Moving to Independence?

[Aesa]

I saw a-train say in the thread about the Kansas temple that the time will come when the LDS church will move headquarters to Independence.

Is this just speculation, or real and on the record?

I was just really surprised to read it. What're they moving the first place for? I thought Mormons believed that Salt Lake filled a prophecy because of it's location in the mountains?

[a-train]

D&C 57 will get you started.

Brigham Young said:

Before we were driven out of Missouri I had a vision, if I would dare to say that I had a vision, and saw that the people would go to the east, to the north and to the west; but we should go back to Jackson County from the west. When this people return to the Centre Stake of Zion, they will go from the west.

-a-train

Edited November 10, 2008 by a-train

[Aesa]

Hmm. Interesting read, thank-you.

So what do you speculate (are we allowed to do that on here?) will happen at Salt Lake at this time? Will it just become "old headquarters?"

[MarginOfError]

If the doom-sayers are correct, there will be a huge earthquake on the west coast and everything (and parts of) west of Colorado and Montana will fall into the ocean. I saw something about it on the History Channel, but didn't pay much attention to it.

[a-train]

The Salt Lake temple was dedicated to stand "through the Millennium". I have not seen any real indication from Church leadership that Salt Lake City will in someway suffer annihilation.

-a-train

[MarginOfError]

not yet, anyway *snicker snicker*

[rameumptom]

I think the Church will have two headquarters at that time. The city of Zion will be established in Missouri, and SLC will be a standard location where millions of members live and will continue to live.

We are not going to see 13 million people precipitously rush to MO and build a new place. Many will go, but it will be done in an orderly manner.

[Traveler]

I think the Church will have two headquarters at that time. The city of Zion will be established in Missouri, and SLC will be a standard location where millions of members live and will continue to live.

We are not going to see 13 million people precipitously rush to MO and build a new place. Many will go, but it will be done in an orderly manner.

I believe that according to prophesy that the two centers will be Jerusalem (the former Salem but now on two mountians) which will be the religious and spiritual center and Zion (the fromer city of Eonch) which will be secular or world governing center.

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

I stay out of predicting the future. But I did have an LDS neighbor who packed up his family in the early 1980's and move to Missouri. He told us kids he was doing it "so you'll have a place to stay when we all get called there".

LM

[Hemidakota]

D&C 57 will get you started.

Brigham Young said:

-a-train

Last place I would be moving before the Savior cleanse the land.

In my own quest in being in that area during a track meet with our children, I do believe the site of the temple that was dedicated by earlier Saints to be built and was not, was the central portion of the Garden of Eden where both trees were located.

[deseretgov]

I believe that according to prophesy that the two centers will be Jerusalem (the former Salem but now on two mountians) which will be the religious and spiritual center and Zion (the fromer city of Eonch) which will be secular or world governing center.

Exactly. The religion(word of God) will come from Jerusalem. The Political rule(Law of God) will come out of New Jerusalem. See my signature for more info about the political government of God.

So rather Church headquarters will be moved to Jerusalem and national headquarters will be mover to New Jerusalem.

I don't think everyone will move to Independance but a large priesthood gathering will happen.

[Hemidakota]

If my memory serves me right, the New Jerusalem will be over 1000 square miles in size when finally completed.

[deseretgov]

Another fun tidbit from the wikiGod

New Jerusalem

[Hemidakota]

Don't make go and read the gospel according to Wiki...

Some interesting tidbits about the Zion plat:

The City of Zion Plat by Richard H. Jackson

One of the distinctive characteristics of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is its emphasis on community. At a time when American farmers were creating individual farmsteads across the midwest, Joseph Smith taught that farmers needed to live in organized towns where "the farmer and his family . . . will enjoy all the advantages of schools, public lectures, and other meetings. His home will no longer be isolated, and his family denied the benefits of society" (Jackson, 230). Only three years after the Church was organized, the Prophet proposed a plan, known as the City of Zion Plat, for a community that could be replicated anywhere the Saints settled.

The City of Zion Plat, sent to Church leaders in Missouri on June 25, 1833, shows a town laid out in a regular grid pattern with north-south orientation. All of the blocks are square, with unusually wide (132-foot) streets. Such broad thoroughfares would minimize congestion, enhance safety, and allow even the largest wagons to turn easily. Blocks were divided into 20 large (one-half-acre) lots to allow for gardens in the back and shrubs and trees in front, with one house to a lot, set back 25 feet from the street. Their orientation was varied so that houses faced alternate streets on each block. Each lot was to have only one house constructed on it, and all houses were to be constructed of brick or stone. The plat required that all farms, barns, and livestock be located outside the city. The plat showed a central tier of larger blocks with 32 lots per block; the two central blocks in this tier were to be used for temples and public buildings.

The marginal notes on the City of Zion Plat indicated that it was designed to accommodate 15,000 to 20,000 people. When this size was reached, a new town was to be established far enough away to allow for enough farmland to support the residents of the new town. It is unclear whether the Prophet expected that each Mormon community would follow the City of Zion Plat. The Plat was never referred to as a Revelation, which would have given it the status of a commandment to the Saints. No community founded by Mormons ever followed it precisely.

Kirtland, Ohio, was most like the City of Zion Plat. It had square blocks with 20 lots per block and lots oriented differently on alternate blocks. But Kirtland did not have a central tier of larger blocks. Later communities, developed under the direction of Joseph Smith, differed radically from his proposed City of Zion Plat. Far West, Missouri, platted by Mormon settlers in 1836, had four large streets that were 132 feet wide bordering a central square. The balance of the streets were 82.5 feet wide, blocks were smaller than in the City of Zion Plat, and each block was divided into four equal lots. Nauvoo, the largest Mormon city in the Midwest, had streets only 49.5 feet wide, and lots were divided, as in Far West.

The most famous Mormon city is Salt Lake City. Established under the direction of Brigham Young after the martyrdom of the Prophet Joseph Smith, it resembled the city described in the City of Zion Plat in some respects. The blocks were each 10 acres in size, as proposed by the Prophet, but instead of 20 one-half acre lots, there were only eight large lots (of one and one-quarter acres) on each block. The streets were all 132 feet wide. Instead of a central tier of larger blocks, Young proposed one superblock of 40 acres (later reduced to 10 acres) to be used for a temple. Young added an additional 20 feet to the street width for sidewalks, and required that all homes be set back 20 feet from the property line. As with the City of Zion Plat, Young's instructions for Salt Lake City required building on alternate sides of the blocks to prevent homes from lining all sides of the blocks, and encouraged the planting of trees and gardens on each lot. Because of the larger lots of Salt Lake City, however, barns, livestock, and related activities were located on the town lots, creating a landscape of mini-farms in the city.

Other Mormon settlements in the Intermountain West followed the same general pattern as Salt Lake City, but the actual lot, block, and street width varies greatly from town to town. While differing in detail, the general design of regular grid survey pattern, large lots and blocks, wide streets, and use of brick and stone for construction are still distinguishing features for Mormon settlements in the Intermountain West.

Richard H. Jackson, "The Mormon Village: Genesis and Antecedents of the City of Zion Plan," BYU Studies 17 (Summer 1977): 223-240; Lowry Nelson, The Mormon Village: A Pattern and Technique of Land Settlement (1954); Joel Ricks, Forms and Methods of Early Mormon Settlements in Utah and Surrounding Regions, 1847-1877 (1964).>

[Hemidakota]

More information concerning the temples to be built at the center of the city:

The names of the temples to be built on the painted squares as represented on the plot of the city of Zion, which is now about to be forwarded thither:-numbers 10, 11, and 1 2, are to be called, House of the Lord, for the Presidency of the High and most Holy Priesthood, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of the Son of God, upon Mount Zion, City of the New Jerusalem. Numbers 7, 8, and 9, the Sacred Apostolic Repository, for the use of the Bishop. Numbers 4, 5, and 6, the Holy Evangelical House, for the High Priesthood of the Holy Order of God. Numbers 1, 2, and 3, the House of the Lord for the Elders of Zion, an Ensign to the Nations. Numbers 22, 23, and 24, House of the Lord for the Presidency of the High Priesthood, after the Order of Aaron, a Standard for the People. Numbers 19, 20, and 21, House of the Lord, the Law of the Kingdom of Heaven, and Messenger of the People; for the Highest Priesthood after the Order of Aaron. Numbers 16, 17, 18, House of the Lord for the Teachers in Zion, Messenger to the Church. Numbers 13, 14, and 15, House of the Lord for the Deacons in Zion, Helps in Government. Underneath must be written on each house-

HOLINESS TO THE LORD.

A DESCRIPTION of the House of the Lord, which is to be built first in Zion:

The house of the Lord for the Presidency, is eighty-seven feet long and sixty-one feet wide, and ten feet taken off of the east end for the stairway, leaves the inner court, seventy-eight feet by sixty-one, which is calculated and divided for seats in the following manner, viz: the two aisles four feet wide each; the middle block of pews are eleven feet ten inches long, and three feet wide each; and the two lines drawn through the middle are four inches apart; in which space a curtain is to drop at right angles, and divide the house into four parts if necessary. The pews of the side blocks are fourteen and a half feet long, and three feet wide. The five pews in each corner of the house, are twelve feet six inches long. The open spaces between the corner and side pews are for fireplaces; those in the west are nine feet wide, and the east ones are eight feet and eight inches wide, and the chimneys carried up in the wall where they are marked with a pencil.

The pulpit in the west end of the house is to be occupied by the High Priesthood, as follows:-Number 1, is for the President and his council; number 2, for the Bishop and his council; number 3, for the High Priests; and number 4 for the Elders: each of these is eight feet long, containing three coves or stands for the respective speakers; and those seats opposite them are for visiting officers, who are to occupy seats according to their respective grades. The two spaces in the middle are stairs two feet wide. The middle pulpit is to be elevated; the first seats one foot, the second two feet, the third three feet, and the fourth four feet. And those upon each side are also to be elevated: the first one eight inches, the second sixteen, the third twenty-four, the fourth thirty-two. The corner seats are to be occupied by singers, and elevated-the first seat six inches, the second twelve, the third eighteen, the fourth twenty-four, and the fifth thirty-two inches. The pulpit in the east end of the house is to be occupied by the Lesser Priesthood. Number 1, is for the Presidency of the Lesser Priesthood; number 2, for the Priests; number 3, for the Teachers; and number 4, for the Deacons; and the seats by their sides, are also to be occupied by visiting officers; each one opposite his respective grade. The pulpits are to be finished with panel work, in the best workmanlike manner; and the building to be constructed of stone and brick of the best quality. Observe particularly that as there are pulpits at each end of the house, the backs of the congregation must be to one of them, and they will want occasionally to change. In order for this the house must have pews instead of slips, and in the pews let the seats be loose, that they may slip from one side of the pew to the other, so as to face either pulpit, as occasion may require.

The side view represents five windows in each story. The windows are to have each forty-eight lights, of seven by nine glass, six one way and eight the other; the sides and lintels of the windows to be hewn stone, and on the top of the lintel is to be a Gothic top, as you see, but the windows must have a lintel; and so with the outside doors, all with Gothic tops.

Make your house fourteen feet high between the floors. There will not be a gallery but a chamber; each story to be fourteen feet high, arched overhead with an elliptic arch. Let the foundation of the house be of stone; let it be raised sufficiently high to allow of banking up so high as to admit of a descent every way from the house, so far as to divide the distance between this house, and the one next to it. On the top of the foundation, above the embankment, let there be two rows of hewn stone, and then commence the brick-work on the hewn stone. The entire height of the house is to be twenty-eight feet, each story being fourteen feet; make the wall a sufficient thickness for a house of this size. The end view represents five windows of the same size as those at the side, the middle window excepted, which is to be the same, with the addition of side lights. This middle window is designed to light the rooms both above and below, as the upper floor is to be laid off in the same way as the lower one, and arched overhead; with the same arrangement of curtains, or veils, as before mentioned.

The doors are to be five feet wide, and nine feet high, and to be in the east end of the house. The west end is to have no doors, but in other respects is to be like the east, except the windows are to be opposite the alleys which run east and west. The roof of the house is to have one-fourth pitch, the door to have Gothic top, the same as the windows. The shingles of the roof to be painted before they are put on. There is to be a fanlight, as you see. The windows and doors are all to have venetian blinds. A belfry is to be in the east end, and a bell of very large size.

You will be careful to have hooks and rings to suspend your veils on, so that they can be let down or raised at any time, at pleasure. Also, as you see, the pulpits are to have four seats, rising one above another; for instance, the Elder's seat is the lowest, next comes the High Priest's, next the Bishop's; so each of these must have a veil that is suspended from the upper floor, so as to be let down; which will at any time when necessary be let down, and shut off each stand or seat by itself.

Explanation of the Plat of the City of Zion, June 25, 1833, 61833-June 25-DHC 1:357-362

[deseretgov]

I have that description too. Much better than the wikigod. Too bad there's not a better image of the plat.

[Hemidakota]

Most of those prints can be had at the BYU archives: Religious Education Archive : Search Results

[Moksha]

If the doom-sayers are correct, there will be a huge earthquake on the west coast and everything (and parts of) west of Colorado and Montana will fall into the ocean. I saw something about it on the History Channel, but didn't pay much attention to it.

Yikes, wouldn't that be an 11 or 12 earthquake rating on the Richter Scale?

Anyway, I had heard that all the Murdock Travel buses have been booked for this eventuality. Probably the Wendover tour buses too, including the one with pink carpeting.

[deseretgov]

Most of those prints can be had at the BYU archives: Religious Education Archive : Search Results

Hey wow! Thanks.

[Hemidakota]

Yikes, wouldn't that be an 11 or 12 earthquake rating on the Richter Scale?

Anyway, I had heard that all the Murdock Travel buses have been booked for this eventuality. Probably the Wendover tour buses too, including the one with pink carpeting.

I can only agree with the assessment on what shall come for California but I don't think everyone in Nevada and Arizona will have 'beach front property'.

I do believe many within certain cities will be buried to hide the sins that are before the Savior as it was prior to His Meso America visitation.

[MrNirom]

D&C 57 will get you started.

Brigham Young said: Before we were driven out of Missouri I had a vision, if I would dare to say that I had a vision, and saw that the people would go to the east, to the north and to the west; but we should go back to Jackson County from the west. When this people return to the Centre Stake of Zion, they will go from the west.

Nice to know that a person can have a vision and not be the Prophet at the time.

Edited November 12, 2008 by MrNirom

[Hemidakota]

Anyone have the article describing the cleansing of the land prior to returning?

[yeti_mawl]

My understanding is that the new Jerusalem will be built there preparatory to the second coming. My guess is that SLC as it currently stands would be an unfit environment for the Savior and that a new city where the inhabitants live higher laws will abide. SLC may very well exist during this time.

Just an opinion for the time being.

[deseretgov]

Anyone have the article describing the cleansing of the land prior to returning?

Is that the one about the yellow dog?

[Hemidakota]

Correct.

This is what I found concerning this upcoming event:

Return to Jackson County

There has been some speculation that civil disobedience or disasters may precede the future building of the City of Zion, or the New Jerusalem. Most, if not all, of this is based on two sources: first, a reported prophecy of Joseph Smith to General Alexander Doniphan, his friend and attorney in Missouri; and second, an alleged prophecy by President Heber C. Kimball, counselor in the First Presidency to Brigham Young.

The Joseph Smith prophecy was recorded by General Doniphan's brother-in-law some seventy years after it was reportedly spoken. According to the account, the Prophet warned Doniphan that "God's wrath hangs over Jackson County . . . and you will live to see the day when it will be visited by fire and sword. . . . The fields and farms and houses will be destroyed, and only the chimneys will be left to mark the desolation." (L. M. Lawson, as quoted in Junius F. Wells, "A Prophecy and Its Fulfillment," Improvement Era, November 1902, p. 9; italics added.)

General Doniphan is reported to have said that "the devastation of Jackson County [during the Civil War] forcibly reminded him of this remarkable prediction." (Ibid.) Elder B. H. Roberts used this account as well as vivid descriptions of the destruction in Jackson County during this terrible war to show the fulfillment of Joseph Smith's prophecy regarding this land of Zion. (See Comprehensive History of the Church, 1:537-59.)

The alleged prophecy of President Heber C. Kimball is often referred to as the "yellow dog" prophecy. This declaration focuses on some future destruction in Jackson County. Elder Graham W. Doxey, of the Seventy, has written the following regarding its origin:

It seems to have originated in a conversation between Heber C. Kimball and Amanda H. Wilcox in Salt Lake City in May 1868. She reports him as saying, "The western boundaries of the State of Missouri will be swept so clean of its inhabitants that, as President Young tells us, when we return to that place, 'There will not be left so much as a yellow dog to wag his tail.'" (Prophetic Sayings of Heber C. Kimball to Sister Amanda H. Wilcox, n.p., n.d., p. 6.)

There seem to be a number of questions about the authenticity of this account since Heber C. Kimball was apparently in Provo, not Salt Lake, during the month of May. Also, no other record exists of Brigham Young making a similar statement. However, it is sufficiently similar to Joseph Smith's statements, except for the "yellow dog," that someone may have remembered the original substance but in the retelling allowed embellishment to creep in. ("Missouri Myths," Ensign, April 1979, p. 65.)

One other statement should be considered regarding the return to Jackson County to build the City of Zion. As a counselor in the First Presidency, President Joseph F. Smith stated the following:

When God leads the people back to Jackson County, how will he do it? Let me picture to you how some of us may be gathered and led to Jackson County. I think I see two or three hundred thousand people wending their way across the great plain enduring the nameless hardships of the journey, herding and guarding their cattle by day and by night, and defending themselves and little ones from foes on the right hand and on the left, as when they came here. They will find the journey back to Jackson County will be as real as when they came out here. Now, mark it. And though you may be led by the power of God "with a stretched out arm," it will not be more manifest than the leading the people out here to those that participate in it. They will think there are a great many hardships to endure in this manifestation of the power of God, and it will be left, perhaps to their children to see the glory of their deliverance, just as it is left for us to see the glory of our former deliverance from the hands of those that sought to destroy us. This is one way to look at it. It is certainly a practical view. Some might ask, what will become of the railroads? I fear that the sifting process would be insufficient were we to travel by railroads. We are apt to overlook the manifestations of the power of God to us because we are participators in them, and regard them as commonplace events. But when it is written in history—as it will be written—it will be shown forth to future generations as one of the most marvelous, unexampled and unprecedented accomplishments that has ever been known to history." (JD, 24:156-57; italics added.)

Elder Graham W. Doxey provided the following commentary on President Smith's statement:

"This is a vivid mental picture, but people frequently remember the picture and forget he said 'some of us' and 'may be gathered.' We should also keep in mind that he said this is 'one way to look at it,' remembering also the perspective of 1882. From our perspective [today], it seems even less likely that we would sell our automobiles and herd cattle along our freeway systems. But we simply have no scriptural information about who—if any general Church members—will be called to go back and the means that they might use. The prophets of our day have not found it timely or necessary to speak on the matter." ("Missouri Myths," pp. 64-65.)