Don't Hate Me (LDS turned Christian Protestant)

[ErikJohnson]

I really can't do that, Erik. If you aren't the same person, someone out there is using your profile pic to argue against Mormonism. In fact, I confirmed on Facebook before I made this posting that I wasn't making a mistake. It wasn't similar. It was, in fact, the exact same pic. That person used spurious logic, ignored everything that disagreed with him and then made ad hominem attacks when people pointed that out. At that point, when I informed the person using your profile pic that I would not pay any attention to any arguments he used, this person sent me an email - Which had this profile pic attached to it - And had a page and a half of something, but I'm not sure what it said because i had relegated him to someone I could safely ignore.

Most people here know that I have a tremendous amount of patience with other viewpoints. In fact, some of those I respect most (Like PrisonChaplain) are non-LDS members. However, if what you're saying is true, you might want to surf Facebook and find the person using your exact profile pic and get them to stop.

FunkyTown--

I promise you I've never posted on any LDS Facebook forums. And I've never sent you an email on any subject. I only opened an account there about 4 months ago, although I do use the same picture. So I'm completely astounded by your claim that my picture (yes, that's really me, although it's a couple years old) and name are being used for this purpose. I'll try to find "Ask a Mormon" to confirm this. The only other place I've used that picture, besides here, is Linkedin.

I understand your skepticism. I'm having trouble believing this myself. If someone has done this to deliberately discredit me, it sounds like they've been extremely effective. Any links or additional information you could provide to me (via private message) would be sincerely appreciated.

--Erik

Edited to say that I just scrolled through 34 pages of Erik Johnson's on Facebook, and I don't see anyone else using my profile picture. I also found that searching on "Ask a Mormon" produces multiple listings on Facebook, and each listing appears to have multiple discussions. I took a quick look at a few of them--but I suspect finding the ones you're referring to would be a bit like finding a needle in a haystack. It's probably time to update my picture anyhow (although I like that one because I've added a bit of weight lately).

If anyone else has seen my picture active on Mormon discussion boards (aside from the Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board)--please let me know. This is really, truly wierd.

Edited January 13, 2009 by ErikJohnson

[prisonchaplain]

There is something that puzzles me about a belief in a Trinity.

Who was Jesus talking to on the cross when he said "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

applepansy

The short answer is: his father. Trinitarians believe that the three persons of the Godhead are distinct in their personality, but not in their essence. While all three are God, the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit.

[jolee65]

I dont think religion is supposed to be that complicated , I think thats why I have only joined one church and it was as if I had known it all my life, as I read The Book of Mormon and learned of the set up of the church it all seemed very familar to me and my soul was craving more.

[prisonchaplain]

IMHO, the Trinity, the LDS Godhead, the modalism of Oneness Pentecostals or "Jesus Only-ism," and even the Subordinationism (Jesus is a god, but not the God) of the Jehovah's Witnesses are all easy to understand on a surface level. All of them can become complicated when explaining the beliefs to critics. If you read some threads here about the LDS Godhead, for example, you'll find that what seems so clear and natural becomes less so. For example, is the teaching monotheistic? Henotheistic? Polytheistic?

My only point is that the alleged complexity or simplicity of a teaching does little to inform me of its accuracy. Further, that we find it difficult to wrap our minds around God's nature is not surprising to me? After all, his ways are not our ways, and He is not who we are? The creator naturally knows more about us than we do about him.

[AngelLynn]

IMHO, the Trinity, the LDS Godhead, the modalism of Oneness Pentecostals or "Jesus Only-ism," and even the Subordinationism (Jesus is a god, but not the God) of the Jehovah's Witnesses are all easy to understand on a surface level. All of them can become complicated when explaining the beliefs to critics. If you read some threads here about the LDS Godhead, for example, you'll find that what seems so clear and natural becomes less so. For example, is the teaching monotheistic? Henotheistic? Polytheistic?

My only point is that the alleged complexity or simplicity of a teaching does little to inform me of its accuracy. Further, that we find it difficult to wrap our minds around God's nature is not surprising to me? After all, his ways are not our ways, and He is not who we are? The creator naturally knows more about us than we do about him.

I agree wholeheartedly PC, the concept of the Godhead once you put bounderies and definations on God becomes confusing as well as complex.

[captainmoroni1265]

Apple? Don't get in to a debate with Erik. He's been on Facebook in various LDS groups(Including Ask a Mormon), as well as several other sites that I've frequented. His purpose is always to proselyte and he gets genuinely angry if he feels the argument isn't going his way. Many months ago, I promised I wouldn't read anything he put and I still don't read any of his arguments. I would recommend not entering in to a debate with him.

I've had conversations with Erik before, also. You should see the emails he sent me when I didn't agree with his philosophizing. He comes on with "don't hate me," then he spews all sorts of hate filled invective upon anyone who disagrees with him. No matter how he tries to present himself, he only has one goal in mind -- to tell Mormons how wrong he thinks they are.

"Don't hate me because I'm not Mormon" is a very common anti-mormon technique of flame-bait. It's been around since Cain almost. Don't fall for that line.

(I fully expect critics now to answer this post with accusations of how much they thingk I'm a "hater." On the contrary! I love TRUE Christians who are tolerant of other faiths, and I mean truly tolerant, without an act. However, I don't have time for professional critics who sell books and movies that play upon public ignorance and fears about The Church.)

[georgia2]

I've had conversations with Erik before, also. You should see the emails he sent me when I didn't agree with his philosophizing. He comes on with "don't hate me," then he spews all sorts of hate filled invective upon anyone who disagrees with him. No matter how he tries to present himself, he only has one goal in mind -- to tell Mormons how wrong he thinks they are.

"Don't hate me because I'm not Mormon" is a very common anti-mormon technique of flame-bait. It's been around since Cain almost. Don't fall for that line.

(I fully expect critics now to answer this post with accusations of how much they thingk I'm a "hater." On the contrary! I love TRUE Christians who are tolerant of other faiths, and I mean truly tolerant, without an act. However, I don't have time for professional critics who sell books and movies that play upon public ignorance and fears about The Church.)

Totally agree.

I saw through it when he said we weren't Christians.

Then came back acting like he was mister nice guy.

won't he be surprised one day?

[Teancum18]

Hey buddy, welcome to the site. Things can get pretty heated around here sometimes, but just remember that it is nothing personal. It is just because of the delicate, personal nature of things being discussed.

[AngelLynn]

Totally agree.

I saw through it when he said we weren't Christians.

Then came back acting like he was mister nice guy.

won't he be surprised one day?

That's a good way to get on people's nerves espically here. Oh by the way the religion you are in never mind the fact that you mention Jesus in your official title, you're not Christian. I was/am a bit skeptical but I am nice anyway regardless.

[MormonMema]

Who are you to say who's Christian and who isn't? Latter-day Saints ARE Christians. Read the Book of Mormon before you say we aren't Christian. That precious book of scripture has a whole lot to say about Jesus Christ, his mission, his atonement and his resurrection. The main purpose of the Book of Mormon is to convince the whole world, "Jew and Gentile, that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations...." In the words of a truly great prophet, Nephi, in the Book of Mormon: "We talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ..." Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:26. If that doesn't make us Christian, in the eyes of mainstream Christians, I don't know what will. We will never be mainstream, creedal Christians, and we don't want to be, if that requires us to give up our latter-day scriptures, our teachings, our prophets and apostles, and the unique blessings we have as Latter-day Saints. Yet, we ARE Christians. Nothing you say or think can change that.

[georgia2]

Amen Sista Mema!

Anyone who says Latter Day Saints aren't Christians haven't done their homework!

[ErikJohnson]

I've had conversations with Erik before, also. You should see the emails he sent me when I didn't agree with his philosophizing. He comes on with "don't hate me," then he spews all sorts of hate filled invective upon anyone who disagrees with him. No matter how he tries to present himself, he only has one goal in mind -- to tell Mormons how wrong he thinks they are.

"Don't hate me because I'm not Mormon" is a very common anti-mormon technique of flame-bait. It's been around since Cain almost. Don't fall for that line.

(I fully expect critics now to answer this post with accusations of how much they thingk I'm a "hater." On the contrary! I love TRUE Christians who are tolerant of other faiths, and I mean truly tolerant, without an act. However, I don't have time for professional critics who sell books and movies that play upon public ignorance and fears about The Church.)

Hi captainmoroni1265--

I don't know who you are, but I know you've never received any emails from me. I'm a working professional (CPA) in Seattle and I can assure you and everyone else on the board that I'm not in the habit of composing emails to strangers. I know there are other Erik/Eric Johnson's out there, including one who apparently works for a Christian apologetics ministry (CARM). Perhaps that is the source of your confusion.

I'll ask you (just as I asked FunkyTown) to back up your allegations. He has not done so, but perhaps you will make some attempt. It's completely unfair to make disparaging, personal allegations against a fellow member of the forum and then not substantiate your claims when asked to do so.

So please post a link to whatever it is you attribute to me. As I told FunkyTown, the only other site I posted on was the Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board MA&DB, and that was some months ago. You'll find me nowhere else, as I have neither the time nor the interest.

If you're uncomfortable doing it here--then please send me a private message.

--Erik

Edited January 15, 2009 by ErikJohnson

[jimuk]

Amen Sista Mema!

Anyone who says Latter Day Saints aren't Christians haven't done their homework!

Hi Georgia, we are true Christians, we are not what the rest of the world class as Christians.

We Christians are they that were Christians before some guys came together to decide on what a Christian would be.

So worry not what the rest of the world say you are, you know and our father in heaven knows, this is what matters.

[Guest ceeboo]

We Christians are they that were Christians before some guys came together to decide on what a Christian would be.

.

:lol::lol::lol:

Peace,

Ceeeeeeebooooo

[pam]

What's interesting is....how many are greeting Erik as if a new member of the site, when in fact he's been a member for almost a year and has posted numerous posts already.

[Maureen]

What's interesting is....how many are greeting Erik as if a new member of the site, when in fact he's been a member for almost a year and has posted numerous posts already.

I quess 58 is numerous but nothing to get too excited about. I would guess that Erik joined the board and posted before he officially introduced himself.

[applepansy]

IMHO, the Trinity, the LDS Godhead, the modalism of Oneness Pentecostals or "Jesus Only-ism," and even the Subordinationism (Jesus is a god, but not the God) of the Jehovah's Witnesses are all easy to understand on a surface level. All of them can become complicated when explaining the beliefs to critics. If you read some threads here about the LDS Godhead, for example, you'll find that what seems so clear and natural becomes less so. For example, is the teaching monotheistic? Henotheistic? Polytheistic?

My only point is that the alleged complexity or simplicity of a teaching does little to inform me of its accuracy. Further, that we find it difficult to wrap our minds around God's nature is not surprising to me? After all, his ways are not our ways, and He is not who we are? The creator naturally knows more about us than we do about him.

I agree to a point. Things of the spirit are only as complicated as we make them. I know from personal experience that if I seek to know my Heavenly Father, He will teach me who He is. The accuracy of the teachings about the nature of God can only be answered by one source, which is God Himself.

What I know is that God is my literal Father in Heaven, the Father of my Spirit. I have felt his loving arms around me at difficult times in my life when I've gone to him in prayer.

Knowing what I know, it is difficult for me to understand a contrary viewpoint to the nature of God. I want to understand how others feel and what they believe, but I have felt Heavenly Father and Christ in my life as separate beings with bodies of flesh and bone. I have witnessed the influence of the Holy Ghost in my life and on one occassion felt him leave me as I walked into another faith's church for the funeral of a friend's mother.

No matter how hard I try, I just can't wrap my head around these other viewpoints.

Thank you prisonchaplain for trying to explain.

applepansy

[ErikJohnson]

I quess 58 is numerous but nothing to get too excited about. I would guess that Erik joined the board and posted before he officially introduced himself.

You got it, Maureen. It was on the "Denominations" thread in the Christian Beliefs forum that I realized I needed to share my background so that folks would have some perspective on where I'm coming from.

Should have done it sooner.

And I'm glad to see some folks continue to engage, despite FunkyTown and captainmoroni1265's allegations.

--Erik

[Guest ceeboo]

Hi Erik,

Welcome to the site, hope you like it here!!!

:lol:

:lol:

( Sorry, could not resist )

Ceeboo

[Wysinger]

Maybe this is a time where I should keep quiet however I know Erik. I know Erik from another web site where he gets his kicks from starting controversy. Erik is a troll, I should have posted this before. He manages to get everyone into discussions that are meaningless to him. Erik has a lot of time on his hands and has managed to get banned from the site where I met him. It seems weird that he would pop up here but please don't be drawn into his web of meaningless banter.

If necessary I will cut and paste previous post from another site and you all can make the call.

I am 100% sure this is the same guy, especially when I noticed he is from Seattle.

[Faded]

1.) You were born and raised in the church.

2.) You did not serve a mission and sounds like you were less active in Church attendance for an extended period of time.

3.) Never got confirmation from the Spirit that the Book of Mormon is true despite repeatedly re-reading it.

4.) You studied the New Testament and Old Testament in depth.

5.) Eventually concluded that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints is false -- and/or not for you.

6.) You feel you have received spiritual confirmation that this is the correct path for you.

7.) You now have a new and more complete life as a member of the Reformed Baptist Church.

Okay, everyone here can respect that. There are a LOT of people here, myself included, that have exactly the opposite life experience. I was raised to respect and be open to other viewpoints. I was raised in the Church, but more in the Mission-Field where Latter-Day Saints are in the minority. I've gone out of my way on a number of occasions to study and learn more about other faiths. I love learning about all religions and viewpoints. I love studying scripture in great depth whenever the opportunity arises.

My experience? I've yet to feel anything as complete and spiritually fulfilling to me as the LDS church. I have received a spiritual witness of all of it. I can feel the truthfulness of it resonate within me powerfully. All of it. Every other faith felt hollow, like it was missing something. There was good things, but it just didn't feel right. Like I said, my experience was just a lot different.

So my suggestion? As long as you can be respectful of where I'm coming from and where everyone else is coming from, then we'll get along fine.

My own sad experience has been that every other Christian Religion seems to want to attack me and other LDS for our beliefs. Some want to save us from our false religion. Some want to demonize us. Very few of the other Christian faiths seem to want to play nice. It's been that way ever since Joseph Smith told a minister he trusted about his first vision. All of Christianity, especially the Protestant faiths haven't given us a moment's peace since then.

So as long as do not have any intentions along those lines, then welcome to the forums. You've been here longer than me anyways.

[ErikJohnson]

Maybe this is a time where I should keep quiet however I know Erik. I know Erik from another web site where he gets his kicks from starting controversy. Erik is a troll, I should have posted this before. He manages to get everyone into discussions that are meaningless to him. Erik has a lot of time on his hands and has managed to get banned from the site where I met him. It seems weird that he would pop up here but please don't be drawn into his web of meaningless banter.

If necessary I will cut and paste previous post from another site and you all can make the call.

I am 100% sure this is the same guy, especially when I noticed he is from Seattle.

You have the advantage, Wysinger, because I don't know you. But judging from your photo--you look like a stand-up guy. We're probably about the same age, and we both have a kid. I regret if I've caused you any personal offense previously.

But first off, let me commend you, Wysinger. Unlike FunkyTown and captainmoroni1265 who claimed I sent them emails, posted on Facebook LDS groups, "Ask a Mormon," etc. and then refused to either substantiate their claims or to own their mistakes--you seem to have referred to an actual event, my posts on the Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board MA&DB. Believe it or not, that's real progress! I'm an open book, and have made no effort to conceal my past life on MA&DB (another poster here recognized me in one of my first posts on the board). That said, I’m still amazed (and a bit exasperated) that FunkyTown & captainmoroni felt the need for such wild embellishment.

However, a couple of your characterizations were off the mark (even if Pam and applepansy appreciated them), so kindly permit me to correct the record.

First off, I don't have a lot of time on my hands. I've averaged about 2 posts/week here since I signed up and ~ 3/week on the old MA&DB that I used to post on. That's actually very, very light compared to most of the posters on these boards. If you review the record, I'm sure you'll agree with me.

Second, none of the discussions I’ve entered into were meaningless to me. I don't know how you could read my opening post and think I was some academic or clinician, detached from it all. As I’ve said before, LDS forums enable me to get responses to questions no one was willing to answer back in the days when I was LDS. And I'm still interested in those responses, and I continue to engage with old LDS friends and acquaintances (and have even had a couple of them visit my Mars Hill Church Bible study/community group, one of whom has come several times). Just because I may not have time to compose a reply to every single post on one of my threads doesn't mean I don't read and consider them all.

But no doubt you’ve got everyone here wondering about my posts on MA&DB. And it’s a lot of effort for them to satisfy that curiosity (you can’t use their search function unless you create an account). So to save everyone the trouble and to once again demonstrate that I’m an open book—here is the direct link: Good Friday - Mormon Apologetics & Discussion Board

I have great confidence in the majority of the members here to reach their own conclusions and decide for themselves. I use my own name and photo, and if and when I make errors in my posts—you will find that I, unlike some here, am quick to own my mistakes and make amends. Hopefully you'll come to appreciate my presence here on the board.

--Erik

[prisonchaplain]

IMHO, until Erik, who has nearly 60 posts here, does something untoward, I'm not sure why the shrillness. If there are violations of TOS, report (for all posters). If you wish to ignore, ignore. But lofting these "Don't listen to poster-X" bombs comes somewhat close to personal attacks.

[jolee65]

Hi Loudmouth_Mormon—

Regarding the previous thread you linked, that described an encounter my wife had with the LDS missionaries. I posted it because I was interested in an LDS response to the encounter, and I appreciated the responses I received. But the part about my showing up in an LDS service to critique a Gospel Doctrine class was purely hypothetical—I never had any such intent.

Regarding your comment that I can “start as many introduction threads as like”—let me assure you this will be my one and only introduction on the forum. I post under my own name, with my real picture, and I don’t do sock-puppets. What you see is what you get.

Regarding the purpose of this venue and whether it is appropriate to offer a critique of someone else’s beliefs—I’ve observed this site contains a “Christian Beliefs” forum for Christians (regardless of whether they have an LDS background) to dialogue with Mormons. I see nothing that limits the forum to “Christians” who are open-minded or seeking alternatives to doctrines like the Trinity, ex-nihilo creation, and the infallibility of Scripture. And keep in mind a committed Christian is to “contend for the faith” (Jude 1:3), albeit with humility and respect. You wouldn’t disagree with that admonition—would you?

Any questions I post will always be honest, L_M. I’m honestly interested in how LDS explain issues and answer questions (especially tough ones). That doesn’t mean I can be open-minded about the Person and Work of Christ or how I’ve seen God work in my life. And to take it further—I don’t think anyone is really free to choose his/her beliefs (our beliefs are a function of our heredity and our experience—until God wills otherwise). So no one who comes to this board is truly open-minded, in my opinion.

And now I’ll answer your first question—what do I hope to gain? Let me make clear that I don’t hope to convert anyone. Only God can do that. But I much enjoy dialogue and debate (I used to be one of those misfits in high school on the debate team). And when I first began attending Mars Hill (before I became a Christian), I strongly desired to discuss the things I was learning with other LDS. But no one in my ward had the time or interest. (In fact, when I read my resignation letter to my Bishop explaining why I was leaving—his only feedback to me was that it was “well written.” Funny how he had no inclination whatever to engage me over the substance of anything I had written.) This venue gives me an opportunity to discuss Christian vs. LDS doctrine. And it’s also helpful to me as I continue to engage with LDS locally. I currently have an LDS member in my church small group/Bible Study that we do Tuesday nights from my home. And of course, should God choose to use me as a tool to bring someone else to Christ, well—how could I refuse?

;0)

Hopefully you’ll appreciate my candor and we can have some good discussions going forward. I’m looking forward to it.

Appreciate your questions, L_M

--Erik

Why would anyone argue with you about why your leaving the church, you have clearly made up your mind , that was respect dont be confused.

Also, im not sure why you would feel the need to prove yourself like you seem to do all over the net , rejoice in your decission, pray quietly and humblie for us sinners and be an example to everyone. Dont look like a Jim Jones .

Edited January 21, 2009 by jolee65

[babaproducer]

I'm brand new to this site, but I want to say that I hope you will feel welcome. I had rather the reverse happen to me. I was raised Methodist, and was looking for a college where I could feel comfortable living the values my parents taught to me. I visited campus after campus and was so discouraged when "student ambassadors" would tell me about buying notes, underage drinking and the like. The atmosphere at BYU was completely different. Then, when I was a freshman, I "knew" the Mormons were wrong, but I respected that they knew Why they believed and What they believed. I needed to know what exactly my faith was based on. I, too, went with a non-King James Bible and read through cover to cover in about six weeks time... I needed to have a firm foundation on my belief system...so I could find the right church for me. My testimony of the Bible grew tremendously during that time. A friend took me to the Manti pagent -- The actor playing Joseph Smith went out to the grove to pray based on his reading of the Bible, "If any of ye lack wisdom" At that moment, I knew I would someday be a member because I had the Bible so close to my heart and I knew that our kind Heavenly Father would NOT ALLOW Joseph to be deceived, because he lacked wisdom and asked with a sincere heart... and in the Bible, Heavenly Father promises to answer that prayer... No way would He go back on that promise, and therefore Joseph Smith could NOT have been fooled. That being the case, the rest is true -- period. I can't honestly say that I feel any stronger toward the Book of Mormon than I do the Bible. I can't honestly say that I've read every page and I understand every story (which is sad after 18 years) -- But I've never swayed from the fact that it MUST be true.