What in the heck? No caffeine?

[Hemidakota]

Can you name one person in the church that is not following the healthy habits that the Lord set in His mortal life? There is none that I am aware of...that includes me.

As you read this whole thread, you should explain to your mother, any form of dark chocolate or milk chocolate related products has caffeine. Now, ask yourself, is there anything that she eats that is self-contradictory of this fact?

[Tarnished]

As you read this whole thread, you should explain to your mother, any form of dark chocolate or milk chocolate related products has caffeine. Now, ask yourself, is there anything that she eats that is self-contradictory of this fact?

To what purpose? What good comes from getting into an argument with my mother over whether or not she eats chocolate. I am not big into arguments or contention especially with my mother. The conversation has been had between my husband and my mother and my mother chooses to eat chocolate and not drink caffeinated beverages. That is her choice, whether it makes sense or not is really none of my business.

[Islander]

I was raised by a mother who held us to the rule of no caffeine, later when I attended college and met my husband we had some discussions about the no caffeine rule. I came to see that the choice to drink no caffeine is truly just that, a choice. It is a person's choice on how they want to live the WoW.

The leaders of the church have not said that consuming caffeine will keep us from the temple. So those who choose to not drink caffeine are choosing to say, this is how I feel the WoW should be lived. It does not mean they are the more correct, it just means that they have chosen to live that way..

There is ALWAYS a choice in everything. The WoW is no different. One can rationalize and justify just about anything. The assumption that because is not in the WoW specifically detailed it is OK falls into that category.

In this case we have a commandment given in the 1830's and thus is the letter of the law. However, more important is the spirit by which such temporal laws are to be interpreted. If we have to codify and explain every commandment and admonition of the prophets we run the risk of running into the legalistic pit our Hebrew brethren ran into. Now they need the Mishnah and the Talmud to interpret the Torah. From 150 or so basic commandments (way too many I thought) the rabbis augmented that to thousands!!! How do you get from "Thou shall not say the name of the Lord thy God in vain" to "Thou shall NEVER say the name of the Lord thy God" ? Well, the need th explain, clarify and codify so that everybody understood the law. This is why when the Savior came they did not believe Him. They had the law and they certainly still believe that salvation comes by observance of the law alone. Of course, Nephi knew better but they ran them out of town too. Again, they rationalized.

A better question is what is the overall intent of the WoW? What is it that the Lord is trying to protect us from?

Just some thoughts.

[Faded]

Is cannibalism against he Word of Wisdom? Not talking about killing people and then eating them. That's obviously wrong. But what about just buying them off the local mortician?

Okay, I'm 100% joking with the above. It was a silly and funny thought that popped into my head when my wife and I were driving home from work today. Now I'm sharing it with all of you -- with one condition. Don't take me seriously and don't read anything into it. It's what some people call an totally random weird and funny (in a sick way) thought.

I think that the Word of Wisdom has it's significant place in the Church, but it's importance is VASTLY overstated. At one point (my source is lost to the ages, so you'll have to trust me) there was a study surveying LDS Seminary students. Their task was simple. Excluding murder and denying the Holy Ghost, a list of the top ten worst sins. The results?

Seminary Students:

1.) Breaking the Word of Wisdom

2.) (can't remember it)

3.) (can't remember it)

4.) Fornication/Adultry

What is the reality? The Word of Wisdom would rank very close to last among all sins. The obsession with the Word of Wisdom leads a lot of LDS members to overlook things that are a lot bigger and a lot more important.

Shoplifting is worse than having a beer. Cheating on a test is worse than smoking a cigarette. Using gossip and rumors to intentionally ruin another persons life and reputation is worse than drinking a cup of coffee. Fornication sure as heck trumps smoking marijuana, as far as God sees it. Now I'm not saying that breaking the Word of Wisdom isn't a big deal. But I think we can rapidly lose perspective on a lot of other things by obsessing over it.

As far as caffeine goes? The General Authorities and First Presidency frequently get letters from members pleading for them to make the Word of Wisdom more strict than it is. To forbid caffeinated colas and drinks. Even chocolate. Obviously, the First Presidency and General Authorities have not done so. So it is left to the individual whether they wish to expand upon or draw conclusions from the Word of Wisdom. It's between them and God. If you have had a breakthrough of personal revelation on the matter, then by all means, live it! But imposing your own opinions and personal revelation on others is not acceptable. If they are drinking coffee (in it's many varieties) or tea (in it's many varieties), they are breaking the letter of the law. If not, then it's nobody's business but theirs.

And let's not forget the number 1 reason for living the Word of Wisdom: Because God asked us to. Not because nicotine, alcohol, caffeine and drugs are bad for us. We should live the Word of Wisdom because God said so. Every other line of reasoning should take a very distant second place.

[blessedinarizonia]

Lm mentioned the interview between President Hinkley and Larry King. I have it on tape. When asked about caffine President Hinkley replied that we believed in not consuming any caffine. Now does this mean that every member follows this to the letter, no. I myself struggle with chocolate. My thought on the subject is if you believe that he was a Prophet then you have no choice but to follow his council. If you do not believe he was a Prophet then it doesn't matter what he said. I also believe that if ;you do believe he was a Prophet then you cannot pick and choose what you want to follow. Thats just my way of looking at the situation.

[Faded]

Lm mentioned the interview between President Hinkley and Larry King. I have it on tape. When asked about caffine President Hinkley replied that we believed in not consuming any caffine. Now does this mean that every member follows this to the letter, no. I myself struggle with chocolate. My thought on the subject is if you believe that he was a Prophet then you have no choice but to follow his council. If you do not believe he was a Prophet then it doesn't matter what he said. I also believe that if ;you do believe he was a Prophet then you cannot pick and choose what you want to follow. Thats just my way of looking at the situation.

To draw that conclusion you have to make some assumptions:

1.) Larry King Live is a valid forum for the Prophet to expand upon the content of prior revelation.

2.) President Hinckley was automatically implied to be speaking God's will to God's people on Larry King Live, and it was not the Prophet expressing his own personal opinions (at least in part.)

My take on the same interview is a bit different. President Hinckley wasn't about to butcher the response to the question. Larry King said, "... and no caffeine?" To which the prophet said, "That's right." If I'm not remembering it right, please let me know. I watched the same interview and my conclusions are different -- I think it was simpler for him to answer in the affirmative rather than focus on exceptions and "letter of the law" discussions. That would have been extremely counterproductive in that circumstance. If the Larry King Live interview had altered the letter of the law on the Word of Wisdom because it was a revelation from God, it would have been brought up in council with the First Presidency and the Twelve and it would have been brought before General Conference where the entire Church would have been presented with the new additional revelation. We would have been asked to accept it by raising our right hand.

That's how the Manifesto (end of Polygamy) worked. That's how giving the Priesthood to worthy black men happened. That's how these things are done. Larry King Live isn't the proper forum for enacting such changes.

Edited January 24, 2009 by Faded

[J-Pip]

Shoplifting is worse than having a beer. Cheating on a test is worse than smoking a cigarette. Using gossip and rumors to intentionally ruin another persons life and reputation is worse than drinking a cup of coffee. Fornication sure as heck trumps smoking marijuana, as far as God sees it. Now I'm not saying that breaking the Word of Wisdom isn't a big deal. But I think we can rapidly lose perspective on a lot of other things by obsessing over it.

I would agree with you on the fact that the Word of Wisdom is too important in LDS culture. But I disagree that aside from denying the Holy Ghost, that God has a heirarchy of sin. Sin is sin, wether you told a little white lie or Killed a thousand people, without Jesus' sacrifice for you, you stand guilty of sin before God. A friend of mine came up with this analogy, if you were over at my house for a BBQ, and my dog pooped on the lawn while I was serving you up some lemonade. Say I wanted to get rid of the turd on the lawn and walked over and picked it up while holding your glass of lemonade. Say a peice of the poop falls into your glass of lemonade and I served it to you.... Would you drink it?

Lets change the senario just a little bit. Say I'm stirring your leminade with a spoon and when my dog poops on the lawn I use the same spoon to pick up and dispose of the poop. I then use a towel and wipe the spoon and stir it in your glass and serve you the lemonade, Would you drink that?

I don't think there's any Heirarchy to sin.

Now back to the topic about the Word of Wisdom. What about meat? I always thought it was pretty clear that we shouldn't eat meat only in times of famine or winter months. It's hard to argue famine, or needing to eat meat in the winter when our grains come from the other side of the world.

[J-Pip]

To draw that conclusion you have to make some assumptions:

1.) Larry King Live is a valid forum for the Prophet to expand upon the content of prior revelation.

2.) President Hinckley was automatically implied to be speaking God's will to God's people on Larry King Live, and it was not the Prophet expressing his own personal opinions (at least in part.)

My take on the same interview is a bit different. President Hinckley wasn't about to butcher the response to the question. Larry King said, "... and no caffeine?" To which the prophet said, "That's right." If I'm not remembering it right, please let me know. I watched the same interview and my conclusions are different -- I think it was simpler for him to answer in the affirmative rather than focus on exceptions and "letter of the law" discussions. That would have been extremely counterproductive in that circumstance. If the Larry King Live interview had altered the letter of the law on the Word of Wisdom because it was a revelation from God, it would have been brought up in council with the First Presidency and the Twelve and it would have been brought before General Conference where the entire Church would have been presented with the new additional revelation. We would have been asked to accept it by raising our right hand.

That's how the Manifesto (end of Polygamy) worked. That's how giving the Priesthood to worthy black men happened. That's how these things are done. Larry King Live isn't the proper forum for enacting such changes.

I believe it was Ezra Taft Benson who said that (paraphrased a bit from memory don't quote me exactly) Anything a prophet says is the will or word of God and that a prophet or president doesn't have to say "thus saith the Lord" for it to be scripture. I would take that to mean that when Gordon B. Hinckley says "we don't consume caffeine" as LDS believers don't drink caffeinated drinks.

[john doe]

Just for the record, I was famished when I got to Texas Roadhouse today. I had been in a famine for a good steak for weeks. After the meal I was not in a steak famine, and I imagine it will be a couple weeks before the steak famine hits again.

[Maxel]

I believe it was Ezra Taft Benson who said that (paraphrased a bit from memory don't quote me exactly) Anything a prophet says is the will or word of God and that a prophet or president doesn't have to say "thus saith the Lord" for it to be scripture. I would take that to mean that when Gordon B. Hinckley says "we don't consume caffeine" as LDS believers don't drink caffeinated drinks.

I think it was Benson who said that. However, that has to be taken in context with Joseph Smith's utterances that 'a prophet is only residing as a prophet when he is acting like one' (also paraphrased).

I reconcile those two sayings using the Gift of the Holy Ghost. I believe that when one who has received the Gift (and there's a difference between receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost, which is done after baptism, and feeling the Power of the Holy Ghost, which can be felt by anyone) of the Holy Ghost will be inspired to understand a prophet's words and learn what God would have him/her learn from that sermon/talk/etc.

When it comes to living doctrine, what a Saint is supposed to live like is far above and beyond the bare-bones minimum set forth in the scriptures- yet someone who is not living according to the own light they receive is not being a true Christian, or Mormon for that matter.

Does that make sense?

Edited February 15, 2009 by Maxel
Clarifying and emphasis

[GNews4BadTimes]

What about Hot Chocolate? Is that a gray area?

What about drinks with Ginkgo biloba in them? Is that also a gray area?

[ninjormon]

The CEO/president or higher up of coca cola is mormon, (someone in my ward is related so I heard this first hand) im not saying drinking coke is okay cause i dont, but thats something i would ask him about, like if you think smoking crack is wrong does that mean being a dealer is okay? And if im correct he's been a mission president over 40 different times (that I know of and he could do so because of his disposable income) and now I think his wife is the relief society president for the Church as of general conference october 2008

[mnn727]

The CEO/president or higher up of coca cola is mormon, (someone in my ward is related so I heard this first hand) im not saying drinking coke is okay cause i dont, but thats something i would ask him about, like if you think smoking crack is wrong does that mean being a dealer is okay? And if im correct he's been a mission president over 40 different times (that I know of and he could do so because of his disposable income) and now I think his wife is the relief society president for the Church as of general conference october 2008

"(someone in my ward is related so I heard this first hand)" -- actually, that would make it 2nd hand [at best]

Since a Mission president serves for 3 years at a time, that would mean he has served as a Mission President for 120 years, plus he's CEO of Coke?

Muhtar Kent (age 55) is the CEO and Chairman of the Board of Coca Cola and was born and lived in Turkey until 2006, where he was president of the Middle East and Asia division of Coca Cola before being promoted to COO of Coke (in 2006), He was then appointed CEO in 2008. replacing Neville Isdell

Biographies of both men do not list their religion or them serving missions, but their work history given shows no gaps of sufficent length of times.

Julie B. Beck, is the general president of the Relief Society: Beck grew up in Utah and in San Paulo, Brazil, where her father served as a mission president for the LDS Church. Beck graduated from BYU with a degree in family science. On 28 Dec 1973 she married Ramon P. Beck in the Salt Lake Temple.

I Have no problem with anyone chiming in on these threads, but please --lets get our facts straight before we try to teach others please. I was able to research all this online in about 10 minutes - so its not that hard.

Edited February 16, 2009 by mnn727

[john doe]

The CEO/president or higher up of coca cola is mormon, (someone in my ward is related so I heard this first hand) im not saying drinking coke is okay cause i dont, but thats something i would ask him about, like if you think smoking crack is wrong does that mean being a dealer is okay? And if im correct he's been a mission president over 40 different times (that I know of and he could do so because of his disposable income) and now I think his wife is the relief society president for the Church as of general conference october 2008

Interesting. Since mission presidents generally serve for 3 years in each place, that would make him at least 141 years old. (figuring he would have been at least 21 before the first call, and multiplying 3x40). I wonder how he ever found the time to also be leader of a major corporation. Now, if it were only 4 times, I could believe that, but 40? I'd like to shake that man's hand, and also check it for age spots. Perhaps your mistaken on the actual number?

[LittleWyvern]

What about Hot Chocolate? Is that a gray area?

What about drinks with Ginkgo biloba in them? Is that also a gray area?

With things like these is mostly up to personal opinion. I don't know exactly what ginkgo biloba is, but I drink hot chocolate all the time. Others may choose not to. It depends on who you ask.

[john doe]

I don't drink hot chocolate, it burns my tongue and taste buds. I do, however, drink warm chocolate, it's very good.

[Maxel]

What about Hot Chocolate? Is that a gray area?

If you're wondering because the Word of Wisdom denotes that 'hot drinks' are not for the belly-. 'hot drinks' was interpreted to mean coffee and tea long ago; there's nothing wrong with hot chocolate- unless one is worried about burning themselves and/or possible amounts of caffeine found within the coffee. If you're wondering because of caffeine found in chocolate (which I believe is minuscule amounts, but I might be wrong) then it is a personal issue.

What about drinks with Ginkgo biloba in them? Is that also a gray area?

I have nooo idea what Ginkgo biloba is. Be right back.

*Goes to research it.*

*Gets back*

Okay, after a quick search I'm still as confused as before. I can't find any references to it having any kind of caffeine content; the only downside I see listed is the presence of MPN, which apparently can poison children if consumed in large, prolonged doses. I would assume, however, it's not as harmful in adults; and large quantities of anything can cause poisoning or toxicity of some sort.

So, the answer is: I have no idea. I can say with 99% surety that it's not specifically mentioned in the Word of Wisdom (unless one can make tea with Ginkgo biloba, in which case that tea might be forbidden) but I guess it boils down to personal preference.

[gaspah]

Can you name one person in the church that is not following the healthy habits that the Lord set in His mortal life? There is none that I am aware of...that includes me.

As you read this whole thread, you should explain to your mother, any form of dark chocolate or milk chocolate related products has caffeine. Now, ask yourself, is there anything that she eats that is self-contradictory of this fact?

i agree with that, but comparing the caffeine content of Coke or coffee to that which is in chocolate, is like not drinking fruit juice because of the unavoidable alcohol content (as all fruit juice has an alcohol content). But I agree with other people who say its how you choose to live the WoW its not going to keep you from temple. :)

I have nooo idea what Ginkgo biloba is. Be right back.

*Goes to research it.*

*Gets back*

Okay, after a quick search I'm still as confused as before. I can't find any references to it having any kind of caffeine content; the only downside I see listed is the presence of MPN, which apparently can poison children if consumed in large, prolonged doses. I would assume, however, it's not as harmful in adults; and large quantities of anything can cause poisoning or toxicity of some sort.

So, the answer is: I have no idea. I can say with 99% surety that it's not specifically mentioned in the Word of Wisdom (unless one can make tea with Ginkgo biloba, in which case that tea might be forbidden) but I guess it boils down to personal preference.

you can make tea out of ginkgo, i beleive its the orignal use (dont quote me on that). it has nothing to do with caffiene but has simmilar effectsl.

Edited February 16, 2009 by gaspah

[talisyn]

What about Hot Chocolate? Is that a gray area?

What about drinks with Ginkgo biloba in them? Is that also a gray area?

There is no gray area when dealing with hot chocolate. You will drink ONLY the kind with little marshmallows. End of discussion

[mnn727]

What about Hot Chocolate? Is that a gray area?

What about drinks with Ginkgo biloba in them? Is that also a gray area?

The Word of Wisdom was written and "adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints"(D&C 89:3).

Thus its the "minimum requirements" and we are to decide for ourselves about things not listed in at as to whether they are good or beneficial or if they are bad or harmful for us. That is the reason you will get contradictory answers about the Word of Wisdom. What is bad for me, may not be bad for someone else.

Edited February 16, 2009 by mnn727

[Maxel]

There is no gray area when dealing with hot chocolate. You will drink ONLY the kind with little marshmallows. End of discussion

Agreed. I remember something about the marshmallows in the Word of Wisdom...

And, mnn727 is correct about the Word of Wisdom being applied to the 'weakest of the saints'; in 'gray areas' (so-called) it's whatever is the best decision for you.

[Maureen]

...but I guess it boils down to personal preference.

LOL!! Considering the subject, I found this funny! :)

[Hemidakota]

What about Hot Chocolate? Is that a gray area?

What about drinks with Ginkgo biloba in them? Is that also a gray area?

This is my sentiment on those who oppose the natural stimulate but will ingest it in other forms of natural foods.

[Faded]

I believe it was Ezra Taft Benson who said that (paraphrased a bit from memory don't quote me exactly) Anything a prophet says is the will or word of God and that a prophet or president doesn't have to say "thus saith the Lord" for it to be scripture. I would take that to mean that when Gordon B. Hinckley says "we don't consume caffeine" as LDS believers don't drink caffeinated drinks.

It was Joseph Smith who said, "A prophet is only a prophet when speaking as a prophet." So the only question to answer is whether saying the word, "Yes" on Larry King Live is the prophet speaking as a prophet.

Am I trying to make excuses for myself to drink caffeine? No. If I felt that it was the will of the Lord, I'd cut out ever bit of caffeine from my life. As it is, there ain't much but chocolate and the occasional soda.

I do think there is such a thing as a hierarchy of sin -- that not all sin is created equally. The Book of Mormon says as much:

3 And this is not all, my son. Thou didst do that which was grievous unto me; for thou didst forsake the ministry, and did go over into the land of Siron among the borders of the Lamanites, after the harlot Isabel.

4 Yea, she did steal away the hearts of many; but this was no excuse for thee, my son. Thou shouldst have tended to the ministry wherewith thou wast entrusted.

5 Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?

6 For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness.

7 And now, my son, I would to God that ye had not been guilty of so great a crime. I would not dwell upon your crimes, to harrow up your soul, if it were not for your good.

Alma clearly was of the opinion that some sins are worse than others. He was also a prophet of God, so I think he knew what he was talking about.

The Word of Wisdom was initially given, " 2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom [the phase means good advice], showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—" It was later upgraded to the status of commandment for Latter Day Saints, and I'm 99% sure it was by Brigham Young. So if God originally gave it as "good advice" and then it was later upgraded to commandment status, I think it would be pretty easy to say that this commandment is less important than most. In other words, violation of other commandments is a bigger deal in the sight of God. But you're right. All sin is bad.

Ideally, we should all avoid caffeine. It isn't good for us. But there are a long list of things that are not good for us. According to the Word of Wisdom, we should also all be eating meat sparingly and living by several other things that most of us do very poorly at. Herbs, fruits and grains should take a more active part in our diet. Those parts of D&C 89 are a lot more clearly explained.

[Hemidakota]

Then we should avoid the basic city water since it is filled with more toxicity elements than what is in chocolate. Anyone from Florida or Southern Cali? You may have the same experience.