The Power Of A Witness

[Ray]

I thought about coming up with a really big statement about the power of a witness, but I think I’d rather allow this thread to take on a voice of it’s own.

I’ll start it out with a few thoughts, though.

Most of us have heard a question asking:

Does a tree falling in the woods make a sound if there is nobody around to hear it?

How about modifying that question to ask:

Does a tree fall in the woods if nobody is around to see it?

In other words, do we believe trees are falling in the woods if we don’t see them?

If so, how do we know?

Are you considering the people who have never been in the woods? How do they know?

Any ideas?

And btw, I'm focusing on the idea of Faith, which is a gospel topic.

[Guest curvette]

How do you know the tree fell there? Maybe it just grew that way. Or maybe somebody yanked it up from it's roots in another part of the forest, cleverly hid the hole, and transported it to that part of the forest, dug a hole matching the exact dimensions of the roots just to trick you and test your faith that it actually fell there!

[Ray]

Originally posted by curvette@Nov 17 2004, 01:29 PM

How do you know the tree fell there? Maybe it just grew that way. Or maybe somebody yanked it up from it's roots in another part of the forest, cleverly hid the hole, and transported it to that part of the forest, dug a hole matching the exact dimensions of the roots just to trick you and test your faith that it actually fell there!

Yes, exactly, how do you know?

[Guest curvette]

You can't!

[Ray]

Originally posted by curvette@Nov 17 2004, 02:05 PM

You can't!

Heh, are you saying that you, personally, can't know that trees are falling in the woods without being able to see them?

Or are you saying that you, generically, can't know that trees are fallling in the woods without being able to see them?

Surely you aren't saying that I can't know that trees are falling in the woods even though I can't see them. Or are you?

[Setheus]

Originally posted by curvette@Nov 17 2004, 01:29 PM

How do you know the tree fell there? Maybe it just grew that way. Or maybe somebody yanked it up from it's roots in another part of the forest, cleverly hid the hole, and transported it to that part of the forest, dug a hole matching the exact dimensions of the roots just to trick you and test your faith that it actually fell there!

Sure you could tell. If someone did what you describe you could tell by the un-natural markings left behind. If someone dug it up there would be tale tale signs on the roots of near by trees and the soil would be less packed than the surrounding soil. Also there would be clear drag marks or tracks from where the tree was moved. The smell of carbon monoxcide would be in the air from the heavy equipment needed for such a task. Also if the tree DID fall there, the other near by trees would have broken branches and parts of the fallen tree in their branches. (good sign if the trees are different species). The list is endless

[Ray]

Originally posted by Setheus+Nov 17 2004, 02:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Setheus @ Nov 17 2004, 02:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Nov 17 2004, 01:29 PM

How do you know the tree fell there?  Maybe it just grew that way.  Or maybe somebody yanked it up from it's roots in another part of the forest, cleverly hid the hole, and transported it to that part of the forest, dug a hole matching the exact dimensions of the roots just to trick you and test your faith that it actually fell there!

Sure you could tell. If someone did what you describe you could tell by the un-natural markings left behind. If someone dug it up there would be tale tale signs on the roots of near by trees and the soil would be less packed than the surrounding soil. Also there would be clear drag marks or tracks from where the tree was moved. The smell of carbon monoxcide would be in the air from the heavy equipment needed for such a task. Also if the tree DID fall there, the other near by trees would have broken branches and parts of the fallen tree in their branches. (good sign if the trees are different species). The list is endless

So you’re saying that you, personally, would be able to know that trees have fallen in the woods by looking for signs or indications that usually accompany trees that fall in the woods?

But what about people who don't know those signs and indications?

Or what about people who might be going around trying to deceive you and other people into believing that trees have fallen in the woods, providing signs and indications generally accepted as signs and indications that trees have fallen in thw woods, according to the witness of so-called experts who say they know what happens when trees fall in the woods?

In other words, if you have never seen trees fall in the woods, how would you know that trees fall in the woods?

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Setheus@Nov 17 2004, 02:22 PM

Sure you could tell. If someone did what you describe you could tell by the un-natural markings left behind. If someone dug it up there would be tale tale signs on the roots of near by trees and the soil would be less packed than the surrounding soil. Also there would be clear drag marks or tracks from where the tree was moved. The smell of carbon monoxcide would be in the air from the heavy equipment needed for such a task. Also if the tree DID fall there, the other near by trees would have broken branches and parts of the fallen tree in their branches. (good sign if the trees are different species). The list is endless

If a person goes to such great lengths to fool you, do you really think they'd be stupid enough to not hide or alter the evidence of their hoax? If a person doesn't look close enough, and examine all the evidence, they could err.

[Ray]

Originally posted by curvette+Nov 17 2004, 03:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Nov 17 2004, 03:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Setheus@Nov 17 2004, 02:22 PM

Sure you could tell.  If someone did what you describe you could tell by the un-natural markings left behind.  If someone dug it up there would be tale tale signs on the roots of near by trees and the soil would be less packed than the surrounding soil.  Also there would be clear drag marks or tracks from where the tree was moved.  The smell of carbon monoxcide would be in the air from the heavy equipment needed for such a task.  Also if the tree DID fall there, the other near by trees would have broken branches and parts of the fallen tree in their branches.  (good sign if the trees are different species).  The list is endless

If a person goes to such great lengths to fool you, do you really think they'd be stupid enough to not hide or alter the evidence of their hoax? If a person doesn't look close enough, and examine all the evidence, they could err.

So are you saying that it is possible to know that trees fall in the woods by looking close enough and examing all of the evidence left by a tree that has fallen? But even if you have evidence that one tree has fallen in the woods, how do you know that other trees fall in the woods? Does evidence that one tree has fallen in the woods without you seeing it mean that all trees fall in the woods without you seeing them?

I'd really like an answer to my question, please:

How does anyone know that trees fall in the woods without seeing trees fall in the woods?

[Jenda]

Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jenda@Nov 17 2004, 05:21 PM

Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Great answer, but would you please apply it to the subject at hand? :)

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Ray+Nov 17 2004, 05:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Nov 17 2004, 05:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Nov 17 2004, 05:21 PM

Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Great answer, but would you please apply it to the subject at hand? :)

I thought it was obvious. It's not?

[Traveler]

The question is - What is real; what is precieved or what is? This takes another turn under the theory of quantum mechanics, which implies that any observation alters reality. But if there is no observation how can reality be known. If there is an observation there is also a human effort to relate to something that is thought or believed to be understood. The circle here is comes back to one important point. What can be observed and known and understood in order that we build the knowledge to understand what we do observe?

The Traveler

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jenda+Nov 17 2004, 05:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Nov 17 2004, 05:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 17 2004, 05:23 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Nov 17 2004, 05:21 PM

Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Great answer, but would you please apply it to the subject at hand? :)

I thought it was obvious. It's not?

There are some of us in this world who may glance at this thread who may not understand what you meant by that unless you spell it out for them, so I am asking you to please specify exactly what you are saying.

I could try to do that for you, but I'd rather know what you were trying to say instead of assuming that I know what you meant.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Traveler@Nov 17 2004, 05:25 PM

The question is - What is real; what is precieved or what is? This takes another turn under the theory of quantum mechanics, which implies that any observation alters reality. But if there is no observation how can reality be known. If there is an observation there is also a human effort to relate to something that is thought or believed to be understood. The circle here is comes back to one important point. What can be observed and known and understood in order that we build the knowledge to understand what we do observe?

The Traveler

Heh, yah, right.

So how do you know whether or not trees are falling in the woods without seeing them?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Ray+Nov 17 2004, 05:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Nov 17 2004, 05:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Nov 17 2004, 05:21 PM

Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Great answer, but would you please apply it to the subject at hand? :)

Faith, being the evidence of things not seen, is the greatest witness there is.

Christ said, "Blessed are they who shall believe on me; and again, more blessed are they who shall believe on your words, when ye shall testify that ye have seen me and that I am." Matthew 5:3

Those who know the truth are blessed, but those who believe without knowing are those whose faith is greatest. And those with the greatest faith, because of their dedication to something that they don't "know" will be the greatest witnesses.

I'm really not sure where I'm going with this, but it started off good.

The Lectures on Faith (the "Doctrine" part of the D&C which was removed) has an excellent section on faith.

http://www.centerplace.org/hs/dc/lec-001.htm

[Lec 1:9] From this we learn that faith is the assurance which men have of the existence of things which they have not seen, and the principle of action in all intelligent beings.

[Ray]

I believe we can come to know the truth of all things through Faith, and when I have more time I'll try to find some more scriptural references for you.

But to try to say this simply:

Faith is an assurance from God that something is true, and once we are sure that God has assured us of something, we can know that what we have been assured of is true as long as we trust and have confidence in the one who gave us that assurance.

Or in other words, by knowing that God cannot lie, and that God has in fact assured me that something is true, I can know the truth of all things I have received through Faith, or God's assurance.

Or in other words, I can say that I know that trees fall in the woods, even though I can't see them, and the way I know that is through Faith.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 17 2004, 05:53 PM

Or in other words, I can say that I know that trees fall in the woods, even though I can't see them, and the way I know that is through Faith.

What a revolutionary and original thought...

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 17 2004, 11:22 AM

In other words, do we believe trees are falling in the woods if we don’t see them?

If so, how do we know?

I think we know by virtue of not being complete morons Ray.

[Snow]

I'm sorry, when I said "complete morons" I should have clarified complete and utter morons.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 17 2004, 05:53 PM

Or in other words, I can say that I know that trees fall in the woods, even though I can't see them, and the way I know that is through Faith.

Uh, no.

We know how trees lying on the ground got that way. It is not a matter of speculation. We can test it and prove that they got that way by falling. It is predictable, testable, reproducible. It has nothing to do with faith and everything to do with experience, science, reason and "the known or knowable."

Better to save your "faith" for something that is unknown.

[speedomansam]

i've never seen giraffes mate, but i don't need to have faith to know that's how baby giraffes come to be. that's just how things work.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Snow+Nov 17 2004, 07:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Nov 17 2004, 07:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 17 2004, 05:53 PM

Or in other words, I can say that I know that trees fall in the woods, even though I can't see them, and the way I know that is through Faith.

Uh, no.

We know how trees lying on the ground got that way. It is not a matter of speculation. We can test it and prove that they got that way by falling. It is predictable, testable, reproducible. It has nothing to do with faith and everything to do with experience, science, reason and "the known or knowable."

Better to save your "faith" for something that is unknown.

I don't think you're stopping to think that I may never have seen any tree fall in the woods, which in fact I haven't. So yes, the way that I know that trees fall in the woods is through Faith.

Btw, do you really call people "complete and utter morons" if they can't claim to know about something they have never seen, or do you talk like that only because you're talking to people on the internet?

[Blessed]

Originally posted by speedomansam@Nov 17 2004, 10:53 PM

i've never seen giraffes mate, but i don't need to have faith to know that's how baby giraffes come to be. that's just how things work.

ROFLOL!!! That was good!

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 18 2004, 12:14 PM

Btw, do you really call people "complete and utter morons" if they can't claim to know about something they have never seen, or do you talk like that only because you're talking to people on the internet?

I didn't get that out of what Snow said. I think he was saying that even a complete and utter moron would know that trees fall in the woods. That doesn't take faith.

I know the point you were trying to make about the tree and faith, etc. But it really wasn't a very good example. I know that trees fall in the woods because that's what trees do over time. It's common sense. It's not something I have faith in, like I have faith in God.