Noah and the flood.....

[bytor2112]

I watched a Discovery channel program about whether the Biblical account really occurred. They made a pretty compelling case that Noah could not have built the Ark nor could there have been a worldwide flood. There isn't and geological evidence to support the story of the worldwide flood. So, is the account literal or perhaps a retelling of a Babylonian disaster that has been recorded in the Epic of Gilgamesh and other epics?

[Hemidakota]

The gospel according to the Discovery Channel [humor]

Questions that are constantly asked: do we actual know with surety that Mount Everest existed during the time of Noah? What was the tallest mountain on record during his tenure as Prophet? Could there be enough water even to cover the earth? How did the animals migrated from all parts of the earth or did they? Were the lands divided or not during Noah time? Where did Noah build the Ark?

And more....anyone?

[HiJolly]

I watched a Discovery channel program about whether the Biblical account really occurred. They made a pretty compelling case that Noah could not have built the Ark nor could there have been a worldwide flood. There isn't and geological evidence to support the story of the worldwide flood. So, is the account literal or perhaps a retelling of a Babylonian disaster that has been recorded in the Epic of Gilgamesh and other epics?

A very good question. In my experience, about 98% of the Church members believe in a global flood, as evidenced not only by my anecdotal evidence, but by articles in the Ensign, Meridianmagazine, etc.

I don't believe in a global flood, but I don't care to really make a point of it, either, with my friends in the Church. I do find it very interesting that The Epic discusses a flood, and that the story of Job (under another name) is found in writings older than the book of Job in the Old Testament.

As President Packer says, not all truths are useful (in context of the Church and our faith in Jesus Christ). I have studied the science, have studied the scriptures, and am content in my beliefs.

HiJolly

[deblldo]

Hi,

I just want to say that i do think that the flood was a global one as the bible say's it was, but i always find it funny when people assume it isnt simply because they cant comprehend it them selves. There are many wonders and miracles recorded in the bible that i dont understand, but i also know that i dont have to as God's way's are higher than mine.

any way just wanted to say that, hope you dont mind.

deb.

[HiJolly]

The gospel according to the Discovery Channel [humor]

Questions that are constantly asked: do we actual know with surety that Mount Everest existed during the time of Noah? What was the tallest mountain on record during his tenure as Prophet? Could there be enough water even to cover the earth? How did the animals migrated from all parts of the earth or did they? Were the lands divided or not during Noah time? Where did Noah build the Ark?

And more....anyone?

Yes, that "enough water" one is quite telling, as are the others. Good questions for us all.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Hi,

I just want to say that i do think that the flood was a global one as the bible say's it was,

Where does the Bible say the flood was "global"?

but i always find it funny when people assume it isnt simply because they cant comprehend it them selves. There are many wonders and miracles recorded in the bible that i dont understand, but i also know that i dont have to as God's way's are higher than mine.

any way just wanted to say that, hope you dont mind.

deb.

I agree that God's ways are higher than ours, and that we should not doubt simply because we can't think of how God might have done it.

HiJolly

[MarginOfError]

I read in the October 2002 (?) issue of Discover Magazine (I'm fuzzy on the date, but I"m sure it was around then) about the moon and some comparisons between the geological structure of the moon and the earth. One of the things they pointed out was that the rocks on earth contain a certain amount of water. In fact, it was estimated, that if all of the water in those rocks could be drawn out, it would be enough water to fill the oceans six over. That's a lot of water! and I suppose one possible interpretation of the 'fountains of the great deep' (see below).

In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. (Genesis 7:14)

Disclaimer: I do not endorse this interpretation. Just food for thought.

[Vanhin]

Well I go with the global flood. Here is the explanation from the Guide to the Scriptures, which is a fairly recent addition the Standard Works study helps.

GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES

Flood At Noah’s Time

During Noah’s time the earth was completely covered with water. This was the baptism of the earth and symbolized a cleansing (1 Pet. 3: 20-21).

God will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh, Gen. 6: 17 (Moses 7: 34, 43, 50-52; 8: 17, 30). The waters of the flood were upon the earth, Gen. 7: 10. God set a bow in the cloud as a token of the covenant, Gen. 9: 9-17. After the waters had receded, the land of America became a choice land, Ether 13: 2. The wicked shall perish in the flood, Moses 7: 38; 8: 24. ( Guide to the Scriptures: Flood At Noah’s Time )

The scriptures, indeed, make a great case for a global flood.

And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. (See Genesis 7)

Incidentally, the earth will also be cleansed by fire in conjunction with the second coming of Christ and in preparation for her receiving her paradisiacal glory. (See Guide to the Scriptures: Second Coming of Jesus Christ)

Regards,

Vanhin

[Hemidakota]

What we need to be reminded as LDS, in many respects the voyage of the Jaredites to the Americas resembled the experience pf Noah in the Ark. Each voyage lasted about a year. In each case, the people had to build their own ship or ships. Animals and birds were involved, together with the all the problems of providing for their care over many months. Each case, the Lord provided lighted crystals to help light up the holes of the ships.

Elder Mark E. Peterson, wrote this in his book called the ‘Jaredites.’

As only a miracle made Noah's accomplishment possible, so it was with the Jaredites. The Lord gave similar attention to both. He had his own special purposes in each undertaking, and he assured their certain success.

The brother of Jared brought his luminous stones down from the mountain and placed one in each end of all eight barges. Then there was light.

"And it came to pass that when they had prepared all manner of food, that thereby they might subsist upon the water, and also food for their flocks and herds, and whatsoever beast or animal or fowl that they should carry with them—and it came to pass that when they had done all these things they got aboard of their vessels or barges, and set forth into the sea, commending themselves unto the Lord their God." (Ether 6:4.)

It is not certain how many people actually made this journey. The record says that Jared had four sons. The brother of Jared had both sons and daughters, but the number is not mentioned. "And the friends of Jared and his brother were in number about twenty and two souls; and they also begat sons and daughters before they came to the promised land." (Ether 6:16.) So no definite number was mentioned.

The ships apparently were somewhat like submarines, for they could travel both on the surface of the sea and beneath it. They were not self-propelled, but were totally dependent on divine power to make the journey.

The Lord "caused that there should be a furious wind blow upon the face of the waters, towards the promised land; and thus they were tossed upon the waves of the sea before the wind.

"And it came to pass that they were many times buried in the depths of the sea, because of the mountain waves which broke upon them, and also the great and terrible tempests which were caused by the fierceness of the wind.

"And it came to pass that when they were buried in the deep there was no water that could hurt them, their vessels being tight like unto a dish, and also they were tight like unto the ark of Noah; therefore when they were encompassed about by many waters they did cry unto the Lord, and he did bring them forth again upon the top of the waters.

"And it came to pass that the wind did never cease to blow towards the promised land while they were upon the waters; and thus they were driven forth before the wind. . . . And no monster of the sea could break them, neither whale that could mar them; and they did have light continually, whether it was above the water or under the water."

Knowing that they must rely entirely on the Lord, not only to reach the Promised Land but also to preserve their lives, the people were humble and devoted. "They did sing praises unto the Lord; yea, the brother of Jared did sing praises unto the Lord, and he did thank and praise the Lord all the day long; and when the night came, they did not cease to praise the Lord."

The sea voyage lasted for 344 days, and at last they landed on the shore of the promised land. "When they had set their feet upon the shores of the promised land they bowed themselves down upon the face of the land, and did humble themselves before the Lord, and did shed tears of joy before the Lord, because of the multitude of his tender mercies over them."

Since they had brought seeds of various kinds as well as some animals, the people began to establish farms at once.

Sincerely grateful for their safe passage to America, they worshipped the Lord with great devotion, "and they were taught to walk humbly before the Lord." Since the brother of Jared had such a close relationship with God, it is not surprising that the record adds, "And they were also taught from on high. And it came to pass that they began to spread upon the face of the land, and to multiply and to till the earth; and they did wax strong in the land."

[HiJolly]

The scriptures, indeed, make a great case for a global flood.

I agree, they do -- especially if you are LDS. (Which I am)

Incidentally, the earth will also be cleansed by fire in conjunction with the second coming of Christ and in preparation for her receiving her paradisiacal glory. (See Guide to the Scriptures: Second Coming of Jesus Christ)

Regards,

Vanhin

I am happy to agree with you on this.

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

I read in the October 2002 (?) issue of Discover Magazine (I'm fuzzy on the date, but I"m sure it was around then) about the moon and some comparisons between the geological structure of the moon and the earth. One of the things they pointed out was that the rocks on earth contain a certain amount of water. In fact, it was estimated, that if all of the water in those rocks could be drawn out, it would be enough water to fill the oceans six over. That's a lot of water! and I suppose one possible interpretation of the 'fountains of the great deep' (see below).

Disclaimer: I do not endorse this interpretation. Just food for thought.

Ok! That was quite interesting....

I was very impressed at a Sperry Symposium when a speaker regarding this subject remarked; “…we really don’t have the complete narrative details on what transpired before, during, and post deluge. Many attempts have been made to find other references of the Great Deluge to add further clarity to what geological events were enforced during this time period….”

I do note, even Hugh B. Nibley searched for years on this very topic. Two items that I found in his talks or articles, there was a great freeze at the end of Noah’s journey and something to the effect the location of building the ark was the Carolinas. My quest in forming my own testimony of this great debate years ago, was to answer a question from another church, what happened to the fresh water fish? After exhausting 18-months of research and prayer, I finally could go to the individual and answer that question. Even I was exceedingly surprised.

[deblldo]

Where does the Bible say the flood was "global"?

Hi,

in genesis 6:13 God say's "The end of ALL flesh has come before me, for the EARTH is filled with violence them; and behold, I will destroy them WITH THE EARTH."

also again in verse 17, and chapter 7 verse's 3,4,6,10,12,17,18,19.

Also some more in chapter 8 but i think you get the idea.

deb.

[Hemidakota]

Remember, the term Earth may mean the area in which Noah was living. The biggest offense to GOD, as it was with Nimrod, the people collectivily lived in the same area and did not go forth and filled the Earth as commanded to Adam and Eve.

[Guest bren1975]

I watched a Discovery channel program about whether the Biblical account really occurred. They made a pretty compelling case that Noah could not have built the Ark nor could there have been a worldwide flood. There isn't and geological evidence to support the story of the worldwide flood. So, is the account literal or perhaps a retelling of a Babylonian disaster that has been recorded in the Epic of Gilgamesh and other epics?

Count me with the believers. If ever science and the scritures seem to conflict, then I believe that the science is faulty somehow. Call me naive, but no matter.

Possibly there's no geographical evidence because they are looking for it in the wrong point in history. Things didn't always progress as slowly as they do now. The scriptures mention whole continents moving in one man's lifetime. So at times, geographical changes happened more rapidly than at other times.

Since the flood was a physical baptism of the earth, everything--with the exception of the ark--was washed away. Everything we have now, meaning all fossils, are post-flood. This includes dinosaurs. So if the scientists looked for the flood at the beginning of the fossil record, they might find it.

Anyway, the scriptures are true. They always have been.

[Vanhin]

Remember, the term Earth may mean the area in which Noah was living. The biggest offense to GOD, as it was with Nimrod, the people collectivily lived in the same area and did not go forth and filled the Earth as commanded to Adam and Eve.

Well sure. Just like the term heavens does not always mean spiritual abode of God or spirits. Sometimes it means the skies, or everything outside our local earth. That's why I prefer this passage (and the surrounding passages):

And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. (Genesis 7)

This makes it clear that "all the high hills...under the whole heaven, were covered". I guess the only other interpretation would be that all the high hills in all the universe were covered, but that would be rediculous. :) So, it must mean that our local earth was completely covered.

Regards,

Vanhin

[bytor2112]

It doesn't really matter to me either way. Global flood or localized, do we even know how many people existed during this time or where they existed at? The program made some pretty strong statements regarding the impossibility of building the ark as well. They claimed it could not have stayed a float without a metal skeletel structure....and that Noah couldn't possibly have loaded all creatures on the Ark. They read some scriptures from Leviticus regarding the probable types of animals that Noah loaded on to the ARk.

[richlittell]

I would tend to go with global, as a baptism of the earth, but it's truly not relevant to our salvation.

What is relevant to our salvation is how much we decide to "pick and choose" which part of the scripture we choose to interpret as literal and figurative.

When we start picking apart the scriptures, we may very well choose to discard something that was truly literal, and we may unwittingly get caught in that little thread of web that the adversary so silently weaves.

Is the Adam and Eve story true? Did Jonah really get swallowed by a whale? Did Daniel really survive the lion's den?. Is the earth really only 6000 years old? What about evolution, and dinosaur bones?

Here's my take, I'll stand before the Lord taking everything literal until we have direct revelation otherwise.

I don't discard scientific evidence such as that of dinosaur bones, but I believe in the creation as literal and know that in the millennium or one of the eternal kingdoms I can figure out how science and scripture all come together as a whole. Inactivity or even apostasy is never an overnight thing and the more doubts we place on the scriptures the more dangerous things become.

Nevertheless, I have an inquisitive mind and search out many non-spiritual things and think they are exciting to learn, but please, my fellow saints, don't go wresting the scriptures needlessly.

And besides, when we start saying one miracle sounds plausible while others are probably impossible, do we not undermine the capability of our Creator? I wouldn't want to stand before him in that last day and say, "You know, there are just some things you could not possibly have done."

Edited August 25, 2008 by richlittell

[Hemidakota]

Well sure. Just like the term heavens does not always mean spiritual abode of God or spirits. Sometimes it means the skies, or everything outside our local earth. That's why I prefer this passage (and the surrounding passages):

And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. (Genesis 7)

This makes it clear that "all the high hills...under the whole heaven, were covered". I guess the only other interpretation would be that all the high hills in all the universe were covered, but that would be rediculous. :) So, it must mean that our local earth was completely covered.

Regards,

Vanhin

It depends on the author and who is speaking. We need to ensure that we place ourselves in their shoes to complete our understanding on what is being painted by words of the recorder. Even if we compared the writings at the time of the Savior death, the Nephites used the same expression on what transpired to the the earth. What happened n the Americas did not happen in the land of Israel or Rome; noting past historical records.

Vanhin, I am in agreement that the Earth was covered over and through gelogical events, the earth was again transformed during and after the great deluge.

[Hemidakota]

I would tend to go with global, as a baptism of the earth, but it's truly not relevant to our salvation.

What is relevant to our salvation is how much we decide to "pick and choose" which part of the scripture we choose to interpret as literal and figurative.

When we start picking apart the scriptures, we may very well choose to discard something that was truly literal, and we may unwittingly get caught in that little thread of web that the adversary so silently weaves.

Is the Adam and Eve story true? Did Jonah really get swallowed by a whale? Did Daniel really survive the lion's den?. Is the earth really only 6000 years old? What about evolution, and dinosaur bones?

Here's my take, I'll stand before the Lord taking everything literal until we have direct revelation otherwise.

I don't discard scientific evidence such as that of dinosaur bones, but I believe in the creation as literal and know that in the millennium or one of the eternal kingdoms I can figure out how science and scripture all come together as a whole. Inactivity or even apostasy is never an overnight thing and the more doubts we place on the scriptures the more dangerous things become.

Nevertheless, I have an inquisitive mind and search out many non-spiritual things and think they are exciting to learn, but please, my fellow saints, don't go wresting the scriptures needlessly.

And besides, when we start saying one miracle sounds plausible while others are probably impossible, do we not undermine the capability of our Creator? I wouldn't want to stand before him in that last day and say, "You know, there are just some things you could not possibly have done."

Would all the earths require the same baptismal act? Do those of the lesser glory - namely the Telestial and Terrestial require to be baptized in order to receive that state of glory?

[Hemidakota]

I don’t think God only works through “natural” means… or at least what we consider to be “natural”. Not that He is a “God of the gaps” but there is no need to try and explain everything away to verify it…

Since all intelligence honor HIM and this gives GOD HIS power, anything that is requested, including bringing water to this earth will not be a problem.

Edited August 25, 2008 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

It doesn't really matter to me either way. Global flood or localized, do we even know how many people existed during this time or where they existed at? The program made some pretty strong statements regarding the impossibility of building the ark as well. They claimed it could not have stayed a float without a metal skeletel structure....and that Noah couldn't possibly have loaded all creatures on the Ark. They read some scriptures from Leviticus regarding the probable types of animals that Noah loaded on to the ARk.

The Naval Research Center applied the Ark model both computer simulation and a scaled down model and it works. It was on the History Channel last year. If any animals were loaded into the ark, I would venture to say, first they came to him and they were more of the order of domestic local animals. What happened after with cross breeding and repopulating the world, we still don't have any additional records at this time. We simply don't know beyond that the people of Jared were not the only people that was commanded for other portion of this earth. I would say, when the sealed portion of the plates are revealed, we will get our answers.

Now, have you been to the La Brea Tar pits in seeing what was yielded? This is located in the Los Angeles basin. You will be surprised. Even in the Florida keys, they found Elephant remains. Strange to be in the Americas. LOL

[Traveler]

Thought I would put forth some thoughts.

I do not know what happened. I think it is possible that “world” has both intent and extent in meaning throughout the scriptures. I am not sure that “world” means the same to us as it did the ancients. And so we introduce a new word, global. This is a new term that was not used by the ancients. I am not sure it is wise to introduce new words and then say that the concepts are the same.

One thing I find most interesting. If Noah were to just takes samples of each species of worms known to modern man; that the Ark as described in scripture would not be big enough to accommodate all the worms. I think it is rather curious to believe in a “global flood” and that the account of the Ark is in every way complete and then to not believe in evolution – which would be the only way I know of to account for all the species currently alive. But then religious belief – does not require reasonable intelligence or thought.

I also find it most interesting that some claim there is no proof of the migrations described in the Book of Mormon to account for the ancients in America and then in the next breath say there was a flood at the time of Noah that destroyed all mankind except for Noah and his sons and their wives. The arguments against the Book of Mormon also disprove the Bible. I would think Christians that believe the Bible would not use such arguments.

The Traveler

[Abraham]

Scientists debate evolution also, and they are the same ones who say that since the dawn of time, there has never, never, been two snowflakes exactly alike. How hard is it to make two snowflake crystals exactly alike when compared to the double helix DNA molecule, not to mention the other miracles of life (See Alma "all thing denote there is a God") Alma 30:44. It was Reagan who said that he wanted to throw a huge banquet dinner, catered, etc, and invite atheists, then at the end of the meal ask, "Do you believe there was a chef?" Now what does that have to do with the flood. You can't always believe the Scientists especially when they contradict the scriptures Remember, the earth had to be baptized by water and is fulfilling the measure of its creation.

Here is the other side. How many survived the flood? Not eight. Did you know that the righteous in the days of Noah were translated before the flood. I know I have mentioned this before, but they exist with their physical bodies in the terrestrial paradigm, and there are many there. It was a common thing to be translated 'back in the day". The PH line had to come through Noah so he and his family had to stay behind. (See Alma 9:21 & Heb 11:5)

Don't believe everything that is so-called documented on the Discovery channel, they have much truth but not the whole truth. I am sure they discredit the resurrection also!

Abraham

[Moksha]

Both the Biblical flood and its predecessor in epic of Gilgamesh have symbolic truths that can be gathered from these allegories. For instance, you should prepare for a rainy day and let a smile be your umbrella.

[deblldo]

Remember, the term Earth may mean the area in which Noah was living. The biggest offense to GOD, as it was with Nimrod, the people collectivily lived in the same area and did not go forth and filled the Earth as commanded to Adam and Eve.

Hi,

quite true which is why a little research is necessary. I checked it out in a strongs concordance. There are actually two words used for the word earth in genesis 6, the one used the most seems to indicate "the WHOLE earth".

deb.