American Family Asociation's Christmas "Ornament"

[Guest DeborahC]

The lawn ornament, a cross wrapped in white christmas tree lights, bears frightening similarity to a burning cross. A burning cross was used most notably by the Ku Klux Klan as a way to intimidate non-Caucasians.

QUOTE]

I don't think that this 3 foot variety bears ANY RESEMBLENCE WHATSOEVER to the burning KKK Cross!

Comparing the two is like calling a pussycat a saber-toothed tiger.

People see what they want to see.

The cross was bastardized by the KKK just as many other symbols have been, including the pentagram, which by the way, stands at the door of the cemetary in the Azore Islands where my family is buried, and can still be seen in many church windows in Spain.

If some Christians choose to reclaim the cross, I say hoorah!

I think it's a beautiful symbol.

To me, the light represents the light of Christ, Tipareth.

The empty cross speaks of the resurrection of the Savior.

We see what we want to see.

I see beauty in this symbol.

Edited November 20, 2008 by DeborahC

[Guest DeborahC]

Interesting. I've never heard that one before. PM me and tell me what they say.

Here's a link for you to enjoy: http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/masonicsymbolsandtheldstemple.htm

In other interesting things about mormons, I found out this weekend that Christ was crucified in Utah. Why don't they tell us this stuff in Sunday School?

He was?

Edited November 20, 2008 by DeborahC

[Guest DeborahC]

Interesting. I've never heard that one before. PM me and tell me what they say.

Here's a link for you to enjoy: ( edited by moderator: link removed--anti-LDS website)

In other interesting things about mormons, I found out this weekend that Christ was crucified in Utah. Why don't they tell us this stuff in Sunday School?

He was?

I think it's interesting that you say that people are asking "all the time" about it, because (1) I've never heard anyone ask about it; and (2) other than Salt Lake (and maybe Nauvoo, though I'm not sure), I didn't even know that LDS temples had moons on them.

Regardless, questions asked about a moonstone on a temple are hardly comparable to the hatred that a burning cross evokes.

Well Wing, first of all I didn't say anybody was "asking" anything. I said I heard comments about it all the time. Now you say you haven't, and that's fine, but that could be for many reasons. Maybe you just hang out with mormons? Maybe you don't hang out with anti-mormons? I live in Portland, Oregon where there are a lot of liberals -- I'm also in University -- maybe I'm involved in more religious discussions than you are? Maybe I'm just twice your age and have had more time to hear them? Gosh, I don't know

Could you tell us about the time you saw a burning cross?

I'd be interested in hearing that story?

As far as raping, murdering, and lynching, I haven't heard much of that going on lately.

Last I looked we had a black president and the country had moved on...

I fear if we live our lives constantly worried about offending someone, it will be a very sterile, boring, nervous life.

No thank you.

Edited November 20, 2008 by john doe

[Guest SisterofJared]

Being Politically Correct means ALWAYS having to say you're sorry!

[Guest DeborahC]

Well, that's true, but I AM sorry Elphaba, that this upsets you so.

I just don't see what you're seeing.

[Moksha]

I'm not sure why the KKK started using the cross when terrorizing people.

I sincerely doubt if that was the intention, and certainly the AFA might want to revisit the idea of marketing it.

Sister of Jared

My guess as to why they used to burn crosses is the same reason they hid themselves in bedsheets: They were closeted cross dressers. Too bad they couldn't have worn something pink and frilly underneath instead.

Once they had the prototype cross in mock up before production, it would have been hard to not notice the similarity between that "Christmas Decoration" and the Klan symbol. Wonder if some will put them on their front porch for other holidays as well?

[Guest SisterofJared]

Yes it would do the world a favor if we all avoided pink and frilly instead!

[prisonchaplain]

As FYI, I didn't see "it" at first either. Further, I'm guessing that despite being located in Missippi, the group did not see the KKK connection, either. Done in humor? No, like most of us, the burning cross was probably nowhere on the radar screen, when this decision to sell this trinket was made.

On the other hand, here in the progressive northwest, many Christian churches, included evangelical ones, are removing their crosses. Some use the racial history as a reason. Others say it has lost its meaning as being redemptive, and has come to be viewed as morbid and triumphalist.

Personally, I understand the LDS rational, but am saddened that many of these churches are giving up a historic symbol with deep meanings, due mostly to marketing strategy.

On the other hand, the American Family people might consider giving up the lights, at least, out of respect and as a true demonstration of being "pro-family."

[Gwen]

so with all the ppl upset about this has anyone contacted them to say what they first saw in it.......... ?

[KristofferUmfrey]

Does it include kerosene and matches?

[Elphaba]

Being Politically Correct means ALWAYS having to say you're sorry!

Would you mind helping me out with this, because heaven knows I don’t want the pejorative “politically correct” hung around my neck.

I have been here over a year and a half, and it would be impossible for me to count how many posts I have read that cry “persecution.“ And in almost every one of them, they liken the very real persecutions the early Saints endured to the pithy persecutions they think they are still enduring today.

According to your rationale, if I express my compassion for the black Americans who were terrorized by monsters, I am being politically correct. I get that.

But when someone here writes a post about the early Saints who were terrorized, albeit in much smaller numbers, and by different monsters, am I being politically correct if I express my compassion for them as well?

Or, again using your rationale, when I express my belief that is better not to offend people by displaying an item that evokes their hate-filled and violent past, I am being politically correct.

But if I express my concerns that it is offensive to demean the early Saints' hate-filled and violent past by comparing it to the present persecutions that are nothing but, isn't that being politically correct as well?

Because the only difference I see is one of the groups is Mormon.

I don’t cherry pick the atrocities I give my compassion to. And if showing my compassion for one of the above is being politically correct, then it is true for other as well.

So be it. I don't mind.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Does it include kerosene and matches?

Probably not.

You'll have to make your own crosses if you want to burn them.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

so with all the ppl upset about this has anyone contacted them to say what they first saw in it.......... ?

me me me!

Elphie

[Elphaba]

Once they had the prototype cross in mock up before production, it would have been hard to not notice the similarity between that "Christmas Decoration" and the Klan symbol. Wonder if some will put them on their front porch for other holidays as well?

Moksha,

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

You always say in two sentences what I'm trying to in one wordy post after another.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

As FYI, I didn't see "it" at first either. Further, I'm guessing that despite being located in Missippi, the group did not see the KKK connection, either. Done in humor? No, like most of us, the burning cross was probably nowhere on the radar screen, when this decision to sell this trinket was made.

This is why I disagree.

I was an assistant buyer, albeit briefly, for Albertson's. I also had my own publishing business where I wrote/edited/designed numerous ads like the one on the website.

It is a lengthy process to get a new item on the shelves, or in this case, on the website. I have no idea how many buyers the AFA has, if any, but usually there is an extensive analysis of the product, including its provenance, to determine if it will show a profit.

I mention its provenance because it is possible other stores bought the item as well, and if there were any serious complaints about the product, the vendor has to provide that information to the buyer. In this case, the company that makes the cross is the vendor, and the buyer is the AFA.

If the vendor does not provide the item's provenance, including any serious complaints, it is a violation of the contract, and it stands to lose a great deal of money.

Additionally, when editors put put the ads together, they question everything, including the content. If I, as an ad designer, had questioned the content of the ad, in this case the cross, I would have gone to the powers that be, just in case they hadn't seen it. At the point, the PTB would have had to approve it anyway for it to be included in the on-line catalogue.

Frankly, if I had been the ad designer, I would have strenuously insisted they re-think the product. But I am also used to making these decisions on my own, and not having to convince anyone of anything. That is not usually the case for in-house editors, who, in this case, probably got the ad assignment without benefit of questioning it.

On the other hand, the AFA does not appear to be a large company, and usually editors in smaller companies have more say about the product. Obviously there are a number of possibilities here.

But when editors design ads like this one, it goes through at least two or three sets of eyes, because the original writer cannot see errors after working on it for a period of time. Errors pop out at fresh eyes.

I doubt the AFA's process is as tight as what I've described above; however, it has a large product line, and there has to some analysis of each item, including its provenance, or else the company would go under.

I do not believe that not one of the people who saw this item, from inception to inclusion in the AFA's product line and the corresponding ad, did not notice its resemblance to the burning crosses. The item simply goes through too many hands, and in the case of the ads, too many eyes.

Having said that, I noticed the product does not have a price per se; rather, it has a suggested donation that corresponds with the price the item would sell for. So I wonder if the AFA is funded by a parent company where profits are not the goal. If so, that would pretty much negate everything I just wrote. Well, most of it.

On the other hand, here in the progressive northwest, many Christian churches, included evangelical ones, are removing their crosses. Some use the racial history as a reason. Others say it has lost its meaning as being redemptive, and has come to be viewed as morbid and triumphalist.

Okay, I don't get this. How is the cross itself a symbol of racist history? Was it used without it being burned? If so, I did not know that.

On the other hand, the American Family people might consider giving up the lights, at least, out of respect and as a true demonstration of being "pro-family."

I don't understand why people on this thread intimated I am overreacting, yet most of you agree the cross is in poor taste.

Meh*

Elphaba

*"Meh" is one of the new words added to the dictionaries.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Elphaba

[MarginOfError]

The fact that people will see what they want to see in this symbol is precisely why I wouldn't put one up in my yard. While I may understand what it is meant to represent, there are too many people out there that don't. I don't need a fallout like this one coming to my doorstep. If someone wants to put one up in their yard, I have no objection to that. When the community freaks out about the burning cross they put up, I'll do my best to explain that there isn't any need to label that person a racist. But I'm not going to feel sorry for the person for what they end up going through.

One of the first rules of communication is that the message understood by the receiver is really the only message that matters.

And Elphs, I love you, but you're wrong. It is entirely possible that the people working for the AFA couldn't catch this similarity this bears to the KKK symbol. You seem to be forgetting that the AFA is a collection of some of the worlds greatest morons that hates anyone that doesn't submit to their brand of Christianity.

[RachelleDrew]

That cross is a REALLY bad idea. I'm with Elph on this one, how did they not notice that it looks like a burning cross?

It's sad that the KKK have perverted it, but a burning cross makes you look racist. Period.

[Gwen]

elph, darling, sweetie, :) though i agree with how it looks.... when was the last time you were in (or anywhere near) dear old mississippi in which you noted so much histroy? not saying those things did not happen (nor would i ever) or there isn't a sordid history down here but i'm an hour or so from the border and it's not "that" bad in comparison. yes there are extreamist that still exist (i think you find those a lot of places). but the rest of us down here are pretty tame. i can see this being totally missed by non extream yungsters whose minds are focused on one thing.

for the record we have many lighted crosses in our town at christmas (i'm in alabama) that do not look like they are on fire. the issue isn't a lighted cross it's the poor design of this one with lights sticking out everywhere which remove the clean lines that make it look like they are on fire.

i see this as an innocent mistake and we can throw it in the file with the obama sock monkey to pull out for a good laugh about ignorance when a good laugh at someone's expense is needed.

and though i know many would disagree and i do not advocate forgetting history in the least... i see it as kinda good that these kinds of "mistakes" are being made. it does mean that we are moving on from our past. not forgetting but not reliving it through every generation all the time. we can never fully heal and progress as a country if we don't allow ourselves to be able to know our history without feeling it in every breath.... if that makes any since.

[Guest Alana]

My first thought was 'a burning cross?' Then about a second later I realized that it wasn't intended to be. If I saw that on someones lawn I probably wouldn't have thought the were intentionally making a negative statement, but I would probably point out 'hey doesn't that look like a burning cross?'

[KristofferUmfrey]

I think being offended over something that wasn't meant to offend is worse then the unintended offense.

In other words..... lighten up!

[Iggy]

Elphaba

I see it as a burning cross too- it is tacky, in poor taste and needs to be redesigned.They need to put just enough lights to outline the cross, then that would be different.

[Guest SisterofJared]

Would you mind helping me out with this, because heaven knows I don’t want the pejorative “politically correct” hung around my neck.

I have been here over a year and a half, and it would be impossible for me to count how many posts I have read that cry “persecution.“ And in almost every one of them, they liken the very real persecutions the early Saints endured to the pithy persecutions they think they are still enduring today.

Definately I am a new kid on the block compared to you and most others in this community. I have not seen countless posts where people are crying persecution. Thinking about it, I know I have heard about the attacks on temples since prop 8 passed, and certainly some people are saying that is targeted against mormons in particular. But I don't think those attacks have anything to do with driving the saints into the snow in their bleeding bare feet, or tarring and feathering them. I don't think it equates at all, and to my mind you have to stretch far to come up with this lit Christmas cross being a similar thing.

According to your rationale, if I express my compassion for the black Americans who were terrorized by monsters, I am being politically correct. I get that.

But when someone here writes a post about the early Saints who were terrorized, albeit in much smaller numbers, and by different monsters, am I being politically correct if I express my compassion for them as well?

Or, again using your rationale, when I express my belief that is better not to offend people by displaying an item that evokes their hate-filled and violent past, I am being politically correct.

But if I express my concerns that it is offensive to demean the early Saints' hate-filled and violent past by comparing it to the present persecutions that are nothing but, isn't that being politically correct as well?

Because the only difference I see is one of the groups is Mormon.

I don’t cherry pick the atrocities I give my compassion to. And if showing my compassion for one of the above is being politically correct, then it is true for other as well.

So be it. I don't mind.

Elphaba

Feel free to give compassion to any group you desire. Just please understand that because someone doesn't see what you see doesn't mean that they are hardened monsters with no compassion. If I saw this cross as designed to remind blacks of the bitter history of prejudice, then I would feel outrage and compassion. There are enough sorrowful things in the world for me to grieve over, I don't need to invent one more. Since I don't see a burning cross, I don't feel overwhelmed by the desire to be outraged about it.

Actually, Elphie, my statement about being politically correct wasn't about YOU at all. I was agreeing with Deborah when she said, "I fear if we live our lives constantly worried about offending someone, it will be a very sterile, boring, nervous life.

No thank you."

When I look at that picture of a lit cross, I do not see a burning cross, I do not see a cross that reminds me of the Klu Klux Klan. I suspect that the people at the AFA did not see a lit cross. There is something to be said for not being offended when no offense is intended. It gets wearisome constantly walking on eggshells worrying about inadvertently offending someone. We live in a diverse world, and the truth is you can ALWAYS offend someone, even with the most innocent of words or actions. Sometimes it's you... sometimes it them.

That said, I apologize if you thought my words about being politically correct were aimed at you. They were really a statement about me. I stand by the intentions of my heart, and refuse to be politcally correct. If that is perceived as a lack of compassion, sobeit. I know better.

Sister of Jared

[Wingnut]

Well Wing, first of all I didn't say anybody was "asking" anything. I said I heard comments about it all the time.

Your exact words were "making disparaging remarks." I stand corrected. It still doesn't change the premise of my comment.

Now you say you haven't, and that's fine, but that could be for many reasons. Maybe you just hang out with mormons?

I live in the East, so, no.

Maybe you don't hang out with anti-mormons?

I try to avoid associations with anti-Mormons.

I live in Portland, Oregon where there are a lot of liberals -- I'm also in University -- maybe I'm involved in more religious discussions than you are?

I grew up in a highly integrated Southern California, where as a white girl, I was in the minority. In high school, I moved to Portland, Oregon. After high school, I lived in two different states in New England. Tell me where in the country you can find a more concentrated group of liberals that all of New England? I worked with a man once who, when he found out that I was LDS said, "Mormon? I didn't know they had those in Connecticut!"

Maybe I'm just twice your age and have had more time to hear them? Gosh, I don't know

You know what? This is the second time in a week on this forum that I have seen my opinions disregarded and/or shot down based on my age and therefore supposed inexperience. Frankly, I'm sick of it.

Could you tell us about the time you saw a burning cross?

I'd be interested in hearing that story?

I've never seen a burning cross. I have however, read a history book. Just because I've never seen it doesn't discount my belief that the image evokes strong emotions.

As far as raping, murdering, and lynching, I haven't heard much of that going on lately.

Last I looked we had a black president and the country had moved on...

I voted for a black president, so I don't feel the need to be reminded of his victory. The whole country hasn't moved on. For the last year and a half, I have had my email Inbox flooded with anti-Obama propaganda from my dear old grandmother. I never replied, I never commented. I think it just might send her over the edge to know that I supported him. I looked forward to the election when I was sure it would stop. The emails are still coming. I'm sure I'm not the only one still receiving them. Everyone has not moved on.

I fear if we live our lives constantly worried about offending someone, it will be a very sterile, boring, nervous life.

No thank you.

In this case, I would be only partly worried about offending someone, but also partly concerned with retaliation that might be taken against me if I were to put this in my yard. I currently live in a suburb of Cleveland, in Cuyahoga County. I live in the Ohio 11th Congressional District, which is the 4th most liberal district in the country, and not un-diverse, either. There are at least as many black people living on my street as white people.

[StrawberryFields]

When I first saw Elphaba OP I didn't see the link in her post so I read a few more on down before going to click on the word "this". I saw the Cross on the porch highly lit up but then I looked beyond that and saw the beautiful front doors with the matching header. :)

[prisonchaplain]

This is why I disagree.

Having said that, I noticed the product does not have a price per se; rather, it has a suggested donation that corresponds with the price the item would sell for. So I wonder if the AFA is funded by a parent company where profits are not the goal. If so, that would pretty much negate everything I just wrote. Well, most of it.

First, I've known of AFA for years, but am not on their list. So, I know them for the "family values" advocacy, not their line of religious trinkets. My guess is the sales are simply meant to help fund their advocacy efforts, and that the vetting process is extremely short and informal. I live in the northwest, am in a biracial/bicultural marriage, and I did not get the implications when I first saw the ad. Of course, once someone explained it, "Oh my...yeah...I can see that."

By the by, I think there is a sense amongst many whites of being tired of everything seeming to be turned into a racial matter. Sometimes it seems that minorities are overreaching, such as when Jewish groups claimed that Gibson slow-motioned the scene when Judas threw the coins at the leaders in order to highlight the stereotype about "Jews and their money."

Sometimes, we are so hardened by our frustration that we fail to see when something truly does have racial undertones, intended or not.

Okay, I don't get this. How is the cross itself a symbol of racist history? Was it used without it being burned? If so, I did not know that.

No...not to be burned...just trying to be extra sensitive about the association. Like I said, the message of the cross requires repentence, and it includes a message of guilt, wrong-doing, humiliation before God. Even many Christians have become averse to "bad emotions." So, they want to emphasize God's love and goodness and helpfulness--the cross isn't needed for those messages. Also, there's the Crusades. People killed for their religious beliefs by soldiers marked with crosses.

I don't understand why people on this thread intimated I am overreacting, yet most of you agree the cross is in poor taste.

Elphaba

Again, we so frustrated by racial criticisms that are unfounded, that we sometimes miss the ones that are legitimate. Also, we sometimes want so much to defend the good intentions of the accused offender, that we miss that an offense has truly happened.

*"Meh" is one of the new words added to the dictionaries.