I like to know

[Winnie G]

What is the rate of divorce in young people married in the church, Under 21

I ask because my daughter fallowed that encouragement and is now she is young and a single mother with little education.

I like to punch her YW leader for such a shove towards marrying young,

Unlike my daughters YW leader I shoved collage before marriage and it worked for my YW I lead, I think the church needs to re- educate the old mind set. I know Im not to happy raiseing and paying for another family at 50.

[Guest SisterofJared]

I think it's very subjective depending on who the person is.... I have some that married young quite successfuly, some that married young not so successfully. I don't think a church leader should be pushing them to get married, period. This is too personal of a decision to be guided by a YW leader or YM leader at all.... maybe a bishop might have some guidance imput if ASKED, but other than that, not.

It scares you to death when you see your child getting married when you know they are too young. All you can do is love them and support them the best you can, because if you fight it you will put a wedge between you, and that is the last thing they need then.

As for her being a single mom, remember that your daughter will grow from the struggles she has, and there is no doubt that the day will come when she looks back with no regret and is able to see the good that comes from the hardship. As a parent, you want to keep them from all that, but this journey is her journey, and her growth, and you should rest confident that Father is aware of her, and that His goal is not for today but for tomorrow. He knows the big picture.

That said, I do greatly sympathize with you not being happy to be raising and paying for another family at 50. You do it because you love them. But I'm in my 50s myself, and I know energy is not so high, and by the time you're 50 you generally start to crave some order and quiet and a little more freedom. You've made the sacrifices required for your family as you raised them, now it's time to relax and feel some extra peace. That doesn't happen with little kids around, even cute little kids. It stinks that you aren't able to get that. I see my friends going through this all the time. Their kids and grandkids are with them, it's money, it's drugs, it's divorce, it's whatever. It stinks when you're ready for the chance to just finally relax and have a little "self" time. After all, your whole life you've been told to leave time for yourself, and you never could. When they're grown, you should FINALLY be able to have some self time!

Undoubtedly you will grow from the whole experience, too. Problem is, sometimes we don't want to grow, we just want to relax for a while. I can understand how you feel about raising another family because when I get the grandkids for a day or two, I'm exhausted. You have to be a giant of a person, winnie, to take on such a burden. Love them or not, full time kids in your home when you're in your 50s is a big deal. Father must have total confidence in you, and I know your daughter will come to a day when she will understand fully what you are doing for her and her child, and she will be everlastingly grateful. You are making a huge difference to her and her grandchild.

Sorry this is long. I want you to know that I understand and comisserate! And that what you are doing is a huge, wonderful thing that will make a difference to your daughter and grandchild forever.

Sister of Jared.

[BenRaines]

I was 21 and my wife was 18 1/2. Soon 33 years. That was then, this is now. Rules are the same. Peoples level of commitment isn't.

[Palerider]

One of my daughters married right out of high school and she was 18yrs old. They have been married for 6yrs and just last year she completed her degree and just got her first teaching job. I don't feel anyone pushed her into getting married.

[Guest SisterofJared]

One of my girls married at 18, my son married at 20. My daughter has been married for 17 years. My son divorced in 3.

I married at 19, been married 36 years.

Certainly there is a culture of "marry young" at BYU. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. I understand winnie's frustration with the situation. I encouraged my son to marry in the temple, and frankly wished I hadn't. He made covenants he wasn't ready to keep, and today thinks the Lord just let him out of them because he doesn't have a testimony. He didn't know what he was doing. All I can do is pray for him.

Best to let the kids mature at their own rate. But wise counsel from people who love them can be a blessing. Counsel yes, pushing no. Guiding extremely carefully!

Sister of Jared

[Winnie G]

I had it out with a stake YW president when I was a leader, I sent her on to my bishop because I refused to hang this set of goals in my YW class room. The first goal was finish high school and second and last was prepare for the temple and family.

I told her no finish collage then marriage in the temple. We locked horns and I sent her on to my bishop (collage then marriage in the temple) his rules.

I still think the young women’s program needs work with much more emphases on higher learning before marriage.

my daughter now need to learn to drive higher learning a part time job because there are four grandchildren under the age of five now until she finishes school all of witch we will foot the bill for. My two bedroom house will be built on too ASAP and turn in to a daycare center.

I like however to send a letter to her YW leader thanking her for filling my daughters head with happily ever after stories. Like the temple will take you though every thing.

That old drum needs to silenced.

[pushka]

Hi Winnie, I just want to say how pleased I am to see you on the site again!!

I would imagine there would be a push towards marrying quickly in a religion which stresses the 'no sex before marriage' so firmly..

I would hope that my own kids would be sensible about their future, career and marriage wise...

[checkerboy]

I have to totally disagree with the tone on this thread. Once you have kids who says you are ever entitled to "self" time? You made the decision to have kids, no one forced you to. Now you pay the price that comes with that. If your kids make bad choices at what ever age they may be you have to deal with that.

Also if you believe someone is pushing your kids to marry young I don't think you understand the concept of agency. No one can make you do anything. And if you believe that your kid is turning to someone for advice that you don't like maybe you haven't taught them well enough who they really should be turning to for inpiration in life changing matters. Let's not blame the church for our problems. In my opinion age makes very little difference in the success of a marriage. It is maturity that matters and people muture at different ages. True more life experience does help the maturity process but that life experience can come anytime, even after marrying.

As for whether or not a woman goes to college before getting married I would say that is up to that woman not the church, or not even her own parents. We have got to let our children make their own decisions and then live with the consequences of those decisions. If we haven't taught them this when they are young then we have failed in our duty and should prepare for them to make horrible decisions in the future and expect us to bail them out.

Thank you and goodnight.

[hordak]

What is the rate of divorce in young people married in the church, Under 21

I ask because my daughter fallowed that encouragement and is now she is young and a single mother with little education.

I like to punch her YW leader for such a shove towards marrying young,

Unlike my daughters YW leader I shoved collage before marriage and it worked for my YW I lead, I think the church needs to re- educate the old mind set. I know Im not to happy raiseing and paying for another family at 50.

Actually with the church encouraging all able men to go on missions and women to marry members there should be too many married couples under 21.(Unless they marry older men) Most the young couples i know the women went to collage while waiting for the missionaries to return and its the guys who have to play "catch up" on education.

I guess it depends on the ward.

[codyn]

I was married at 21 and my wife was 20 and were doing just fine. (year and a half now) It all depends on the person I think.

[lchri134]

I totally agree with Winnie, i really think there is a big pressure to get married at a young age in the church. I just turned twenty and i really feel like a lot of people look at me like oh... not married yet...

i think it is so important to get your education and now who and what you are marrying before you are

just shoved into because you don't want people to look at you as an old maid. i was also just released from a calling in young womens, i really saw all the lessons from these older ladies saying how great it was to be married before they were twenty. i am not saying that its never right to marry young, i just don't think its right to put that kind of pressure on the youth to get married asap, and then feel like a failure when you don't!

[Misshalfway]

I have to totally disagree with the tone on this thread. Once you have kids who says you are ever entitled to "self" time? You made the decision to have kids, no one forced you to. Now you pay the price that comes with that. If your kids make bad choices at what ever age they may be you have to deal with that.

Also if you believe someone is pushing your kids to marry young I don't think you understand the concept of agency. No one can make you do anything. And if you believe that your kid is turning to someone for advice that you don't like maybe you haven't taught them well enough who they really should be turning to for inpiration in life changing matters. Let's not blame the church for our problems. In my opinion age makes very little difference in the success of a marriage. It is maturity that matters and people muture at different ages. True more life experience does help the maturity process but that life experience can come anytime, even after marrying.

As for whether or not a woman goes to college before getting married I would say that is up to that woman not the church, or not even her own parents. We have got to let our children make their own decisions and then live with the consequences of those decisions. If we haven't taught them this when they are young then we have failed in our duty and should prepare for them to make horrible decisions in the future and expect us to bail them out.

Thank you and goodnight.

You are welcome and good morning!

I think there is some real truth here. Thanks Check.

But I will say from personal experience in the church that I was taught more about getting married than I was about "how" to find the right marriage partner.

As I got older, the pressure to marry in the LDS culture (I was raised in Utah and attended BYU) was rather intense. I didn't marry until I was 27 and every voice in the world was "he'll come, honey" or I was constantly pitied or set up on blind dates -- which gentlemen btw, were always short. Hmmmm.......Why do set up a short boy with a taller girl??? Mystery!! lol. Anyway, one woman even said to me, "what's wrong with you?"

I think the church and its leaders have learned a thing or two since I was a girl. I hear more now the phrase "marry the right person, in the right place, at the right time." This implies to me that each person is on their own journey and individual timeline and Father is intimately connected to all of us. We must teach our children to understand that diversity and learn to trust Father and the Spirit and ourselves! so we empower them to make the best choices......and I mean the ones before AND after mistakes. Mistakes are part of the deal too. And have real value in the whole scheme of things......even if they hurt sometimes. :)

[Vort]

What is the rate of divorce in young people married in the church, Under 21

I ask because my daughter fallowed that encouragement and is now she is young and a single mother with little education.

I like to punch her YW leader for such a shove towards marrying young,

Unlike my daughters YW leader I shoved collage before marriage and it worked for my YW I lead, I think the church needs to re- educate the old mind set. I know Im not to happy raiseing and paying for another family at 50.

I don't know the answer to your question. My wife married me when she was 20, and we are currently at 20 years and going strong.

[Vort]

I think the church and its leaders have learned a thing or two since I was a girl. I hear more now the phrase "marry the right person, in the right place, at the right time."

Not sure how old you are, MHW, but Elder McConkie was advising BYU students as early as 1973, perhaps earlier, that "the most important single thing that any Latter-day Saint ever does in this world is to marry the right person, in the right place, by the right authority" (see his famous speech titled Agency or Inspiration -- Which?). What our leaders teach and what we understand are often very different things.

[Misshalfway]

Not sure how old you are, MHW, but Elder McConkie was advising BYU students as early as 1973, perhaps earlier, that "the most important single thing that any Latter-day Saint ever does in this world is to marry the right person, in the right place, by the right authority" (see his famous speech titled Agency or Inspiration -- Which?). What our leaders teach and what we understand are often very different things.

.....could you grab me my cane?

[candyprpl]

Dear Winnie,

I do have empathy for your situation.

I'm fairly new to the Church and at first it bothered me that it seemed like young people were being pushed to marry so young -- then as I learned more I realized that LDS youth are not like the youth in the world. They are more prepared than those not in the Church. The overall counsel of the Church (and most posts here do bring up those teachings) do stress finding an eternal companion, and that doesn't mean, find one right now. I love John Bytheway and how he counsels YM and YW on the subject.

I hope I don't step on your toes here (honestly), but it seems your more upset about the impact on your life than the impact on your child. I have had similar difficulties with my adult children and at one point was directly responsible for my granddaughters. I know it's hard and it doesn't seem fair. Your daughter now needs to take responsibility for her choices. These were all her choices. The best help you can give her is to let her deal with these responsibilities on her own as much as possible. I have a niece who was married in the temple (young) and after 4 children, her husband had a serious drug problem, divorced. She went back to school and became a nurse and raised the 4 children alone. She did it without much help from my sister (her mother). She (my niece) will be the first to tell you, she has become a stronger person for doing this. She's now married to a wonderful LDS man and her oldest son has just finished a mission.

It is a difficult situation -- turn to the Lord for guidance -- He can and will make your burden light.:)

[hordak]

-- which gentlemen btw, were always short. Hmmmm.......Why do set up a short boy with a taller girl???

why do women wear shoes that make them stand 4 to 6 inches taller and then complain about height?

[Vort]

why do women wear shoes that make them stand 4 to 6 inches taller and then complain about height?

A year or so ago in the middle of the week, I was at an area retail outlet and came face to face with a strikingly beautiful young woman. To say she stood out would be an understatement, since she was well over six feet tall. Though I have never been one to participate in "girl-watching" (never did that, even when single), and though I'm old and happily married, it occurred to me that if I were young and single, I would probably ask this girl out just as soon as I could. Tall women are Dang Sexy, and even moreso when they possess beauty of face and figure. I noticed her interacting with some young children who were there, and it appeared that she was as beautiful inside as outside. The complete package, indeed. I fleetingly thought it would be nice if she were ten or 15 years younger and available for my son.

Fast-forward to a Sunday some days or weeks later, when I was at our stake center while the singles' ward was meeting. There she was, same girl; obviously, she was a member of that ward. But she seemed much taller than I remembered. Turns out she was wearing heels four inches or more high, and she literally towered over everyone -- 6'6" at least, and I am not exaggerating. Talk about gilding the lily!

But to be fair, I don't know her, so I have no idea if she has ever complained about dating short men. That would seem futile for her, anyway, since most men would be short beside her.

[Vort]

why do women wear shoes that make them stand 4 to 6 inches taller and then complain about height?

Serious answer?

They wear high heels because it makes their legs look longer, slimmer, and more shapely. It also tends to make them tense up their leg muscles, making their buttocks look firmer. The extra height is simply an unintended, often (but not always) unwanted, side effect. Despite protestations about equality, fish, and bicycles, most women want their men to be taller, larger, and stronger than they are. For the high-heel gals, this means the man typically must be three or more inches taller.

Flippant answer?

Because it gives them something else to complain about regarding men, and we know that no woman is completely happy unless she can complain about men.

[Jenamarie]

I had it out with a stake YW president when I was a leader, I sent her on to my bishop because I refused to hang this set of goals in my YW class room. The first goal was finish high school and second and last was prepare for the temple and family.

But do those last two goals automatically exclude higher education? Preparing for the Temple is how you live your life, whatever you may be doing, and preparing for family can most certainly include continuing your education. At least that was the message I heard from church leaders (both local and General) about how to prepare to be a wife and mother. I heard many lessons that mentioned continuing your education so that you could pass on that knowledge to your future children, and also so that you'd be more prepared for whatever life threw at you (like divorce or being left a widow). And wasn't it Brigham Young that said "Educate a man, and you educate one person; educate a woman, and you educate a generation" or something to that effect.

[BenRaines]

I guess President Ezra Taft Benson didn't know what he was talking about when he encouraged the young women that when they left high school to continue to pursue an education. He did suggest fields that would be beneficial to being a mother, he didn't say which ones but teaching, nursing, accounting, business come to mind.

I believe that was in the early 1980's.

Our son has always been very obedient and done all the things asked of him. He was almost 25 when he married and she was almost 24. I guess they didn't listen to the YW teachers. I say that tongue in cheek because she wrote a great piece for my wife to use in YW about what great things her YW leaders taught her about being worthy and prepared to marry in the temple.

Each of us have our own agency to act as we wish. I have not witnessed church leaders telling anyone to marry at 17 or 18, to not get an education, to have four babies in five years. At least not where I live.

Oh daughter in law graduates in December 2008, eight months after getting married.

No babies on the way and no pressure from parents on either side for it to happen.

Ben Raines

[rockwoodchev]

Oh... I have a couple of mixed opinions about this.

For a long period of time, I used to think that YM and YW leaders had huge sway on the kids. I was in YM for a VERY long period and worked with the kids 2-3 hours, on average a week.

Then.. I taught early morning seminary and felt I had a huge sway on the kids. I work with the kids about 5 hours a week.

Then... I dealt with my own teenagers. I work with them about (on average) about 10 hours a week. So.. I get them 4 times as much as their YW leaders and 2 times the Seminary. Yeah.. I know these are very rough numbers, but they work for proving my point. :-)

I spend some portion of my 10 hours, removing what the YW leaders placed in there. I don't have to worry about what the Seminary teacher said, because that is me. In some cases, in Seminary, I refute, correct, and disagree with what they might have heard from YW and YM leaders.

However, when it comes down to it. The parents should have the lions share of the training opportunities of the youth. If they get some concept (early marriage) shoved down them, then I simply tell them on the drive home from church they they are free to ignore and completly forget that concept.

This happened for me this past week. For 6 years, my daughters have not gotten along with the 2 daughters from another family in the ward. We just got a new bishop and he sat them down and told them both to get over this and get along, and that they would probably be best of friends. Now I happen to know that my daughter is very sensitive to things like this, she is on depression medicine, and sees a therapist. This sort of advice from a Bishop, if allowed to fester in her heart, would tear down months of positive direction for her. I have no need to go the Bishop and teach him how to work with my daughter. I simply tell her to ignore that advice from him. He was off base and she has no need to feel guilty if she chooses not to follow that direction.

Simple. Deal with it by teaching her to not take her church leaders so serious. They will make mistakes and screw things up. Just let them (the leaders) make their mistakes and we just choose which words of council we choose to follow.

[funkymonkey]

I might be a little out there but I remember at the YW conference two years ago (I was serving in YW at the time)... Hinkley talked about these girls becoming self-sufficient. He encouraged continuing education / training.

It's interesting to me that church leaders will say one thing, but church culture may say something different.

I grew up inactive, but I did have a cousin that was active in the church who was just my age. My cousin seriously took pitty on me when I told her of my dreams for college. I remember going to church with her and the leaders and girls would just roll their eyes when they asked what my life plans were...not exactly a missionary moment. They later invited me (two different years) to go with them to try on wedding dresses for their mutual activities...WEDDING DRESSES. These girls were 16 years old.

Now, all grown up, I have a degree, and have married the love of my life. And my dear cousin forwent education, married at the same time I did, and is now a single mother who has to live with her parents. None of us honestly know how our cards are going to fall. We can do everything we know how to be "righteous followers of Christ" but we are not guaranteeing that bad things won't happen to us. I see no harm in preparing our young women to be independent.

Do people honestly think that just because a girl decides to go to school, that she is delaying or foregoing her opportunities to date and marry?

[Jenamarie]

I met my husband at college!

[Winnie G]

I hope I don't step on your toes here (honestly), but it seems your more upset about the impact on your life than the impact on your child.

No your not stepping on my toes, to tell the truth i love having my grandchildren fill the rafters in my home. It does put a hole in our pocketbook as well as our planes to go on a mission sooner rather then later.

But I rather have her home with us then unhappy some were else. Our granddaughters need a peaceful home then a fight ring.

I hope she will be older and wiser next time she decides to marry.

None answered my question about the % of age vs divorce.

Those kinds of mutual activities Funkymonkey wrote about is just what my daughters YW president did. There WRONG! How about checking out the local collage's??????

Edited October 1, 2008 by Winnie G
added on too