Our Intelligences and Learning

[HoosierGuy]

I have a testimony of the pre-life. I have a strong testimony of

the pre-life. I also have a testimony that we have always existed - in either our "intelligence" form or Spirit Children.

We are here to learn and progress forward and I and I know many of you want to make it to the CelestialKingdom and Exaltation and progress forward forever.

My question - before the pre-life, when we were in our "intelligence" form, were we also learning and progressing forward? What do we know about our intelligences? Were we learning during that time?

Something inside of me, the Holy Ghost, tells me that I have been constantly progressing for eternity. I progressed when I was in the intelligence form and thru the pre-life. Know I'm progressing here on earth.

So, what do you say and think about our intelligences?

[Traveler]

We are not children of the universe – we are older than that. Most that dare to consider the universe realize that it is likely 12 billion years old or older. We are all at least that old as spiritual children of G-d. If one foot was equal to 1000 years that means we have been around about as long as the distance between Salt Lake City and Las Angles. Our existence here on earth is not much more than an inch. If you were on a trip from Salt Lake City to LA what do you think could happen in the last inch and a half of that trip that would change who you are at your core?

The Doctrine and Covenants tells us we have agency because “that which was from the beginning is plainly made manifest.”

The problem is not in getting there – it is all about the journey.

The Traveler

[BenRaines]

Traveler, just as you pointed out. All along the trip and it is the last part of the trip that matters most for those who have arrived at this point. We have already passed the first test in premortality, this is the second and final test.

Ben Raines

[Traveler]

Traveler, just as you pointed out. All along the trip and it is the last part of the trip that matters most for those who have arrived at this point. We have already passed the first test in premortality, this is the second and final test.

Ben Raines

Perhaps if we have already passed the important tests that got us to here - then the real test of this life would be to "find" ourself.

The Traveler

[Palerider]

Traveler, just as you pointed out. All along the trip and it is the last part of the trip that matters most for those who have arrived at this point. We have already passed the first test in premortality, this is the second and final test.

Ben Raines

how true it is Ben...:)

[Hemidakota]

I have a testimony of the pre-life. I have a strong testimony of

the pre-life. I also have a testimony that we have always existed - in either our "intelligence" form or Spirit Children.

We are here to learn and progress forward and I and I know many of you want to make it to the CelestialKingdom and Exaltation and progress forward forever.

My question - before the pre-life, when we were in our "intelligence" form, were we also learning and progressing forward? What do we know about our intelligences? Were we learning during that time?

Something inside of me, the Holy Ghost, tells me that I have been constantly progressing for eternity. I progressed when I was in the intelligence form and thru the pre-life. Know I'm progressing here on earth.

So, what do you say and think about our intelligences?

We were not always a spirit child per say since we were formed after HIS image. Not only that, there is another thread that goes to great length that speaks about this. However, noting that the Holy Ghost been moving on number of collective individuals lately dealing with this topic.

To simplified this question, we had progress from a lower order to something that most are not able to answer at this time, which is beyond our FATHER's dominion. Beyond that, it is not needful to know for most.

[Guest tomk]

I have a testimony of the pre-life. I have a strong testimony of

the pre-life. I also have a testimony that we have always existed - in either our "intelligence" form or Spirit Children.

We are here to learn and progress forward and I and I know many of you want to make it to the CelestialKingdom and Exaltation and progress forward forever.

My question - before the pre-life, when we were in our "intelligence" form, were we also learning and progressing forward? What do we know about our intelligences? Were we learning during that time?

Something inside of me, the Holy Ghost, tells me that I have been constantly progressing for eternity. I progressed when I was in the intelligence form and thru the pre-life. Know I'm progressing here on earth.

So, what do you say and think about our intelligences?

You can find some great talks and information on intelligences. Apparently the brethren, particularly in the early history of the church, used to talk about them more than now-a-days.

Cleon Skousen gave a great talk on intelligences back in 1980 in Texas.

In my signature, below, you can find a link to an online book I am writing called "The Science of Sanctification" -- in this book I am attempting to describe the link between intelligence and sanctification. In other words, it is my personal belief that God sanctifies us (makes us holy) by quite literally changing our internal construction. We begin to think and behave differently because we have been, in essence, reprogrammed. This reprogramming is the result of God re-organizing the intelligences which comprise us. We become new creatures. I don't think people realize how literal this is.

I do not think we began learning until we were organized into spirit bodies. But I do believe we have been learning and progressing ever since, and continue to do so down here on earth, and will continue to do so into the eternities. Eventually, like Heavenly Father, our progression will be measured by the children we are able to extend salvation to.

Tom

Edited December 15, 2008 by tomk

[JohnBirchSociety]

I have a testimony of the pre-life. I have a strong testimony of

the pre-life. I also have a testimony that we have always existed - in either our "intelligence" form or Spirit Children.

We are here to learn and progress forward and I and I know many of you want to make it to the CelestialKingdom and Exaltation and progress forward forever.

My question - before the pre-life, when we were in our "intelligence" form, were we also learning and progressing forward? What do we know about our intelligences? Were we learning during that time?

Something inside of me, the Holy Ghost, tells me that I have been constantly progressing for eternity. I progressed when I was in the intelligence form and thru the pre-life. Know I'm progressing here on earth.

So, what do you say and think about our intelligences?

I don't personally believe we are eternal beings. I believe GOD created us, in totality.

I believe this because of what the Bible and Book of Mormon say about it, and because of the laws of physics and science, such as thermodynamics.

We are created, in all respects. GOD is the sole creator and is the only self-existent thing / being anywhere, anyplace, anytime. In fact, GOD created time.

[HiJolly]

I don't personally believe we are eternal beings. I believe GOD created us, in totality.

I believe this because of what the Bible and Book of Mormon say about it, and because of the laws of physics and science, such as thermodynamics.

We are created, in all respects. GOD is the sole creator and is the only self-existent thing / being anywhere, anyplace, anytime. In fact, GOD created time.

Some mystics (both Christian and Jewish) claim that God Himself separated into uncountable 'sparks' of light (intelligence?) and these are the beginnings of all consciousness within creation. The ultimate destiny to be reunited eventually into a single cosmic One. Then, repeat.

= One eternal round, with a word-play on the word "One" similar to the LDS word-play on "eternal". They call it the mystery of the one and the many.

Something to ponder.

HiJolly

[HoosierGuy]

I don't personally believe we are eternal beings. I believe GOD created us, in totality.

I believe this because of what the Bible and Book of Mormon say about it, and because of the laws of physics and science, such as thermodynamics.

Is the King Follett Sermon recognized by the Church as official doctrine?

[Hemidakota]

The question is, do we teach it today in the church?

[HiJolly]

Is the King Follett Sermon recognized by the Church as official doctrine?

No, and I don't think it should be. However, it is something I consider to be truth, at various levels of understanding.

HiJolly

[ruthiechan]

Everything on earth has spirit, everything. This is doctrine.

I have wondered, do our individual cells know the whole that they make up? The whole being our bodies? Do they know how much it harms our bodies when they mutate or fail to fight off invasions? Are they aware how much the actions of the whole affects them?

It reminds me of the Prince of Egypt. Does a single thread in a tapestry know it's place in the grand design? Do we know how much we are worth and how important we are in that design? Or do we wish to fray ourselves and become scraps to be used for some lesser project or worse, diminish ourselves to the point where we are never used at all for anything meaningful? Cast aside, taking up space, serving no purpose. . .

[HiJolly]

Everything on earth has spirit, everything. This is doctrine.

Ok.

I have wondered, do our individual cells know the whole that they make up? The whole being our bodies? Do they know how much it harms our bodies when they mutate or fail to fight off invasions? Are they aware how much the actions of the whole affects them?

Good Q's.

It reminds me of the Prince of Egypt. Does a single thread in a tapestry know it's place in the grand design? Do we know how much we are worth and how important we are in that design? Or do we wish to fray ourselves and become scraps to be used for some lesser project or worse, diminish ourselves to the point where we are never used at all for anything meaningful? Cast aside, taking up space, serving no purpose. . .

HA! This is why I had to respond. Brian Stokes Mitchell sang "Through Heaven's Eyes", and Wow!! He is soooo good!

I just heard it live about 10 times last week, with Stokes. I am so blessed!!

HiJolly

[sister_in_faith]

This brings to mind something I have always wondered... Why were some of us born earlier, and some of us born thousands of years later? I feel very blessed to have been born at a time when the restored gospel was available for me to accept! I was led to believe that just like this life is a step we must progress through in order to be ready for what is next, we had to be ready for this step, so yes, before we were born we were learning and progressing. That is the truth I feel in my heart as well.

[JohnBirchSociety]

Is the King Follett Sermon recognized by the Church as official doctrine?

Since it is a complete obliteration of previous foundational scripture, I've no choice than to reject it as false doctrine.

As sad as that may seem.

I believe in continuous revelation. I believe in Prophets. I don't believe they can change the fundamental, bedrock principles of scripture.

[ruthiechan]

This brings to mind something I have always wondered... Why were some of us born earlier, and some of us born thousands of years later? I feel very blessed to have been born at a time when the restored gospel was available for me to accept! I was led to believe that just like this life is a step we must progress through in order to be ready for what is next, we had to be ready for this step, so yes, before we were born we were learning and progressing. That is the truth I feel in my heart as well.

I have always believed that we are sent to earth at a time where we will most likely accept the Gospel.

[Hemidakota]

Everything on earth has spirit, everything. This is doctrine.

I have wondered, do our individual cells know the whole that they make up? The whole being our bodies? Do they know how much it harms our bodies when they mutate or fail to fight off invasions? Are they aware how much the actions of the whole affects them?

It reminds me of the Prince of Egypt. Does a single thread in a tapestry know it's place in the grand design? Do we know how much we are worth and how important we are in that design? Or do we wish to fray ourselves and become scraps to be used for some lesser project or worse, diminish ourselves to the point where we are never used at all for anything meaningful? Cast aside, taking up space, serving no purpose. . .

...and every Spirit in this world has intelligence.

[Hemidakota]

No, and I don't think it should be. However, it is something I consider to be truth, at various levels of understanding.

HiJolly

Some it still being taught in various manuals of the church. Though, it is not canonized, we must decide for ourselves, what is truth and what is not.

[Hemidakota]

This brings to mind something I have always wondered... Why were some of us born earlier and some of us born thousands of years later? I feel very blessed to have been born at a time when the restored gospel was available for me to accept! I was led to believe that just like this life is a step we must progress through in order to be ready for what is next, we had to be ready for this step, so yes, before we were born we were learning and progressing. That is the truth I feel in my heart as well.

Ask Heavenly Father ...something I have learned from the PB and life in general, a few of us, wanted to come in the time of no sin or the Millennium. But, GOD had other plans for us to accomplish and experiences may be needed. If we had to choose when to come, it would be now. Greater trials will earn greater rewards.

I do agree, for some of us needed to come at certain times in order to help our own edification and help our salvation for the eternal worlds to come.

[HoosierGuy]

But, GOD had other plans for us to accomplish and experiences may be needed. If we had to choose when to come, it would be now. Greater trials will earn greater rewards.

I do agree, for some of us needed to come at certain times in order to help our own edification and help our salvation for the eternal worlds to come.

I know those that lived in the horse and buggy days and before had a tuff time. Life expectancy was not that long - many died in their 30's. Lots of babies and children dying. Not the access to medicine that we have.

But look at what we have to face - satan calls us almost at ever turn. Television, movies, magazine, the public, internet. Last week I was on youtube and clicked on a link that featured the most popular youtube videos of the week or month. I saw something that seemed strange and I decided to check it out - unrighteous video from Japan - not want I wanted to see.

At this point in history, it sure is easy to find sinful things that tempt us even if we are not searching for them. If satan tempted people from 200 years ago 100% of the time, I feel satan tempts us 200% of the time.

[ruthiechan]

I know those that lived in the horse and buggy days and before had a tuff time. Life expectancy was not that long - many died in their 30's. Lots of babies and children dying. Not the access to medicine that we have.

But look at what we have to face - satan calls us almost at ever turn. Television, movies, magazine, the public, internet. Last week I was on youtube and clicked on a link that featured the most popular youtube videos of the week or month. I saw something that seemed strange and I decided to check it out - unrighteous video from Japan - not want I wanted to see.

At this point in history, it sure is easy to find sinful things that tempt us even if we are not searching for them. If satan tempted people from 200 years ago 100% of the time, I feel satan tempts us 200% of the time.

Seriously.

That Huh, I wonder what this is? gets me in trouble. I end up seeing all sorts of crap. I am finally learning that while inquisitiveness is a good thing one must be choosy about what to explore, or better yet, ask yourself, should I risk seeing something I wouldn't want to see. When I do that the spirit usually comes upon me (by asking the question it seems to invite it) and tell me no, or, it's okay this time. *sigh*

[Prodigal_Son]

Perhaps if we have already passed the important tests that got us to here - then the real test of this life would be to "find" ourself.

You're dead on. I think ALL this life comes down to discovering who we really are/were. Because once we have an inkling of THAT, this life's in the bag!

Is the King Follett Sermon recognized by the Church as official doctrine?

I find it impossible to doubt the source. Second only to Christ in mortal productivity! Myriad theophanic (new word, perhaps???) experiences! To doubt Brother Joseph is to doubt the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I have wondered, do our individual cells know the whole that they make up? The whole being our bodies? Do they know how much it harms our bodies when they mutate or fail to fight off invasions? Are they aware how much the actions of the whole affects them?

As pointed out earlier, the Skousen talk titled "The Atonement" (and chronicled in the back of "The Fourth Thousand Years") has a very intriguing approach to this all. And it was taught to him by Apostle John Widtsoe. He indicates that the intelligences stand independent of God, but that through God's perfectness, they honor His wishes. Thus, Christ working miracles was a matter of commanding those genes, cells, molecules, etc to get back to doing what they were supposed to be doing all along... Certainly interesting to ponder...

This brings to mind something I have always wondered... Why were some of us born earlier, and some of us born thousands of years later?

My Patriarchal Blessing says I was reserved not only by choice, but by assignment. When I look at how good my life is, and how good OUR lives are, as members of the church, as members of a powerful, healthy, vibrant society... I have to believe that I WAS SENT TO THE EARTH AND BORN INTO THE GOSPEL SO THAT I COULD FOCUS MY EFFORTS HERE NOT ON SURVIVAL, BUT ON THE HARVEST. We of the covenant are modern day John the Baptists who're supposed to be making straight the way of the Lord.

Since it is a complete obliteration of previous foundational scripture, I've no choice than to reject it as false doctrine.

As sad as that may seem.

I believe in continuous revelation. I believe in Prophets. I don't believe they can change the fundamental, bedrock principles of scripture.

You contradict yourself. You believe in prophets, but the greatest one of our era teaches false doctrine? A modern prophet is MORE IMPORTANT and MORE ACCURATE than scripture. And Brother Joseph was light years ahead of us in understanding the big scheme of things. Haven't we already got enough people in this world slandering him?

[aliasgeorge]

I have a testimony of the pre-life. I have a strong testimony of

the pre-life. I also have a testimony that we have always existed - in either our "intelligence" form or Spirit Children.

We are here to learn and progress forward and I and I know many of you want to make it to the CelestialKingdom and Exaltation and progress forward forever.

My question - before the pre-life, when we were in our "intelligence" form, were we also learning and progressing forward? What do we know about our intelligences? Were we learning during that time?

Something inside of me, the Holy Ghost, tells me that I have been constantly progressing for eternity. I progressed when I was in the intelligence form and thru the pre-life. Know I'm progressing here on earth.

So, what do you say and think about our intelligences?

Hoosierguy. This question of Intelligence has come up before, and I wrote a lengthy post a few weeks ago which I will quote below. I have studied, fasted and prayed for understanding on this issue in the past, and will share some of the sources I have subsequently found. Rather than theorize on these questions, I encourage you to find out what the brethren have taught on this issue--not BYU professors, not unofficial publications of 70s, etc, but what the most current teachings in the church are. I have never found anyone who was able to create a case for your viewpoint using the scriptures and priesthood body statements. You are welcome to belief what you want. But since your question is essentially "is it true?", I will post you my belief that no, it is not, and here is why:

Getting back to the original question: One must understand what the term "intelligences" means in scripture in order to make sense of what is going on here. "The Father and The Son" A doctrinal exposition signed by the first presidency and quorum of the 12 define "intelligences" as personal spirit children of the Father. In other words, "intelligences"=Spirit child. This isn't my opinion. Look up the source. Thus "intelligences" were already either male or female--they were spirit children.

Confusion comes in when the term "intelligence" comes up--that which always existed and is the matter by which our spirits were created. Joseph Smith taught that “the elements are eternal.” (D&C 93:33) Phrased another way, “intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither can be.” (D&C 93:29) All things were created from eternal matter, both physical and spiritual creations alike (see D&C 131:7-8, JD 13:248). The material from which all things were created was in the beginning with God. It has always been, and cannot be created or destroyed. If it were not so, we could not exist forever as resurrected beings with the “spirit and element, inseparably connected,” able to receive a “fulness of joy;” (D&C 93:33-34) for that which has a beginning will in turn have an end (see TPJS 354).

Now the question--is "intelligence" the same thing as "intelligences"? Absolutely not. And if anyone can find more reliable sources than what I have produced, please make them known.

To finish this discussion, it is important to note that all of the creative accounts which we have been given are limited to a description of the physical creation alone. We have no revealed account of the spirit creation (see Mormon Doctrine “Creation” 170, Doctrines of Salvation 75-76). What we do know is that God “created all things spiritually before they were naturally upon the face of the earth.” (Moses 3:5, 7) We are also told that “that which is spiritual [is] in the likeness of that which is temporal: and that which is temporal, is in the likeness of that which is spiritual: the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature, which God has created.” (D&C 77:2) From these scriptures, we know that all life was created in spirit before it was created in physical form here on earth, and that the spirit form looked like the physical form it is given here. We also learn that if we have a clear understanding of the truth concerning the physical creation, we can come to understand of the spirit creation as well—for “that which is spiritual [is] in the likeness of that which is temporal.” Knowing this, we should focus on understanding the physical creation as revealed to man through the prophets of God.

As for the physical creation, from what is man created? The dust of the earth. All of our bodies are created from the dust of the earth--eternal temporal elements which never had a beginning, nor will they have an end. But, there was a beginning to our physical bodies. For each of us it started in the womb of our respective earthly mothers. Though the element is eternal, never created nor destroyed, there is a defined moment when that element organized into a physical body.

So, why should we think the spiritual creation is any different? Why should we assume that "that which is spiritual" is not "in the likeness of that which is temporal"? Does it make rational sense to speculate any other way using the unified priesthood body statements and cannonized scripture as our guide? Did our physical body have some type of pre-organized state which acted as a precursor form which implanted itself into the womb? NO! All matter is completely disorganized in the digestive tract of the mother, and then organized in the womb. So, why would we hold to some notion that we existed in some type of pre-spirit-child organism that somehow had agency (as supposed in the question)? Its preposterous IMO and defies scripture and the words of the prophets.

While scripture is silent as to the spirital creation, it has given us the key to understand it--the physical creation. And to understand the physical creation, one must come to believe what the unified first presidency has declared in "the origin of man" document.

[aliasgeorge]

As pointed out earlier, the Skousen talk titled "The Atonement" (and chronicled in the back of "The Fourth Thousand Years") has a very intriguing approach to this all. And it was taught to him by Apostle John Widtsoe. He indicates that the intelligences stand independent of God, but that through God's perfectness, they honor His wishes. Thus, Christ working miracles was a matter of commanding those genes, cells, molecules, etc to get back to doing what they were supposed to be doing all along... Certainly interesting to ponder...

I'm glad this reference is in here. This is the man who has propogated the idea that intelligence is matter with some type of agency. He claims that JOhn Widtsoe taught it to him. Did John Widtsoe teach it to anybody else? Bruce R. McConkie taught me that this concept that God is subject to a higher power was absolutely not true. So which second hand account of an apostles teachings do you want to believe? God reigns supreme over all. He is not subject to any higher power. Intelligence, the matter from which we are created, does not hold God accountable for his actions. God is not subject to anything. He reigns supreme. He is the lawgiver. Everything is subject to Him. He is not subject to anything or anyone. Though I imagine Skousen is very well meaning in his works on this subject, this whole concept he has propogated is preposterous and defies many truths of the gospel.

Edited December 28, 2008 by aliasgeorge