Is it possible not to judge thy neighbor or thyself

[rameumptom]

I agree with Elphaba on being careful not to give advice where none is requested. Still, I think we often enjoy wallowing in the mire, rather than seeking the help needed to be pulled out of it. And this seems to be especially true of women (I know, I know, it reeks of sexism). They seek to vent, but are often not interested in solutions, while men are apt to talk to other men to get advice on how to handle a situation. It's genetics folks.

I find it incredible how we (and that includes me on occasion) will burn up tons of energy and time fretting over something where there actually is a solution. But we don't seek to use the solution, I suppose because we enjoy being the victim/martyr, or want the attention, or enjoy suffering.

Interestingly, the scriptures also tell us this. We are told that Christ can save us, as with Moses' brazen serpent, all we have to do is look to him to be healed. But many perish, because the solution is too easy, and they will not look.

Or the story of Naaman, who almost remained a leper, because he was insulted by the prophet of God and thought it beneath him to wash in the muddy waters of the Jordan.

So, while we need to be careful on judging others, perhaps we need to spend some time judging ourselves, to see just how we are using the advice and counsel given us.

********** ARRRR!!!!! It is International Speak Like a Pirate Day! ARRRRRRRR!!!!!!!! ********************

[Prodigal_Son]

Still, I think we often enjoy wallowing in the mire, rather than seeking the help needed to be pulled out of it...

...we don't seek to use the solution, I suppose because we enjoy being the victim/martyr, or want the attention, or enjoy suffering.

Spot on! I see this all the time. You know: those folks who you don't dare ask "how's it going"... It's in my family like the plague. I'm certainly not guiltless here, but I've had to work on it for years to break out of this cycle.

I mean, seriously: who on earth is attracted to a whiner? ESPECIALLY a perpetual one?

[Dove]

I agree with Elphaba on being careful not to give advice where none is requested. Still, I think we often enjoy wallowing in the mire, rather than seeking the help needed to be pulled out of it. And this seems to be especially true of women (I know, I know, it reeks of sexism). They seek to vent, but are often not interested in solutions, while men are apt to talk to other men to get advice on how to handle a situation. It's genetics folks.

Boooo! Boooo! Hissss! Hissss!

Yes, that is a very sexist statement.

Women simply have a different way of resolving their problems~they go to their friends to -vent- as you say, and as a way of resolving it themselves. They go to their friends for support, and not for their friends to give them the soloution.

You don't know how many times I've talked to men in many different capacities (husband, bishop, etc.) and they will jump in and tell me how they think I "should or ought to" solve my problem at the time. One man brought me to tears, because I was already upset, and he was so stubborn about proving his point to me, I cried. While what he said may have been true (and I did acknowledge that to him), all I needed was a kind listening ear for awhile while I worked it out.

In contrast, there have been numerous times when I have talked to one of my sisters, and they are right there with a listening ear and supportive feedback. Eventually they give their advice on how they would deal with whatever my problem is at the time. I listen to them, even when I disagree, because my need for their support has been given.

Please don't assume that just because women -vent- their problems to each other, that is means they aren't looking for solutions. I believe they just go about it in a different way then men.

[Vort]

Thanks for the insight, Dove.

[WANDERER]

As a women I tend to think of it as enabling...good leaders enable and empower others to solve problems. My male boss, who is very traditional, says do this and afterwards says *now you don't have to worry about it anymore...problem solved...he's also army LOL*. My female bosses, who are also pretty traditional, say, *don't worry about it, you just have to do this*. My male best-friend who isn't very traditional says, *vent away* vents with me, suggests crazy solutions that will make me laugh (you know how not to solve it) ...narrates similar problems (advice is always subjective to experience and success stories are always good to share) and just says great solution when it's no longer a problem. My female friends who are non-traditional do the same.

I often think the difference is that traditional men and women won't talk about their problems until they have distanced themselves enough emotionally from the problem to talk about it. They dispense advice in the same way, assuming you're already in that headspace. Flight/fight reactive/proactive response...some are still in flight LOL.

But yeah, giving advice to someone is in a current state of self-nominated time-out...

Edited September 20, 2008 by WANDERER

[Tough Grits]

How many times do we look at others and say, "I can't believe they did that" and then when we find ourselves doing something similar are much more gracious with ourselves? We are great at rationalizing our own behaviors and condemning others (IMO).

I have been thinking about this alot lately.

It reminds me of a hymn...

273

Truth Reflects upon Our Senses

Thoughtfully

31243, Hymns, Truth Reflects upon Our Senses, no. 273

1. Truth reflects upon our senses;

Gospel light reveals to some.

If there still should be offenses,

Woe to them by whom they come!

Judge not, that ye be not judged,

Was the counsel Jesus gave;

Measure given, large or grudged,

Just the same you must receive.

[Chorus]

Blessed Savior, thou wilt guide us,

Till we reach that blissful shore

Where the angels wait to join us

In thy praise forevermore.

2. Jesus said, “Be meek and lowly,”

For ’tis high to be a judge;

If I would be pure and holy,

I must love without a grudge.

It requires a constant labor

All his precepts to obey.

If I truly love my neighbor,

I am in the narrow way.

3. Once I said unto another,

“In thine eye there is a mote;

If thou art a friend, a brother,

Hold, and let me pull it out.”

But I could not see it fairly,

For my sight was very dim.

When I came to search more clearly,

In mine eye there was a beam.

4. If I love my brother dearer,

And his mote I would erase,

Then the light should shine the clearer,

For the eye’s a tender place.

Others I have oft reproved

For an object like a mote;

Now I wish this beam removed;

Oh, that tears would wash it out!

5. Charity and love are healing;

These will give the clearest sight;

When I saw my brother’s failing,

I was not exactly right.

Now I’ll take no further trouble;

Jesus’ love is all my theme;

Little motes are but a bubble

When I think upon the beam.

Text: Eliza R. Snow, 1807–1887; chorus by M. E. Abbey

Music: Charles Davis Tillman, 1861–1943

Matthew 7:1–5

Alma 41:14–15

There is a woman at work. For two years she has been cruel and hateful to me in word and deed.

I finally just reached the point where my dislike for her was so intense that I had to just pretend like the woman did not even exist. I made sure that I never looked her way or acknowledged her. I was determined that she was no longer going to even have the chance to hurt me.

But something weird has happened...since school has started she has been different. She has actually been trying to catch my eye, and when she does she actually smiles at me. Not fake or contrived, but a genuine, friendly smile.

I was confused by her sudden change, but I was determined to hold to my grudge and I was determined to ignore her.

And then it hit me...how many times had I made a mistake, trespassed against another, or been mean (like during my 2 postpartum depressions and my depression of the past 3 years), but then realized my error and pleaded, craved for the person to forgive, to let go of my trespass, and to just wipe the slate clean?

And yet here I was refusing to wipe the slate clean for this woman.

For whatever reason, she has sunshine in her soul now. I have had to ask myself, who am I to try to bring dark clouds back over her head?

I took the first step and smiled at her today. It actually felt nice. It is not easy, but I have decided to let go of the past two years, and I have decided to wipe the slate clean.

Maybe, just maybe, somebody that I have hurt or offended will now wipe the slate clean for me...

~TG

Edited September 20, 2008 by Tough Grits

[Prodigal_Son]

I took the first step and smiled at her today. It actually felt nice. It is not easy, but I have decided to let go of the past two years, and I have decided to wipe the slate clean.

Maybe, just maybe, somebody that I have hurt or offended will now wipe the slate clean for me...

~TG

That's awesome and inspiring. If we all could do this we'd live in a pretty sweet world...

[Dove]

Hello, MissHW~

Thank you for bringing out that rather than judging, loving is so important. It is the greatest commandment.

I feel I have understood your message in this thread. I believe what you're saying is to not judge other people in a demeaning, putting them down and making them feel less than way. My question then, is, if loving is the ultimate power, how do we go about loving other's in such a way that they will understand and feel loved by us? I mean this in all sincerity. For instance, I love my nephews dearly, but communicating this to them in a manner they understand and feel uplifted by is like speaking in a foreign language for me at times.

This is an open question. I would love to hear everyone's response and ideas on this.

Dove

To answer my own question, I have found a great book titled, "How to win friends and influence people." We are reading it at work. I told my supervisor today that it should be titled, "How to acknowledge and love others."

I would recommend this book to anyone interested in showing love to other people. It has such sound, psychological advice that makes a lot of sense. I have learned so much from reading it.

[Traveler]

Do you all think it is possible NOT to judge all the events and choices and happenings of our lives and relationships?

Have you ever stopped to think that you don't have to make a judgment? And I am talking about the ones we know we are making and the ones we don't.

Why do we have to decide the "goodness" or "badness", or "rightness" or "wrongness" of any given act or person?

And when we do engage in all of this evaluating, what is it then that seduces us into believing that we are right???

Judging then leads us to having to do something about it. We judge it and then we apply all sorts of stuff like guilt and shame. We judge ourselves harshly and others harshly and go around laying out guilt trips and doing annoying things like apologizing for everything!

Been reading this book -- "Learning to Love" by Don and Martha Rosenthal. It is a relationship book that is now at top of my all time favorites list.

In the end of the book, they talk about the difference between being a "judge" and a "witness" with regards to others and the events of our relationships.

I am thinking a lot about how much loving I am when I simple witness the actions of others and myself. I can just observe that Jeb and Marva didn't make it to church again. I don't have to anaylize "why not". I can see myself make a mistake and understand better why I did without all the burden of having to judge.

I sometimes think that we apply things in scripture incorrectly. Not judging is in my mind one of the biggest misconceptions of scripture. I think this is because we try to translate something from another time, culture and language to fit our current thinking.

I believe that the scripture intends to warn us against condemnation rather than judgment. I have believed that G-d judges us but he does not condemn us. I also believe that we should respect and honor good judgments in others as well as not honoring bad judgments.

Even the woman caught in adultery – Jesus made a judgment and then clearly stated that he did not condemn her. He also counseled her not to do it any more – ever.

So I say – Judge everything all you want. There is not problem in judgment – just do not ever condemn anybody, especially those close to you; like your spouse, your friends and yourself.

The Traveler