"Second coming"?

[Aesa]

Can you show me similar threads then?

I'd like to read them.

[Guest ceeboo]

Just wanted to pop in and say hi to everyone.:)

HI !!!! :):):)

[goofball]

Can you show me similar threads then?

I'd like to read them.

Who are you addressing?. Maybe I missed something there.

[Elgama]

Just wanted to pop in and say hi to everyone.:)

HI !!!! :):):)

:):):)How very nice to see you

[Traveler]

I wanted to make a topic of discussion about the Second coming of Jesus Christ.

Jesus is not supposed to return until the world ends, so if he returned to Joseph Smith the world should have ended ... since he returned. This is in the scriptures.

So, how do mormons reconcile this?

How do you reconcile Acts 9:4 - 5?

The Traveler

Edited December 4, 2008 by Traveler

[Dr T]

I know you're not asking me but what needs to be reconciled in Acts 9:4 - 5?

[Traveler]

I know you're not asking me but what needs to be reconciled in Acts 9:4 - 5?

Jesus came and appeared to Paul (in a similar manner to coming to Joseph Smith) and the world did not end.

The Traveler

[Justice]

Yes, he did it after his ressurection.

But, he hadn't ascended into heaven yet, he'd only finished the 3 days in hell.

Strain at a knat yet swallow a camel...

This is immediately after His resurrection:

John 20:

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

After, when He appeared to His disciples in the closed, locked room:

Luke 24:

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

If the reason Christ did not let Mary touch Him was because He had not yet ascended to His Father, and then He invited others later to touch Him, it is safe to assume He appeared to people after He ascended to the Father.

In any case, this really isn't the point.

The point is, the Book of Mormon is the great fruit of the restored church. Either the Book of Mormon is true, or it isn't.

I would never presume to tell Jesus when He can appear and when He can't. If He did something different than what I *thought* He said, I would assume I was wrong.

This is a perfect parallel to when Christ appeared in the flesh. Many rejected Him because *they* misunderstood the prophecies about His appearing.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Justice

[KristofferUmfrey]

Strain at a knat yet swallow a camel...

This is immediately after His resurrection:

John 20: 17

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

After, when He appeared to His disciples in the closed, locked room:

Luke 24:

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

If the reason Christ did not let Mary touch Him was because He had not yet ascended to His Father, and then He invited others later to touch Him, it is safe to assume He appeared to people after the resurrection.

In any case, this really isn't the point.

The point is, the Book of Mormon is the great fruit of the restored church. Either the Book of Mormon is true, or it isn't.

I would never presume to tell Jesus when He can appear and when He can't. If He did something different than what I *thought* He said, I would assume I was wrong.

This is a perfect parallel to when Christ appeared in the flesh. Many rejected Him because *they* misunderstood the prophecies about His appearing.

You guys need to get on the same page. Aesa is talking about His ascension into heaven at the beginning of Acts.

WelcomeHome

[Elgama]

I know you're not asking me but what needs to be reconciled in Acts 9:4 - 5?

I think confusion came because Aesa did not understand that Joseph Smith had, had a vision, and had seen it as Jesus returning. So whilst LDS would compare it to Paul/Stephen etc - Aesa was imagining something different and we didn't even have hold of different ends of stick it was 2 different sticks:)

-Charley

[Justice]

*My confusion* came from these responses to this quote:

Quote:

Well, in the NT it is clear Jesus returned to the apostles. It is clear that folks like Stephen saw him in vision.

Well, he hadn't even ascended into Heaven yet...

And then:

he'd only finished the 3 days in hell.

To me, that's not describing *after* the 40 days the Savior spent with the disciples on and off before finally ascending into heaven. That is clearly describing the time right after His resurrection where He just spent the 3 days in *hell* (the Spirit World), and ascended to His Father.

I read literally and attempt to write literally so I don't misunderstand anyone.

[Dr T]

Got it Traveler I thought u were talking about something else. Thank you.

===

Thank you too Elgama :)

[Wingnut]

Sorry, I just made my post my clear.

There is just a problem with this whole vision.

What about the divering stories?

Different stories? Well, for starters, I don't think Joseph had a photographic memory.

In college, did you ever take a road trip? When you got home, did you tell your brother about it? What about your parents? A week later, did you tell someone at church? Do you look back now and relate stories from the road trip from time to time? Is your account the exact same every time? Do you remember the exact details every single time? Maybe some things fade while other parts become stronger. Maybe you emphasize certain parts of the story depending on your audience.

How is this scenario different from Joseph Smith giving differing accounts of the First Vision?

Regardless of the versions, I focus primarily on the account given in the Pearl of Great Price, as it is the one that has been included in LDS Canon.

[Aesa]

How is this scenario different from Joseph Smith giving differing accounts of the First Vision?

Seeing God the Father and God the Son, is a much bigger deal than going on a road trip.

I'd agree with you on your points if it weren't the major details that differ, as far as I can tell. You have the one where many angels (alone) appeared, etc,.

Tell you what if Jesus Christ visited me, I'd be out on the streets preaching Jesus Christ everyday. And I'd probably write about it the second I had the chance.

I'm sure you're aware that the 1838 account is the canonised one.

1832 Account:

[T]he Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in <the> attitude of calling upon the Lord <in the 16th year of my age> a pillar of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the <Lord> opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph <my son> thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy <way> walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life <behold> the world lieth in sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned aside from the gospel and keep not <my> commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them according to th[e]ir ungodliness and to bring to pass that which <hath> been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] written of me in the cloud <clothed> in the glory of my Father . . . ."

Source: Smith, Joseph, Jr. (1832), "History of the Life of Joseph Smith", in Jessee, Dean C, Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, ISBN 1-57345-787-6, History of the Life of Joseph Smith - Wikisource

1835 Account to Joshua the Jewish Minister:

“being wrought up in my mind, respecting the subject of religion and looking at the different systems taught the children of men, I knew not who was right or who was wrong and I considered it of the first importance that I should be right, in matters that involve eternal consequ[e]nces; being thus perplexed in mind I retired to the silent grove and bow[e]d down before the Lord … I called upon the Lord for the first time, in the place above stated or in other words I made a fruitless attempt to p[r]ay … I called on the Lord in mightly prayer, a pillar of fire appeared above my head, it presently rested down upon me, and filled me with Joy unspeakable, a personage appeard in the midst of this pillar of flame which was spread all around, and yet nothing consumed, another personage soon appeard like unto the first, he said unto me thy sins are forgiven thee, he testified unto me that Jesus Christ is the Son of God; <and I saw many angels in this vision> I was about 14 years old when I received this first communication; When I was about 17 years old I saw another vision of angels in the night season after I had retired to bed …”

Source: Joseph Smith Diary, Nov. 9, 1835 as found in Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, compiled by Dean C. Jessee, pp. 75-77; also in An American Prophet’s Record, p. 51.

William Smith:

Gave an account, of what he knew from his brother.

[A] light appeared in the heavens, and descended until it rested upon the trees where he was. It appeared like fire. But to his great astonishment, did not burn the trees. An angel then appeared to him and conversed with him upon many things. He told him that none of the sects were right; but that if he was faithful in keeping the commandments he should receive, the true way should be made known to him; that his sins were forgiven, etc.

Source: Smith, William (1883), William Smith on Mormonism: A True Account of the Origin of the Book of Mormon, Lamoni, Iowa: RLDS Church, Smith History Vault: 1883 William B. Smith book .

Edited December 4, 2008 by Aesa
Much addition.

[Moksha]

His coming in glory isn't until the the "Second Coming", He can visit His prophets whenever He feels like it.

Sounds good. The incidents referred to could have merely been a holo-projections.

[Aesa]

How is this scenario different from Joseph Smith giving differing accounts of the First Vision?

Seeing God the Father and God the Son, is a much bigger deal than going on a road trip.

I'd agree with you on your points if it weren't the major details that differ, as far as I can tell. You have the one where many angels (alone) appeared, etc,.

Tell you what if Jesus Christ visited me, I'd be out on the streets preaching Jesus Christ everyday. And I'd probably write about it the second I had the chance.

I'm sure you're aware that the 1838 account is the canonised one.

1832 Account:

[T]he Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in <the> attitude of calling upon the Lord <in the 16th year of my age> a pillar of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the <Lord> opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph <my son> thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy <way> walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life <behold> the world lieth in sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned aside from the gospel and keep not <my> commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them according to th[e]ir ungodliness and to bring to pass that which <hath> been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] written of me in the cloud <clothed> in the glory of my Father . . . ."

Source: Smith, Joseph, Jr. (1832), "History of the Life of Joseph Smith", in Jessee, Dean C, Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, ISBN 1-57345-787-6, History of the Life of Joseph Smith - Wikisource

1835 Account to Joshua the Jewish Minister:

“being wrought up in my mind, respecting the subject of religion and looking at the different systems taught the children of men, I knew not who was right or who was wrong and I considered it of the first importance that I should be right, in matters that involve eternal consequ[e]nces; being thus perplexed in mind I retired to the silent grove and bow[e]d down before the Lord … I called upon the Lord for the first time, in the place above stated or in other words I made a fruitless attempt to p[r]ay … I called on the Lord in mightly prayer, a pillar of fire appeared above my head, it presently rested down upon me, and filled me with Joy unspeakable, a personage appeard in the midst of this pillar of flame which was spread all around, and yet nothing consumed, another personage soon appeard like unto the first, he said unto me thy sins are forgiven thee, he testified unto me that Jesus Christ is the Son of God; <and I saw many angels in this vision> I was about 14 years old when I received this first communication; When I was about 17 years old I saw another vision of angels in the night season after I had retired to bed …”

Source: Joseph Smith Diary, Nov. 9, 1835 as found in Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, compiled by Dean C. Jessee, pp. 75-77; also in An American Prophet’s Record, p. 51.

William Smith:

Gave an account, of what he knew from his brother.

[A] light appeared in the heavens, and descended until it rested upon the trees where he was. It appeared like fire. But to his great astonishment, did not burn the trees. An angel then appeared to him and conversed with him upon many things. He told him that none of the sects were right; but that if he was faithful in keeping the commandments he should receive, the true way should be made known to him; that his sins were forgiven, etc.

Source: Smith, William (1883), William Smith on Mormonism: A True Account of the Origin of the Book of Mormon, Lamoni, Iowa: RLDS Church, Smith History Vault: 1883 William B. Smith book .

[KristofferUmfrey]

Seeing God the Father and God the Son, is a much bigger deal than going on a road trip.

I'd agree with you on your points if it weren't the major details that differ, as far as I can tell. You have the one where many angels (alone) appeared, etc,.

Tell you what if Jesus Christ visited me, I'd be out on the streets preaching Jesus Christ everyday. And I'd probably write about it the second I had the chance.

I'm sure you're aware that the 1838 account is the canonised one.

1832 Account:

[T]he Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in <the> attitude of calling upon the Lord <in the 16th year of my age> a pillar of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the <Lord> opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph <my son> thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy <way> walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life <behold> the world lieth in sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned aside from the gospel and keep not <my> commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them according to th[e]ir ungodliness and to bring to pass that which <hath> been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] written of me in the cloud <clothed> in the glory of my Father . . . ."

Source: Smith, Joseph, Jr. (1832), "History of the Life of Joseph Smith", in Jessee, Dean C, Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, ISBN 1-57345-787-6, History of the Life of Joseph Smith - Wikisource

1835 Account to Joshua the Jewish Minister:

“being wrought up in my mind, respecting the subject of religion and looking at the different systems taught the children of men, I knew not who was right or who was wrong and I considered it of the first importance that I should be right, in matters that involve eternal consequ[e]nces; being thus perplexed in mind I retired to the silent grove and bow[e]d down before the Lord … I called upon the Lord for the first time, in the place above stated or in other words I made a fruitless attempt to p[r]ay … I called on the Lord in mightly prayer, a pillar of fire appeared above my head, it presently rested down upon me, and filled me with Joy unspeakable, a personage appeard in the midst of this pillar of flame which was spread all around, and yet nothing consumed, another personage soon appeard like unto the first, he said unto me thy sins are forgiven thee, he testified unto me that Jesus Christ is the Son of God; <and I saw many angels in this vision> I was about 14 years old when I received this first communication; When I was about 17 years old I saw another vision of angels in the night season after I had retired to bed …”

Source: Joseph Smith Diary, Nov. 9, 1835 as found in Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, compiled by Dean C. Jessee, pp. 75-77; also in An American Prophet’s Record, p. 51.

William Smith:

Gave an account, of what he knew from his brother.

[A] light appeared in the heavens, and descended until it rested upon the trees where he was. It appeared like fire. But to his great astonishment, did not burn the trees. An angel then appeared to him and conversed with him upon many things. He told him that none of the sects were right; but that if he was faithful in keeping the commandments he should receive, the true way should be made known to him; that his sins were forgiven, etc.

Source: Smith, William (1883), William Smith on Mormonism: A True Account of the Origin of the Book of Mormon, Lamoni, Iowa: RLDS Church, Smith History Vault: 1883 William B. Smith book .

That's why God appeared to Joseph. Whether it was just the Savior or both, I'm still right.

WelcomeHome

[Aesa]

That's why God appeared to Joseph. Whether it was just the Savior or both, I'm still right.

Um, not really. So from what I understand you're trying to say ... "I don't care if he contradicted himself, he's still right!!" ... Please elaborate/correct me.

[Elgama]

Tell you what if Jesus Christ visited me, I'd be out on the streets preaching Jesus Christ everyday. And I'd probably write about it the second I had the chance.

I'm sure you're aware that the 1838 account is the canonised one.

[.

What if the Lord has commanded you to not reveal it just yet and the time is not right.>? I have had many deep spiritual experiences some I do not share because they are for me alone and others I share in an edited form because much of the experience is very personal, but some of it is relevant to others.

As I understand it the 1832 account was his personal account in his diary and he recorded very personal journey of repentance. This in my opinion was not necessary to be canonised as the more powerful journey of Enos is already in there

[T]he Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in <the> attitude of calling upon the Lord <in the 16th year of my age> a pillar of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the <Lord> opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph <my son> thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy <way> walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life <behold> the world lieth in sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned aside from the gospel and keep not <my> commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them according to th[e]ir ungodliness and to bring to pass that which <hath> been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] written of me in the cloud <clothed> in the glory of my Father . .

Actually reading it I am not entirely sure this is the same vision it seems to have happened later. What does anyone else think? In which case this one is personal.

As I understand it this is the only version that was not written by someone else so the others were secondhand information like the Gospels. The 1838 version was first published in England in 1840, and in the United States in 1842. For whatever reason it was not deemed necessary for Latter Day Saints before that time to be fully aware of the First Vision, which indicates to me the version we have canonised is what the Lord has commanded we need to know.

I personally believe that the Bible contains real stories but they are edited and told in such a way as to teach us deeper meaning and symbolism. I should imagine the rest of the Standard Works are the same.

-Charley

[Aesa]

it was not deemed necessary for Latter Day Saints before that time to be fully aware of the First Vision,

You're actually correct on this point, as far as I can tell, the first vision was virtually unknown before the mid-late 1830's.

I can't be bothered replying to anything else in your post at the moment because I gotta go get some exercise. Interesting discussion though, and I'll make a response later.

Grant Palmer has noted that Joseph Smith had a clear motive for changing his story in 1838, a period of crisis within the Latter Day Saint Movement. At the time there was open dissent against Smith's leadership. A quarter of the original Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and some 300 members—perhaps fifteen percent of the total membership—had left the church. Palmer argues that Smith "fearing the unraveling of the church," wrote a new "more impressive version of his epiphany" in which Smith claimed that his original call had come from God the Father and Jesus Christ rather than from an angel.

From: Palmer, 248-252. Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer were excommunicated on April 12-13, 1838. The following week Smith contemplated rewriting his history. On April 26, he renamed the church. The next day he "started dictating a new first vision narrative." (248)

Edited December 4, 2008 by Aesa

[Elgama]

You're actually correct on this point, as far as I can tell, the first vision was virtually unknown before the mid-late 1830's.

I can't be bothered replying to anything else in your post at the moment because I gotta go get some exercise. Interesting discussion though, and I'll make a response later.

Real life does rather get in the way of a cyber life doesn't it lol - I'm waiting for kids to finish watching Lazy Town to get everyone dressed.

Yet it was 4 years later it was widely taught? Like I say whilst the other versions lift my spirit the 1838 one is the one God wanted us to be taught, we obviously didn't need to know about the angels or the details of a personal prayer.

-Charley

Edited December 4, 2008 by Elgama

[Aesa]

I think that's a little too blanketed.

It almost feels like "let us just be quiet and accept what the Church says," now that said I understand why an LDS person would believe this 100%.

The leadership, when they speak, it is as if God is speaking -- no?

[Elgama]

I think that's a little too blanketed.

It almost feels like "let us just be quiet and accept what the Church says," now that said I understand why an LDS person would believe this 100%.

The leadership, when they speak, it is as if God is speaking -- no?

In this case yes its scripture - and no we do not accept things 100% because the Prophet speaks we accept because of the Gift of the Holy Ghost and personal revelation, speaks to us that he is a Prophet of God - there are things that my Stake President and Branch President say that I know through the Holy Ghost and personal revelation and I equally take as scripture, but as I have known of my branch president since college, not every talk he has ever given has spoken to my heart (although to be honest most have) . There are conversations I have had with my husband I treat as scripture for my family.

Like I said in a previous post something happened to me and I know the truth of what Joseph Smith taught in the 1838 revelation because a certain aspect of it happened to me. But its personal to every Latter Day Saint why that revelation 1838 is the truth for them, I reckon you could have 40 of us reply to this thread and get 40 different responses. This is what a relationship with our Heavenly Father is about.

=Charley

[Justice]

Well, keep in mind that there were no computers, no mass media, and Joseph only had a 2nd grade education at the time, preventing him from writing it down in an elucid form. My guess is that when he obtained the know-how and skill to write it down, he did. The accounts seem to disagree, at least in part, because different people were relating what Joseph had told them at different times.

Even the 4 Gospels disagree as to timing and events, and none of the 4 are comprehensive, and they all use different language and wording. In my estimation, that doesn't mean any of the epistles are fasle, or as a better comparison here, that all the books of the Bible are all false together because the 4 gospels are not in complete harmony.

I stand by my earlier statement about reading the Book of Mormon, or events related to it, with an eye of criticism verses an eye of curiosity. The authors of the books within it knew this to be true...

Morm. 8:

12 And whoso receiveth this record, and shall not condemn it because of the imperfections which are in it, the same shall know of greater things than these. Behold, I am Moroni; and were it possible, I would make all things known unto you.

1 Ne. 19:

6 Nevertheless, I do not write anything upon plates save it be that I think it be sacred. And now, if I do err, even did they err of old; not that I would excuse myself because of other men, but because of the weakness which is in me, according to the flesh, I would excuse myself.

But, Nephi gave the real test here, saying that having your mind made up before you read the Book of Mormon is not "judging," but condemning...

2 Ne. 33:

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.

12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day.

13 And now, my beloved brethren, all those who are of the house of Israel, and all ye ends of the earth, I speak unto you as the voice of one crying from the dust: Farewell until that great day shall come.

14 And you that will not partake of the goodness of God, and respect the words of the Jews, and also my words, and the words which shall proceed forth out of the mouth of the Lamb of God, behold, I bid you an everlasting farewell, for these words shall condemn you at the last day.

15 For what I seal on earth, shall be brought against you at the judgment bar; for thus hath the Lord commanded me, and I must obey. Amen.

Words that pusuade men to believe in Christ...

Sounds worthwhile to me, and worth at least an honest look.

[Hemidakota]

I wanted to make a topic of discussion about the Second coming of Jesus Christ.

Jesus is not supposed to return until the world ends, so if he returned to Joseph Smith the world should have ended ... since he returned. This is in the scriptures.

So, how do mormons reconcile this?

Reconcile what? There is nothing to reconcile here but few here on this planet have work to accomplish....

When He does return, the science community will give their interruption of natural events. :lol: If you see behind this meaning, then you will note, not all the world will note, He has returned.