Rough Stone Rolling

[bytor2112]

I am about half way into Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman. For those that have read this book, did it strengthen your testimony? Hurt your testimony? Or no affect at all? Any surprises? How would you rate this book for accuracy?

I have mixed feelings about the book and the content. :)

Thanks- Bytor

[Mormonatalie]

timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/12/12q-on-rsr/ - 112k -

[Jenamarie]

I can't say that it directly effected my Testimony, but it did give me new perspective on the Prophet and the early days of the church. I had to accept at a deeper level that Prophets are flawed people who can and do make huge blunders, even while following the directions of the Lord (which is not a reflection on the Lord, just on a man's ability to follow His instructions when they allow other people and situations and opinions to influence their actions).

[candyprpl]

I'm about halfway through the book. I like the honesty of the book. It took me a long time to really have a testimony of Joseph Smith as a prophet. I never thought that a mortal man would need to be perfect to be a prophet -- we all know there has only been one mortal man that was perfect. Did the times and other religions have an affect on JS and what he prophesied? Yes, of course. Does that hurt my testimony that he was/is a prophet? No. The more my testimony of the Church grows -- the more blessings I receive from the restored priesthood -- the more miracles I see and hear about on an almost daily basis -- the more I know that he was/is a prophet of God.

I agree with Jenamarie -- it has given me a new perspective of the early days of the church and of JS. I'm enjoying this new prespective.

[rockwoodchev]

I have read most of the book. I've also read No Man Knows My History

I like Bushman but he tends to gloss over some things. For me it was a open discussion of things that have been covered up and whitewashed by the church. We simply don't talk about these things anywhere. 95% of church members don't know that Joseph practiced Polygamy, that he kept it hidden from the public, the church members, and his wife for several years. They don't know that he practiced polyandry and married several girls who were still in their teens. The Wives of Joseph Smith

One of my favorite stories from the book is about during Zions Camp where the Prophet and a member of the camp got into a fight about a dog. I can't remember the details, but Joseph ends up throwing the camp bugle at the guy. Made me laugh very hard.

I also think he has done a "ok" job showing the problems with the Book of Abraham. While Nibley has tried to discredit the docs found in the Met, it is hard to dispute the mere fact that the fragments shown in the BoA, have nothing at all to do with Abraham, but are merely funeral pics from Egypt. There is much better display of this at the wiki site which shows both an LDS as well as a non-LDS view.

Someone else wrote the following on another space on this site, I think.

In my opinion RSR is well written for both a general audience and a believing audience. The general audience can read it from one vantage point, as Bushman wrote it from a Karen Armstrong-like view of Mohammed. They don't have to be convinced to believe or not-believe. They read it as an interesting historical view from the vantage point of a believer. For the believing LDS person, it is an apologetic, not as bad as FAIR or FARMS, but still an apologetic. Bushman provides the arguments of plausibility on which apologetics are founded.

Apologists in general will say, "Think in gray, so long as it supports the position that the church is true." They are guilty of the "Pink Unicorn" argument. Effectively saying, "There is a giant pink unicorn that lives on the dark side of the moon. Since you cannot prove it does not exist, it means that it does. Therfore it is true that a giant pink unicorn lives of the dark side of the moon." Of course this is a fallacious argument, but one on which apologists lean heavily and for which believing members who want the church to be true easily fall.

Confirmation bias is a tough thing to self moderate, even if you understand it. For most people, they don't understand how they misinterpret data and information, leading to erroneous conclusions.

IMHO, I think the best thing you can do is to listen to the interviews that John Dehlin does with Bro. Bushman.

Library at StayLDS.com

[Guest ceeboo]

95% of church members don't know that Joseph practiced Polygamy, that he kept it hidden from the public, the church members, and his wife for several years. They don't know that he practiced polyandry and married several girls who were still in their teens. The Wives of Joseph Smith

Not being a member, I would be SHOCKED if 95% of LDS members do not know this.

Not arguing, just struck me as a VERY high percentage.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[bytor2112]

Not being a member, I would be SHOCKED if 95% of LDS members do not know this.

Not arguing, just struck me as a VERY high percentage.

Peace,

Ceeboo

Probably a bit of an exaggeration. But, definitely a high percentage is unaware that Joseph Smith was a polygamist. Most see the polygamist period as during Brigham Young's days as Prophet and beyond. I didn't know until about three years ago......

[Saguaro]

I recently finished RSR, I thought it was great, a little dry in some places as a detailed history can be, but very interesting and enlightening in other places.

There are so many things about Joseph Smith's life that we just gloss over or don't even talk about in Sunday School/RS/Priesthood (polygamy, polyandry, BofM translation using a seer stone in a hat, Book of Abraham, etc.) and this book isn't afraid to address those issues and still come out of it believing that JS is a prophet. We tend to expect perfection out of our general authorities but they are not perfect, and JS is no exception. He was the first prophet of the modern dispensation and he was learning and stumbling along the way as he learned and grew in his role.

I too would recommend listening to John Dehlin's interviews of Dr Bushman, he has a great insight and perspective on Joseph Smith and the gospel in general.

[Saguaro]

Regarding the 95% number, I don't know if it's that high but there are certainly people in the church who do not know that Joseph practiced polygamy, my wife was one of them. She was raised in the church, very active, attended seminary, did all the right things, but did not know until about 8 months ago that Joseph Smith practiced plural marriage, so she did some research and was shocked, it really rocked her testimony. I remember hearing something about it at one time, but never really gave it much thought or bothered to look into it.

Even if people do know about it, I would guess many don't know how and to what extent he practiced it. Details like marrying women who were already married, initially hiding it from Emma, marrying a girl as young as 14, claims of fathering children, etc. Those are things that we definately don't talk about at church, so people are only going to find out about them if they do independent research, and then they are often not prepared for what they find out. Rough Stone Rolling does a good job of addressing these and other issues.

[HiJolly]

Even if people do know about it, I would guess many don't know how and to what extent he practiced it. Details like marrying women who were already married, initially hiding it from Emma, marrying a girl as young as 14, claims of fathering children, etc. Those are things that we definately don't talk about at church, so people are only going to find out about them if they do independent research, and then they are often not prepared for what they find out. Rough Stone Rolling does a good job of addressing these and other issues.

I was fortunate to hear a lengthy presentation on this last year, from a DNA researcher and Grad student. His name is Ugo Perego and his presentation was called Joseph Smith's DNA Revealed: New Clues from the Prophet's Genes . It was really, really good.

He said that they have done the research on all but 3 or 4 of the claimed decendents of JSJr. and none except the children of Emma have come up positive for Joseph's DNA. Not even Josephina Lightener, who had been considered my many to be his physical daughter, due to the evidence. But no...

I loved the book. I think it is very accurate. I would have liked more material on the 'peep stone'/money digging pre-trial hearing, in the book.

The more I learn about Joseph, the more I love the man. What an inspiration.

HiJolly

[MarginOfError]

I was fortunate to hear a lengthy presentation on this last year, from a DNA researcher and Grad student. His name is Ugo Perego and his presentation was called Joseph Smith's DNA Revealed: New Clues from the Prophet's Genes . It was really, really good.

He said that they have done the research on all but 3 or 4 of the claimed decendents of JSJr. and none except the children of Emma have come up positive for Joseph's DNA. Not even Josephina Lightener, who had been considered my many to be his physical daughter, due to the evidence. But no...

I loved the book. I think it is very accurate. I would have liked more material on the 'peep stone'/money digging pre-trial hearing, in the book.

The more I learn about Joseph, the more I love the man. What an inspiration.

HiJolly

I've not read Rough Stone Rolling, but from reading History of the Church I was able to gather that Smith was a very arrogant, stubborn, and magnificently flawed man. I was often disappointed in his actions. Seeing the flaws actually increased my testimony of him as a prophet. He always got the doctrines right. He always got the principles right. He always got the intentions right. Sometimes his execution was poor. But every time I read the doctrines that he taught, I feel that they are true. Only a prophet could be that flawed and always teach true doctrine.

[Maya]

Here is the search of josephs DNA from "his kids" this is a few years a go. Sorry cant remember where I got this. I also listened to Ugo he is a great guy!

Josephine Lyon (Birth: February 8, 1844)

Mother: Sylvia Sessions Lyon

Father: Windsor Lyon

Zebulun Jacobs (Birth: January 2, 1842)

Mother: Zina Huntington Jacobs

Father: Henry Jacobs

George Algernon Lightner (Birth: March 22, 1842)

Mother: Mary Rollins Lightner

Father: Adam Lightner

Oliver Buell (Birth: 1838 – 39)

Mother: Presendia Huntington Buell

Father: Norman Buell

Orson Washington Hyde (Birth: November 9, 1843)

Mother: Marinda Johnson Hyde

Father: Orson Hyde

Frank Henry Hyde (Birth: January 23, 1845)

Mother: Marinda Johnson Hyde

Father: Orson Hyde

Moroni Pratt (Birth: December 7, 1844)

Mother: Mary Ann Frost

Father: Parley P. Pratt

John Reed Hancock (Birth: April 19, 1841)

Mother: Clarissa Reed Hancock

Father: Levi Hancock

Joseph Smith is NOT the father of Moroni Pratt.

Joseph Smith is NOT the father of Zebulon Jacobs.

Joseph Smith is NOT the father of Fanny Alger's claimed descendancy.

[HiJolly]

I've not read Rough Stone Rolling, but from reading History of the Church I was able to gather that Smith was a very arrogant, stubborn, and magnificently flawed man. I was often disappointed in his actions. Seeing the flaws actually increased my testimony of him as a prophet. He always got the doctrines right. He always got the principles right. He always got the intentions right. Sometimes his execution was poor. But every time I read the doctrines that he taught, I feel that they are true. Only a prophet could be that flawed and always teach true doctrine.

Not arrogant. Stubborn, yes. Flawed, yes. Never arrogant.

Perhaps 'defiant with attitude' would be a good word instead of arrogant. The statements he made that are seen by some as arrogant were not, IMO.

HiJolly

[bytor2112]

Not arrogant.......pridefully confident, maybe.

[MarginOfError]

No. Arrogant is definitely the word I would use. There were many moments where he thought he could do no wrong, and then would rationalize poor behavior when he was called on it. It took a awful lot to convince him to use the words, "I made a mistake." I'm pretty sure that counts as arrogance.

[Palerider]

I read the book and I thought it was awesome. I do not think he was arrogant. This book did not hurt my testimony at all. If anything I feel it helped to strengthen it even more. Joseph Smith was not perfect and indeed made mistakes. Wow, he was human....I know one thing, I could not have gone thru and served as he did in his calling. I now have the book titled Joseph Smith Papers in front of me. When I am finished reading this other book I have about Nauvoo then I am on to that book. I hope some of you will read the book Rough Stone Rolling.

One other series of Lectures that are awesome about the Prophet is the Truman Madsen lecture series.

[Moksha]

Not being a member, I would be SHOCKED if 95% of LDS members do not know this.

Not arguing, just struck me as a VERY high percentage.

Peace,

Ceeboo

We are a prophetic and sheltered people. But hey, look on the bright side - there is a lot to learn.

.

[rockwoodchev]

One of the things that Bushman mentions in his interview with Dehlin, but I'm not sure it is in the book itself, is how well done the Brodie work is. I have to agree with him after working my way through much of her book. Many people call it "Anti Mormon", but I don't really get that. It feels to me that any book written by a member of the church is "OK", but if the same material is written by a non/ex mo than it must be "Anti". I just have not found that to be the case.

Has anyone here read Fawn Brodie "No man knows my History"?

[Bookmeister]

Where do I find out more about the giant pink elephants?

[HiJolly]

One of the things that Bushman mentions in his interview with Dehlin, but I'm not sure it is in the book itself, is how well done the Brodie work is. I have to agree with him after working my way through much of her book. Many people call it "Anti Mormon", but I don't really get that. It feels to me that any book written by a member of the church is "OK", but if the same material is written by a non/ex mo than it must be "Anti". I just have not found that to be the case.

Has anyone here read Fawn Brodie "No man knows my History"?

Brodie was LDS. I think her 1st edition was better without all the psycho-stuff she added later. Reminds me of Michael Moore's Bush "documentary" on 9/11----- "What was Bush thinking? Was he thinking 'I need to get a haircut.'?" (sigh)

No doubt she is a good writer, though.

HiJolly

[Maya]

Where do I find out more about the giant pink elephants?

You mean the ones with light blue flowers on or the ones with light blue stripes?

[Maya]

Not being a member, I would be SHOCKED if 95% of LDS members do not know this.

Not arguing, just struck me as a VERY high percentage.

Peace,

Ceeboo

At least every active member in the northern countries know ... well we make probably 2 % of the 5 so.. actually, what can I say

[Palerider]

Where do I find out more about the giant pink elephants?

the same one that talks about how he swam the English Channel...

[Palerider]

I don't agree with the 95% and I think there are more that know about his poligamy than we know. I also think there are members in denial of it. I have been a member all my life and I was very rebellious as a teenager. My Dad was not active in church at all and we never had church teachings in our home. My Mom went to church every week and she usually dragged me by my ear. What I am trying to say is....I knew that Joseph Smith had more than one wife as teenager and I believe I got that from my Seminary class. I never payed attention in that class but for some reason I picked up on that....

[bytor2112]

The book hasn't hurt or helped my testimony. But, I must confess, I am a bit disturbed to learn about all of the bickering and accusations among early church leaders and what is up with all of the disciplinary councils????? The behavior seems very un-Christ like IMO. I was also surprised by all of the accounts of tongues and the "possession" by evil spirits.

The church grew despite the confusion and contention, I can only guess because of the Holy Ghost. That is why I am a member....without that and I wouldn't be a member of this or any church....probably.