things already revealed). I even have a right to KNOW the truth of historically disputed facts by pure testimony of the Holy Spirit (though, of course, we should research it out in our minds first, on all things considered). If I were a captain in the army and needed to know the position of my enemy, I could do so without reconnaissance if the Holy Spirit saw fit to reveal it to me.

I need not have a first hand account of one single thing that the Holy Spirit sees fit to reveal to me, that is the whole essence of the gospel, is it not? If not, then we will go the way of the apostatized church, relying on our own senses and intellect for things that were never meant to be known other than by the Holy Spirit.

[Hemidakota]

Either we believe, having faith, or we know, receiving that witness.

Thanks Rich for your posting. :)

[BenRaines]

The scriptures, when talking of gifts we are given, say that for some it is the gift of knowing and others for believing on the testimonies of those that know. Is it required to know? No. It is necessary to believe.

Ben Raines

[MormonMama]

Some things I KNOW. Some things I BELIEVE. These are likely not regarding the same things as they would for someone else. We are all at different places in our journey.

[Moksha]

Claiming knowledge for those things we believe? Would this not make it rather hard to be true to ourselves?

For what it is worth, believing is not less macho than saying you know.

[Hemidakota]

Exactly :)

[richlittell]

I agree with MormonMama, that's why I think we should be careful in counselling others as to when they should use know and believe.

Some of the other comments here confuse me, though.

If I said I know the Book of Mormon is true and it is the word of God, are some of you saying that would be wrong? Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

And the same would go for our belief in Jesus Christ, and in the Church, and in the prophet and etc.

Is it wrong to say that I know that Jesus is the Christ, or that I know this church is true and that Christ is at the head of it? Or that I know our current President is a prophet appointed by God?

Of course we begin in all things with a little faith and hope and belief, but as we mature, ought we not be saying that we "know" these things? And if we can know these things without first hand accounts, can we not know all things that the Spirit is willing to reveal to us? It seems to me that if we say that there are certain aspects of the gospel that we know and others that we can only believe, does this not undermine the power of the Holy Spirit? (of course we can't be omnipotent, I just mean concerning all matters and points of doctrines that have been revealed in these latter days, for example, that God and Christ are beings of Flesh and Bone and etc..

Someone straighten me out if I'm missing the point here.

[mnn727]

I've often squirmed because of all the "I know"s in testimony meetings. Some things I know, but a lot I don't.

You and me both, way too many people say they 'KNOW' when they actually "BELIEVE"

John 20: 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast aseen me, thou hast believed: bblessed are they that have not seen, and yet have cbelieved.

Thomas saw with his own eyes and touched with his own hands, he KNEW, but we will be blessed for BELIEF.

I highly recommend that if you have BELIEF and not KNOWLEDGE then "I BELIEVE" or "I have FAITH" is how you should bear your testimony - according to Christs own words there is nothing wrong with believing, believers will be blessed.

Edited August 22, 2008 by mnn727

[Connie]

Alma 32:30-34

i'll just quote 33, 34:

And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

"A testimony of the gospel is a personal witness borne to our souls by the Holy Ghost that certain facts of eternal significance are true and that we know them to be true."

As quoted in the article from a talk entitled Testimony by Elder Oaks

We CAN know certain things through the spirit. I would submit that there are different levels of knowledge as well as different levels of belief. As MormonMama said "we are all at different places in our journey."

A testimony is a very personal thing. I don't mind people saying "i know" nor "i believe." Their testimony is between them and God. I think there are some people who would say "i know" when it's obvious that it's just a belief and perhaps "i believe" when maybe it's a little more than that.

I have had a personal witness from the spirit, and i can say I KNOW Jesus is the Christ, my Redeemer and Savior. I KNOW he lives, even though i have not seen him. I KNOW we are lead by a prophet of God today. I KNOW Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God and restored the true and living church. I KNOW the Book of Mormon is the word of God. My testimony may be simple, but these are the things i KNOW. In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

[Moksha]

You want knowing? Okay, try this on for size:

Descartes walks into a bar and the bartender asks him whether he wants a beer. Descartes responds, "I think not," and promptly disappears.

[MormonMama]

I highly recommend that if you have BELIEF and not KNOWLEDGE then "I BELIEVE" or "I have FAITH" is how you should bear your testimony - according to Christs own words there is nothing wrong with believing, believers will be blessed.

I wholeheartedly agree. But I also think that if we truly KNOW something, then we should not be afraid to say so.

And only each of us as an individual can say what that is for us. We can't speak for others.

You want knowing? Okay, try this on for size:

Descartes walks into a bar and the bartender asks him whether he wants a beer. Descartes responds, "I think not," and promptly disappears.

Lol, cute!

[VisionOfLehi]

My method of testimony bearing involves testifying... I think I use believe on occasion, when I haven't had a confirmation by the Holy Ghost about a particular thing.

Can a testimony be shared that doesn't use "I know?" If you don't know, would it technically be called something else? Bearing witness?

Just questions that popped in my head. *shrug*

[Connie]

My method of testimony bearing involves testifying... I think I use believe on occasion, when I haven't had a confirmation by the Holy Ghost about a particular thing.

Can a testimony be shared that doesn't use "I know?" If you don't know, would it technically be called something else? Bearing witness?

Just questions that popped in my head. *shrug*

Yes, of course you can share your testimony of what you believe. That is what i did before i gained my spiritual witness, and i used the term "i believe." Bearing witness, testimony... it's all the same. You have to try out the seed first (believe) and then when it starts to grow and you feel those stirings of the spirit you know, but it does have to continually be nourished until it becomes a perfect knowledge. Don't think i'm at perfect knowledge myself, but i know what i know.

[MormonMama]

You have to try out the seed first (believe) and then when it starts to grow and you feel those stirings of the spirit you know, but it does have to continually be nourished until it becomes a perfect knowledge.

Very well said. :)

[Guest ceeboo]

Hi all,

Please, please, please be patient with me on this, I am not getting this at all.

Context ( I am not LDS ) but I have read the part of BofM and see where your told to pray and ask if it is true.

I know it's true because I know it. I believe it's true because I have faith. I know it's true because I have witness of it. I know it's true because the BofM tells me so.

:confused:

I guess it is very plausible that I do not and may never understand this because of my religion.

I thought I would lend my own perspective to the thread.

I really do appreciate all the contributions.:)

God bless,

Carl

[Misshalfway]

Hi all,

Please, please, please be patient with me on this, I am not getting this at all.

Context ( I am not LDS ) but I have read the part of BofM and see where your told to pray and ask if it is true.

I know it's true because I know it. I believe it's true because I have faith. I know it's true because I have witness of it. I know it's true because the BofM tells me so.

:confused:

I guess it is very plausible that I do not and may never understand this because of my religion.

I thought I would lend my own perspective to the thread.

I really do appreciate all the contributions.:)

God bless,

Carl

Hello Catholic Friend!

What is your understanding of the concept of personal revelation?

[Guest ceeboo]

Hello Catholic Friend!

What is your understanding of the concept of personal revelation?

Hello back my LDS friend,

I have zero personal revelation. My understanding of the concept is that I believe God used men ( old testement ) to reveal what God wanted to be known.

Are you suggesting that ALL LDS have had personal revelation and thus KNOW it is true?

God bless,

Carl

[pam]

Not all ceeboo. There are people that have been members ALL their life and have never received this personal revelation to them. Perhaps they haven't asked with sincerity to know of this.