Works are NOT required for Salvation

[Jenamarie]

A sticking point I find some Christians present as their reason for disagreeing with the LDS church (among many) is how we believe works are required for Salvation.

The fact is that we DON'T.

Other Christian faiths teach that it is by Grace that we are Saved, and that our works only earn us greater Heavenly rewards.

The LDS church teaches the exact same thing.

Baptism, the Gift of the Holy Ghost, Temple Ordinances, and Proxy Temple Ordinances are not pulling us, or our ancestors, further away from the jaws of Hell. We are already safely out of their reach (unless we reject the Spirit). What they DO do is open the doors to greater Blessings in this life, and greater Rewards in the next, including the reward of Exaltation and Eternal Life with our Father in Heaven, and with our families.

An LDS person who isn't Sealed in the Temple isn't destined for Hell. Nor is someone who commits a crime. What they are putting at risk isn't their Salvation, but their Exaltation, which are two seperate things (Exaltation being the greatest of the Heavenly Rewards). They are not building up as many Treasures in Heaven as they might otherwise be.

But their works aren't Saving them from Hell. Our loving Savior has already done that miraculous piece of work.

[Guest tomk]

It is all about what we are choosing to BECOME. Our token obedience does not EARN His Grace. It is a gift. But it is needed in order to qualify for the gift. The reason our token obedience is required is because it is the only sure way for us to show God we want Him to work His miracle with us WITHOUT Him violating our agency. He will do nothing to sanctify us against our will. So we show our willingness to be changed by His Power ---- through our works. But the works themselves do not earn or mean we deserve ANYTHING....for the Grace that is extended is still a GIFT!

[Misshalfway]

The way I see "works" is that they are essential to our progression. The commandments point the direction to our goal and our obedience to those commandments helps us progress. The whole process is salvation and absolute grace is woven into and through the process.

The Atonement has done what we couldn't do. Our Father answers, supports, forgives, sanctifies all in grace. But we must act. We must obey and must be held accountable for the parts of this process that are our responsibility.

[bytor2112]

So true........and the understanding of language is essential. Immortality is the free gift that Christ's atonement provided for all mankind. Eternal life is exaltation and requires faithful adherence and repentance in order to obtain. It is really just a difference of degrees that seperate our understanding.

[goofball]

Salvation is much different than exaltation

[Jenamarie]

The way I see "works" is that they are essential to our progression. The commandments point the direction to our goal and our obedience to those commandments helps us progress. The whole process is salvation and absolute grace is woven into and through the process.

The Atonement has done what we couldn't do. Our Father answers, supports, forgives, sanctifies all in grace. But we must act. We must obey and must be held accountable for the parts of this process that are our responsibility.

Right. :) But we don't live in fear of not "doing enough" and ending up in Hell because we failed to do enough Works, like I've heard some Christians say is the way we must feel.

Salvation is being Saved from Hell. Exaltation is the greatest Heavenly Reward. Our Works move us along the path to that reward. But they don't save us from Hell.

[OtterPop]

Other Christian faiths teach that it is by Grace that we are Saved, and that our works only earn us greater Heavenly rewards.

I'm wondering if this is an accurate statement about traditional Christian beliefs. I grew up partly in the deep South (Alabama), and this is not generally what I heard Baptists say. I remember more a belief of either you're saved or you're not, and a rejection of the idea that there is such a thing as "greater Heavenly rewards."

I'd like to see some non-Mormons weigh in on this question, because I'm not well versed in this at all.

[Justice]

This is a much debated topic among most Christian churches.

We are saved by grace.

The confusion is in the understanding of "saved" and "grace."

Other churches get hung up on the fact that it's a free gift. In LDS doctrine grace has been defined (in the Bible dictionary, and by Elder Bednar) as an enabling power. When one receives grace they have a greater power to do; additional power to overcome that they would not have without the bestowal of grace. With this definition, it is grace that enables greater works than we are capable of doing on our own.

[Misshalfway]

Right. :) But we don't live in fear of not "doing enough" and ending up in Hell because we failed to do enough Works, like I've heard some Christians say is the way we must feel.

Salvation is being Saved from Hell. Exaltation is the greatest Heavenly Reward. Our Works move us along the path to that reward. But they don't save us from Hell.

I see what you are saying here. I just want to add that no one can be saved in ignorance and that there is a fear and should be a fear (the Godly sort) to keep us in remembrance of our duty. And for those with more knowledge (Spiritual revealed knowledge from God or opportunities to receive such) will be held to a different standard than those who never had a chance or ability to receive the knowledge.

And then of course, God being full of grace, gave us the spirit world in which we can "catch up" or fill in any missing parts we may have missed on earth and still have access to all the same blessings of all who are saved in the highest kingdom of God.

This is another reason why I love the LDS teachings. Because ALL of Father's children are saved in some way. All receive resurrection and will live again after death..... and only those who commit the unpardonable sin will not have access to some degree of salvation.

For the most part, the question of whether or not someone will be saved is rather mute. It is a question, rather, of degree.

[Justice]

OtterPop, there are other churches that believe we are saved by grace, and that grace is bestowed by God by His choice through no actions of our own. He chooses who will be saved and who won't be. Calvinism teaches this, for example. But, there are many different beliefs about grace out there... I've heard a bunch. I have heard the one Jenamarie wrote about, and I've heard the one you wrote about as well.

But, when you get right down to the nitty-gritty, we do believe works are required for eternal life. Ordinances are works, and so is faith, repentance, and following the spirit. So is comforting the widows, feeding the hungry, visiting those in prison... all things the Savior said those on His right hand would do. The parable of the Good Samaritan is as good of an example found anywhere in the scriptures. What we don't believe is that these works "earn us salvation." How they are required is that God will judge us by our works, and as you say, determine the quality of life we live in the spirit world.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm wondering if this is an accurate statement about traditional Christian beliefs. I grew up partly in the deep South (Alabama), and this is not generally what I heard Baptists say. I remember more a belief of either you're saved or you're not, and a rejection of the idea that there is such a thing as "greater Heavenly rewards."

I'd like to see some non-Mormons weigh in on this question, because I'm not well versed in this at all.

:::NON-MORMON, WEIGHING IN--RATHER HEFTLY, BTW...:::

The sticking point, as the OP suggests, is over what entails CONVERSION. Most evangelicals equate conversion with salvation. LDS tend to conflate "enduring to the end" with ultimate salvation--thus the emphasis on doing good works, obeying, observing the sacraments (Temple, etc.). Then, we evangelicals say, "Aha! You are working your way to heaven...how arrogant and wrong!"

As for Ottopop's question--there is a variety of opinions on the rewards of heaven. Some Baptists believe in "once saved always saved," and do view heaven as a classless society (if everyone is rich, then???). On the other hand, those from my tradition (emphasis on free will...or agency) take the passages that say things like "to whom much is given much is required" and parables like the Widow and her mite, to mean that our rewards, while all glorious, will vary. IMHO, the greater rewards will like translate as greater responsiblities in God's kingdom, rather than more luxurious living.

As I see it, LDS theology (from my evangelical perspective) is not as guilty of "works salvation" as we make it out to be. Nevertheless, the teaching in the Articles of Faith that we still must do all that we can for our salvation, and this natural tendency to conflate salvation with "enduring to the end" makes me uncomfortable, and is probably too much for Calvinists (who stress God's Sovereignity and our total inability to influence grace) to accept.

[tefor]

Stephen Robinson has said that part of the confusion is due to the way Paul used the terms "faith" and "works". His argument is as follows:

1. People today interpret "faith" as meaning "expression of belief" ONLY;

2. People interpret "works" as meaning anything that we do ourselves;

3. However, Paul meant faith in a broad sense (to include an expression of our good faith as manifested in our works), and works narrowly, to refer to the rituals of the Law of Moses.

4. It is therefore more accurate to say that we are saved by faith (the grace of God PLUS our works, however feeble the latter may be) rather than by rituals which in themselves have no saving power.

[OneEternalSonata]

Our works are the mite, and His Grace the King's ransom. That comparison sums it up for me.

[pam]

Our works are the mite, and His Grace the King's ransom. That comparison sums it up for me.

I like that.

[prisonchaplain]

Most Protestants balk at the idea that even a mite of our good works could have a part in our conversion. Rather our mite combined with God's power and direction would bring great results for the Kingdom, and serve as the fruit (or product) of our salvation. The insistence is that we have no part in our salvation, accept for saying, "Yes, I'll take it, and cast aside my wicked ways."

[OneEternalSonata]

Most Protestants balk at the idea that even a mite of our good works could have a part in our conversion. Rather our mite combined with God's power and direction would bring great results for the Kingdom, and serve as the fruit (or product) of our salvation. The insistence is that we have no part in our salvation, accept for saying, "Yes, I'll take it, and cast aside my wicked ways."

I realize this, as I was once Protestant. :) I view grace as something God gives freely, because without it no amount of works would or could suffice. However, to me, works are the choice to fall under His grace, as it were. There again, the Atonement and the grace wrought therein can be categorized into its unconditional and conditional attributes, according to my beliefs.

Edited September 26, 2008 by OneEternalSonata

[richlittell]

I'm wondering if this is an accurate statement about traditional Christian beliefs. I grew up partly in the deep South (Alabama), and this is not generally what I heard Baptists say. I remember more a belief of either you're saved or you're not, and a rejection of the idea that there is such a thing as "greater Heavenly rewards."

I'd like to see some non-Mormons weigh in on this question, because I'm not well versed in this at all.

I can say that this is an accurate statement for many churches, but maybe not all. I was raised Pentecostal till about the age of 10-12? and then a Southern Baptist. It is one of the reasons I investigated the LDS church because that doctrine made no since to me. I had been taught that once a person is "saved" (and nobody could really define that for me, it was just something you should "know") that no matter how many sins one committed one would still be saved in heaven (no degrees, all going to the same heaven, the "wicked saved" and the "righteous saved" alike). And the conundrum was that we were also taught that if we didn't change our ways, we'd go to hell--this was a constant challenge to our mindset of whether we were "really" saved or not. Most would say, in a fair enough argument, that if you continued in wicked ways, you weren't really "saved." Well enough; but according to the conduct of the congregations I was involved with, that pretty much ruled everyone out of the "saved" category save only a few.

However, if it hasn't been said already, I like this quote:

2 Ne. 25:23-24 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

The law of Moses was fulfilled in the law of Christ, so even though this scripture refers to the law of Moses, the need to do "all that we can do" applies equally to the law of Christ, which basically is fulfilling all ordinances such as baptism and then living the two greatest commandments to the best of our ability. It might also be said that repentance is an ongoing process, that we are not saved by perfect actions or "work", but only by our best efforts, and the Lord and the individual knows what that is.

[HoosierGuy]

Well, I'm still a new member I think, March 8th 2008. But here is how I see "works" right now. I need to always "work" to keep the covenants I have made during my baptism. I also need to always "work" to be more like my Savior and Brother Jesus Christ. I also need to work on being a better Christian. That means for me, in past I have not smiled at people in public. Now I need to work on that and try to start smiling at people in public. I have never volunteered to help the poor or needy in my life. That is something I dream of doing. That is something I need to "work" on and, putting my faith in Jesus, find a place where I can volunteer even though I'm not sure I have it in me or would fit in with the other volunteers. This is something I want to do and I know I should do - I'm going to work to do it.

I think the heart of works comes in when we have a choice between choosing the right or choosing the wrong. I'm working on choosing the right. Not easy, I have failed plenty of times I'm ashamed to say, but I'm working on it.

Edited September 26, 2008 by HoosierGuy
spelling

[richlittell]

... this natural tendency to conflate salvation with "enduring to the end" makes me uncomfortable, and is probably too much for Calvinists (who stress God's Sovereignity and our total inability to influence grace) to accept.

Thank you PC, you are one of our greatest contributors.

I understand this position, it is one my grandparents and parents hold until this day.

However, we LDS should not soft shoe here to placate our protestant brethren, we DO believe that a man, once saved, can fall from grace in open rebellion against the Lord. Others may fall from the higher kingdom, but not immortal salvation. Nevertheless, it would take a great sustained and knowledgeable feat of wickedness for man to fall to outer darkness--but it is possibile. (but not so many as I was taught would go there by some of the churches I once belonged to--and that would include about 13 million Mormons, not to mention the millions who have gone on before us ).

[prisonchaplain]

I realize this, as I was once Protestant. :) I view grace as something God gives freely, because without it no amount of works would or could suffice. However, to me, works are the choice to fall under His grace, as it were. There again, the Atonement and the grace wrought therein can be categorized into its unconditional and conditional attributes, according to my beliefs.

This is much like the classic riddle...which came first, the chicken or the egg? Only in this case, it's grace or works. Protestants insist that works are a RESULT of salvation and grace...not a prerequisite. If my good works help me to earn even 1% of my salvation, then I'm a party to it...I had a hand in it.

[prisonchaplain]

However, we LDS should not soft shoe here to placate our protestant brethren, we DO believe that a man, once saved, can fall from grace in open rebellion against the Lord.

Perhaps here is why I am able to see both the similarity and divide. My church (and I) also believe that falling from grace is possible. Work out your salvation daily, with fear and trembling. Satan goes about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Guard your hearts. And, of course, the warnings to the 7 churches of Asia-Minor that they could be removed if they did not endure to the end, return to their first love, etc. On and on I could go. BUT, did these that fall from grace lose their salvation, or did they fail to garner by not enduring to the end?

GRACE = God's Redemption At Christ's Expense

[Guest tomk]

We must always have choice.

Even God or Christ could fall from their place if they chose to become arrogant or selfish or unjust:

Alma 42: 13, 22, 25

13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

• • •

22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

• • •

25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

[rayhale]

Is it by works or by grace, this question keeps coming up over and over again. I think this is because people don’t understand salvation. What would you understand salvation to mean?

Being resurrected? Well everyone that has ever lived on earth meets this definition of salvation. Jesus Christ died so that everyone would be resurrected.

Being with God? Do you consider keeping the commandments as works? How about being a good person? Or just being moral? When asked what commandment was the greatest, Jesus compacts the Ten Commandments into two: Love God, and love thy neighbor as thy self.

Every person that says that only grace saves admits at some point that you need to do something. This is the biggest reason that I say that it is both.

I can’t say this more clear than this; is doing what God wants works?

[Brenton]

So ... by what youre saying JenaMarie... this means that as long as we believe in Christ we can do whatever we like?

This means that any action is ok?

Wow.

[WANDERER]

I'd say that most everyone can agree that some works in the Thou Shalt Not category are detrimental to salvation.