First Degree Murder and the Celestial Kingdom

[wokie]

On the subject of murder/killing where do those that kill feral animals, (me included) stand?

[Maya]

What about solders. Two innocent young solders both LDS, but on different sides both believing they are right..... what about one LDS adn one something else, still both innocent.

Why is it ok to kill in war?

[Hemidakota]

Higher officials above them will be judge and not the soldiers. There under orders to protect and serve.

[HiJolly]

On the subject of murder/killing where do those that kill feral animals, (me included) stand?

God gave the animals and the earth itself into our keeping. I'd say the answer to your question depends upon the intent of those who do the killing.

HiJolly

[rameumptom]

All of these issues fall under the concept of purpose. God commands us not to kill, but then commands some to do so. Clearly there are rules and exceptions, though they are not always spelled out to us.

I know a guy who was sent to Vietnam. While working as tower sentinel on several occasions, he noticed a woman who would work the rice paddies about 500 yards from his position. He and his buddies would occasionally see how close they could come to her with M16 fire, without hitting her. One day, he fired. She fell down and didn't rise. He didn't think anything else of it until after he returned to the States and to civilization. At that point the nightmares flooded in. He still has them occasionally, almost 40 years later.

He believes that while the leaders of nations will be judged for the wars, soldiers will still be judged by God for the crimes to innocent people they commit. I suspect he's right.

As for suicide, there are those who are not capable of understanding what they are doing. I suspect God will not judge them, UNLESS it was their own actions that led them to that point of mindlessness (using drugs, etc). But I also believe there are many who have led themselves into a depression, listening to the mournful whispers of demons, convincing them to focus on the worthlessness of this life. It would be one thing for the person to sincerely try therapy and not have it work, and give up; another thing for the person to insist on suicide, regardless of the the potential cures out there.

[Hemidakota]

He believes that while the leaders of nations will be judged for the wars, soldiers will still be judged by God for the crimes to innocent people they commit. I suspect he's right.

If it was meditated, then yes.

There are devote LDS Saints who serve and still serving, as Special Forces, Snipers, and other special ops position that requires one to kill another brother or sister in war and still serve in a leadership position wihtin the church. Looking back, one of my previous councilor was a special ops [Vietnam era] that serve under the CIA management. He was LDS during that timeframe. Seeing you are familiar and serve in the military, you may know what his role was.

[jschroeder]

I'm not going to comment on a whole lot here because I believe the only person who knows our hearts is the Saviour and He will be our judge. I'm comfortable with that and and more than comfortable leaving it to him.

I would, however, just like to add that if you have not been suicidal you cannot know the place that can and does lead some very well intended and good people. I know people who have taken their own lives and regardless of "why" I still know that the Lord will be their judge and not any one of us. I've also been there myself and attempted it a number of times.

With something this complex we cannot possibly know all the subtleties that go on in the human mind and heart. I have a hard time with blanket statments that do not take into account all of those nuances that as humans we are so prone to.

Guess that's all I wanted to say. Suicide, murder, only God knows and even then only the Lord Himself will judge us and no one else.

[rameumptom]

I understand the role of snipers and even assassins used in Vietnam and other conflicts. Picking off a woman that one had been sighting his rifle on does not fit into the category of following orders. And my friend realizes that.

His only hope is that the Lord will take under consideration the strains of war, which often cause people to do stupid things they normally wouldn't do.

Then again, that fits in with the suicide discussion, doesn't it? Are we honorable people of the earth (terrestrial), or valiant in overcoming all things (celestial)?

[Hemidakota]

Yes! I suspect his first stop will be one of asking foregiveness from the sister who life was taken; then on to the proud parents [ripple effect] of that sister.

[walterkellar]

Allow me to apologise my previous posts that may have offended anyone. Though my thinking and ideas remain rooted in anger and resentment towards the concept of a kind loving god, I realise that is not within the norm here in this community. I find myself loathing those that have what I do not. Again, sorry for the hissy-fit.

[Hemidakota]

Walter, you can have the same testimony as Joseph Smith did...

[rameumptom]

Walter, apology accepted. IN the future, if you choose a hissy-fit against the Church, you'll probably find more people who will comfort you at one of the anti-LDS sites.

Instead of being jealous of the testimonies others have, why not patiently learn from them. If God isn't revealed to you yet, perhaps it is because you are not ready. I'm convinced that certain emotional or physical conditions can prevent people from feeling or recognizing the Spirit.

The hope comes in that while we are all damaged, none of us is so broken that Christ cannot fix us - whether in this life or in the next. Often it is an issue of "be still and know that I am God." We must exercise faith and hope that God will fix all things in the long run, and will repay us for the quiet, but intense struggles we've experienced.

[Vanhin]

Allow me to apologise my previous posts that may have offended anyone. Though my thinking and ideas remain rooted in anger and resentment towards the concept of a kind loving god, I realise that is not within the norm here in this community. I find myself loathing those that have what I do not. Again, sorry for the hissy-fit.

Hey walterkellar,

No worries man. I think for the most part, we are interested in helping you in any way that we can, as limited and out of touch that our help is. :)

Regards,

Vanhin

[walterkellar]

It is not question of whether there is a God it is a preception of a like thereof of the promoted personality of God. Let me make this clear, I have a testimony of the gospel that is not the issue. It is the acceptance of of the various teachings. I know that intellectually that since the church is true, ergo the teachings are true, therefore the teachings that there is a kind loving father in heaven must henceforth be true. But viscerally it cannot be comprehended. There is where the anger lies. To say that I can have the testimony of Joseph Smith to the degree that we are loved by God is to say to Stephen Hawking that he can be Jesse Owens. Now one might counter Stephen can be a 100 meter sprinter after the resurrection yet my pain is now. I am not anti church but a very rebellious spirit. If I did not have the desire to feel loved then this would be a non-issue but yet.....I am angry that a person cannot opt out this mortality and depart. I have always liked the saying, "Suicide is man's way of telling God, 'You can't fire me! I quit!'"

[jschroeder]

Walter

I "think" i can begin to understand some of your not being able to grasp or really feel the concept of a loving Heavenly Father. One who would sacrifice His only Son for YOU. If, and I could be wrong about where I feel you may be coming from, but if you have never felt that kind of unconditional love in your life, if you have parents who are less than perfect (and most of us do) it can make it hard to internalize that unconditional love from Heavenly Father. I've been there. I grew up in a very abusive home filled with alcoholism and abuse that I know the only way I made it through was thanks to my Father in Heaven and His Spirit that kept me safe. It took me a long time to "allow" myself to really feel His love for me. I "got" the gospel when I heard it, I understood it intellectually, I believed it wholeheartedly and yet there was still a part of me that was distant, afraid and wanted nothing more than to give up on life and everything in it.

You are right suicide can be taken as a way of saying, "I quite", "there is too much pain, I can't deal, I need out", however you say it we reach a limit for whatever reason. Mine were in that I have chronic major depression and it took years to get just the medication piece straightened out so that I had some stable ground to stand on to begin building a testimony of the "finer" aspects of the gospel.

Now that I have that ground under me I can fly.....and yet I still have my days where I am depressed. I have never, however, looked back and wondered how my Father in Heaven could have loved me as He claims and allowed all to happen in my life that He did. We are given the gift of free agency and sometimes others use of that agency causes us to suffer, that is where His Love can heal us. I used to pray for revenge and for retaliation and I was angry because only God is suppose to have vengance - why not me I was the one who was injured?

Then I had a very wise stake president who suggested I pray for those who hurt me , as the Savior taught. At first I was pretty upset about that idea all together. And then I tried it, reluctantly but I did it. And it was grudgingly as well, I only did it to follow counsel I was given, that kind of thing.

Heavenly Father knows the difference and when I finally got serious about wanting to be able to pray about it the way I was asked to things began to change drastically. It opened up an entire area in my heart and soul that had been filled with that anger you speak of. It was taking up so much space I had no room to feel my Father's love for me or others. I had not the capacity to understand His love. As I worked through some of those issues with my Branch President and with many blessings I was able to come to terms with those times in my life that I had no idea why a loving father would have allowed those things to happen to me.

I guess what I'm saying is that the long and the short of it it....I had to get help for the depression I was trying to deal with AND I had to come to terms with the hatred and anger in my own heart that was blocking the Spirit and my Father's love for me and for all of His Children. While it is true that suicide is quitting it is also the most hurtful way, I think, that we reject all God has given us, His children. It is throwing back in His face all He has offered us with outstretched arms and love unconditional.

IF this is anywhere that you are coming from, and again I could be very wrong (and if I am I apologize for being long winded for no reason) I would hope and pray that you would look into your own heart and see what is in there. See if there is not room for even a tiny bit of desire to know, really know, Father's love for you. If there are other issues that need to be deal with get some help in dealing with them. Seek counseling, from either a professional or your Bishop (not sure if you are a member or not) or other persons who can help you find that love that appears to be so elusive to you right now.

I will pray that as you allow yourself to let go of some of that anger, that you will find more capacity for love in your heart and in your life. It is truly sad when someone young feels so much pain and anger that the only options left seem to die. Take care and I pray things will look up for you soon.

[walterkellar]

jschroeder,

You hit the nail on the head. Yes, it is the lack of experencing unconditional love that has had an impact in my world perspective. I have no memory of being held, kissed, cuddled, hand being held or comforting words...let alone having heard the words I love you from my mother. I have learned in my adult life that my mother experienced abuse and rape in her life so therefore she did not have the modeling of a loving parent in her life. Yet, the damage is done. So, I have no feelings when I hear the phrase 'god loves you'. They are just words.

However, it is a relief that you have understood this. Thank you very much.

[Guest tomk]

walter:

I don't pretend to have any idea how hard your life has been. It sounds like it has been horrible.

Each of us agreed to come down here to mortality and experience the challenges we do. Except under rare circumstances, Suicide is saying we know better than God does when our mortal journey should end. Of course, God will judge our heart and our circumstances. Suicide is one-way. Once we take that step it cannot be undone. What if God had help on the way? What if we were about to learn the reason for the things we had suffered? Well...we cannot experience the learning because we took matters into our own hands. We have no right to take life, even our own. Life is given by God.

The source of your angst is also the source of your deliverance. If you do not feel like you know God, then begin! He will bless every effort you make to come to know Him. But you must choose to abide in the relationship. He will not force you. He will not violate your agency. You must seek Him. But the promise is that you will find Him.

[jschroeder]

jschroeder,

You hit the nail on the head. Yes, it is the lack of experencing unconditional love that has had an impact in my world perspective. I have no memory of being held, kissed, cuddled, hand being held or comforting words...let alone having heard the words I love you from my mother. I have learned in my adult life that my mother experienced abuse and rape in her life so therefore she did not have the modeling of a loving parent in her life. Yet, the damage is done. So, I have no feelings when I hear the phrase 'god loves you'. They are just words.

However, it is a relief that you have understood this. Thank you very much.

Walter

If you want to find that love you can, it's up to you. I have found that in order to experience that love first hand you need to start small. Baby steps. Find a place that you enjoy and do some volunteer work. Put your heart and soul into the people you serve and work with. Slowly you will experience what you radiate outwards. It can be hard, really hard to start with, but with all things start small and keep it simple. See how many people you can make smile in an hour - you'd be surprised. Very small and simple things can bring you some joy. Sounds silly to start that small but it works. Would you give a newborn steak to eat or baby food even? No they need milk and that's it. To give them more would harm them and eventually kill them. So start small and grow more.

Yes there will still be times (a lot of them) that you will not feel loved because ultimately that love for yourself has to come from YOU. :)

I know that my knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ has brought me more happiness and love in my life than anything else. I have two grown children and a new baby grandson and life is good. It's hard but it's good.

Pray....seriously Pray day and night to whomever you believe God to be. Be angry and grieve for the things you have not experienced in your life - yet!! And then ask Him to help you find them - I know He will. He is a loving Father Walter and I know He LOVES YOU!! You may not be able to feel that right now but that does not change the truth HE LOVES YOU WALTER!! Go to Him and ask Him to help you and He will. Maybe not in the ways you expect but He will guide you if you will follow Him.

That is why I said in my original post we will all be judged by someone who knows our hearts and our minds and our very souls. He knows our struggles and He knows how far we have come and how far we can go. I would not want to be judge by anyone else....because in our limited minds we cannot even begin to imagine the heart of another person.

One last thing. Yes the damage is done. That is true, it was for your mother and who knows how many people back in your family. It was for my mother and myself and my brothers and sisters. That stinks and it hurts and if feels very unfair HOWEVER it is done. We can never go back and change the past what we have is today and all of our tomorrows. Who knows, Walter you may be the very person that Heavenly Father is counting on to break years of abuse...to break the cycle of that unfortunate legacy in your life. You may be the one He needs to make sure that any future generations know what real love is all about. There may be somewhere someone who will benefit from your suffering as we all benefit from the Savior's. I don't wish what I went through on anyone. I can't say I enjoyed those times in my life but I can say with certainty if I had not experienced them AND then turned them over to our Father I would not be where I am today and I would not have the capacity to love and be loved as I do today. We all have important things to learn in this life and maybe I needed/wanted to learn to be more loving or compassionate. I don't know. All I do know is that we each have a life to live, we each have choices every second of every day as to how we live that life, what we allow into it and where we allow it to take us, which path to travel. I have to tell you that traveling the path I believe my Father would have me is not always easy, it is not always on flat ground and the way is not always without obstacles but it is always close to Him, and it is filled with His love. I can't imagine living my life any other way now. You can have that in your life - if you want it.

So it is up to you what you do with that damage. Do you let it ruin your life or do you turn it into something that can benefit others and ultimately yourself as well. I believe you can do this Walter and do you know why? I believe you can do this because I know God will not give us anything in our lives that we cannot handle, WITH HIS HELP. With one some things are just impossible to over come, with HIM all things are possible. So maybe instead of focusing on the damage try to see where it can take you and what it can teach you and in turn how it will bless you and others. He will help you.

I know Walter, with every fiber of my being that God loves YOU. You are His son walter, his son!! He cares deeply for you and He knows your needs, your pain, your weakness and your strengths. He is waiting for you to come to Him because He will never take away our freedom to choose Him or reject Him in our lives. He will make weak things strong if we bring them to Him. I bare you that witness in His Son's Holy Name, even Jesus Christ.

Take care my friend and let me know how you are doing every now and then. And smile, it really won't hurt :)

Edited October 11, 2008 by jschroeder

[walterkellar]

I have thought long on a reply instead of a knee-jerk response. Given that my patriarchal blessing is 3 and half pages long with the running theme through out is 'going through the refiners' fire' I am lead to believe that my life will/is fraught with a whole bunch of "not fun". You stated that I should pray to god as I see him. I have always saw god as the Norse god, Odin. Pretty grumpy and generally peeved at someone. Jesus, as I have stated earlier, has been an individual that is cold and aloof. I find it hard to pray to these people. But I have resigned myself to the fact that it is their universe so they can act however they want.

As it has been revealed that I have lacked the association of unconditional love I have also lacked the experience of having a god-like archetype. No hoary hair grandfather dispensing sage advice whilst laughing good naturely. So do I go with the Morgan Freeman god look or is there someone else that I can pattern off of?

[Hemidakota]

It is not question of whether there is a God it is a preception of a like thereof of the promoted personality of God. Let me make this clear, I have a testimony of the gospel that is not the issue. It is the acceptance of of the various teachings. I know that intellectually that since the church is true, ergo the teachings are true, therefore the teachings that there is a kind loving father in heaven must henceforth be true. But viscerally it cannot be comprehended. There is where the anger lies. To say that I can have the testimony of Joseph Smith to the degree that we are loved by God is to say to Stephen Hawking that he can be Jesse Owens. Now one might counter Stephen can be a 100 meter sprinter after the resurrection yet my pain is now. I am not anti church but a very rebellious spirit. If I did not have the desire to feel loved then this would be a non-issue but yet.....I am angry that a person cannot opt out this mortality and depart. I have always liked the saying, "Suicide is man's way of telling God, 'You can't fire me! I quit!'"

Joseph Smith had a jumped start with his testimony when he received the First Vision and various attendance by those across the veil during his youthful immature spiritual state. Joseph testimony finally reached its pinnacle state when he and another Apostle in the temple, finally received the fullness of the Godhead in 1832. This type of testimony is what I am referring too.

[Moksha]

Suicide is never the easy way out, nor is it "selfish," or any of the other platitudes people bandy about.

What is selfish is demanding someone stay alive when he is in unbearable agony, and then they disappear, leaving him in more pain than ever.

It is also not selfish to tell yourself you have a choice, and if you need to, then you can suicide. This actually keeps a number of suicidal people alive . . . knowing he has a way to end his suffering.

Sorry, Ram, but I really hate the "suicide platitudes."

Elphaba

Interestingly, many people may hold a blanket condemnation of suicide in the case of a terminal and agonizing illness of others, yet reserve this right if they or their spouse are in this situation.

[Hemidakota]

Moksha, we are still not permitted to commit suicide even under great duress. I suffer pain and other medical ailments daily and eventually the physical body will stop working. I still give thanks for to my Heavenly Parents for creating me spiritually and affording me the opportunity to come to this earth and cloth myself with mortal flesh and experience life.

[Prodigal_Son]

This will sound a bit harsh - and was, perhaps, already mentioned (I haven't backtracked all the way through what I missed) - but suicide is a declaration that you know better than God, and ultimately represents a profound lack of faith in His ability to care for you and know what's best for you. I condemn no one, mind you. I can't begin to imagine what some folks face. This is just a "clinical" description of the error in judgment that suicide is.

[walterkellar]

I know it is a cliche within the church to say that we are not sent to fail but it seems readily apparent to my series of failures here. Even if I do not know more than god the upshot of it all is that I am tired of playing and I do not wish to play anymore. So if I get the glory behing curtain number three so be it. It can't be any worse than what it is now.

[Hemidakota]

If you have seen what lies behind DOOR #1, it is well worth to endure to the bitter end. King David thought so....he kept on repenting to his last breath.