Tough question 2

[Palerider]

Who was he talking to?

I was making a comment in regards to everyone.....anyone can throw a blanket comment out....be sure to have a source...or it could be deleted....

[whoknowswhat]

I don't believe the LDS history of Joseph having many wives.

There is a saying, "Time vindicates the Prophets." DNA also seems to vindicate the Prophets... of 12 families claiming lineage from Joseph outside of Emma and her children, the 5 tested so far have shown no relation to him.

Source?

[KristofferUmfrey]

Source?

Which one?

No multiple wives:

Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy

or DNA:

The Wives of Joseph Smith - FAQ's

Seems my 5 out of 12 number may be off. Let me look some more.

Edit: A more friendly site the mentions the results in the article...

MormonTimes - DNA shows Joseph Smith was Irish

Edit #2: Let me add just one more...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr.

Edited January 18, 2009 by KristofferUmfrey

[Angelao]

whoknowswhat - there have been two good sites posted you should check out, if you haven't already. The first is The Wives of Joseph Smith, which is a well researched compilation of the women Joseph Smith was married to in polygamy. The site owner is LDS.

The other is the Fair site, http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/polyandry.pdf, an independent organization that specializes in church apologetics. This article tries to explain and justify Joseph Smith's polygamous marriages, especially those to women already married.

You're not alone. I was born in the church, raised in Happy Valley, attended seminary faithfully, served a mission, and married in the temple. It wasn't until I was nearly 40 that I learned about Joseph Smith's polygamous marriages. You have to decide how to handle the information, and what it means to you compared to your testimony of the church and Joseph Smith.

I'm not a troll, by the way. I've lurked here for over a year. Although I'm no longer a member of the church, most of my family still is, and I occasionally read here to examine how my thought processes now differ from my family's. I'd never felt the need to sign up before, but I felt the pain behind your posts, and just wanted to let you know you're not alone in your confusion. It's a good question, one that doesn't have an easy answer.

Edited January 19, 2009 by Angelao
try to fix links

[HiJolly]

Joseph Smith married dozens of women & girls, some as young as 14. Most of these marriages were in secret, and many of them were to married women.

If you know of more than one that was 14 or younger, please let me know who. "some" would be misleading, otherwise. With that said, I agree with your statement.

Some would argue that the marriages were not conjugal, but personal statements of those involved seem to support that they were.

MANY would so argue. As far as I know, ALL of those statements you refer to are polemically motivated statements that should be questioned, since they were the result of attempts to convince the RLDS Church that Joseph was a polygamist. Eliza Snow's affidavit is a great example of this, IMO.

The real proof in my opinion is the DNA testing that has been ongoing for many years now. Not one child of these women has been shown to have Joseph's DNA. While the testing is not yet complete, is has been done for a majority. To me, that evidence is more convincing than biased polemics or circumstantial supposition (ie, they spent the night in the same room, therefore...) Add to the the idea that a "marriage" (therefore, a "wife") is not necessarily the same thing as a "sealing".

Joseph publicly denied having more than one wife, declaring it to be lies of William Law.

Yes, he did deny that.

I don't have a problem with polygamy in general, but secret deceptive (and often coercive) practices do not seem in keeping with a prophet of God.

"often"? I don't think so. In a few cases, 'coercive' could be the theme, though I can only think of two off the top of my head that might fit that word. Certainly not physically coercive, in any case.

This is not something that we are ever taught in the church.

Not true. Unless you mean "Sunday School", in which case I'd agree.

Sure, we know Brigham Young had 27 wives, and most of us are okay with that.

But it's not in the Teachings of the Presidents of the Church : Brigham Young manual. Are you okay with that? I am.

But why are these facts covered up? If there are answers to the accusations, why not openly give them instead of discouraging members to even find out?

First, I don't think they ARE covered up, and second, I don't think finding them is discouraged. There's simply not time in church to pursue these things, and if there were, that still doesn't mean it would be in alignment with the 3 missions of the Church. And we DO have purpose in what we do.

Emmanuel Kant said: "Many things can be true and yet harmful to man. Not all truth is useful." --Lectures on Logic, translated by J. Michael Young, p.43 I agree with Kant.

HiJolly

Edited January 19, 2009 by HiJolly

[Elphaba]

Please state your sources.Pam,

What he is saying is that Joseph would marry a woman who was currently civilly married to her husband. Joseph married 11 women who were civily married to their husbands at the time.

I'm just wondering if you understood what he was saying, as I thought this was common knowledge, especially on LDS boards.

While we're on the subject: I have a great deal of respect for Joseph, and find him endearing, witty, a man full of love, especially for his children and Emma.

However, this is the one area I have no respect for him at all. Joseph would approach a man to ask for his wife, which of course, caused great anguish for both of them. After they had agreed, Joseph told them it was just a test.

I find this inconscionable. These Saints had already proven their worth and merit. There was no reason to cause them more anguish than they'd already been through. The Kimballs were as true to Joseph as anyone; in fact, they later let their young daught, Helen Mar Kimball, be sealed to Joseph.

Here's an example of the issue:

Lis Conlon - Google Search

[Elphaba]

Please state your sources.Hi Pam,

What he is saying is that Joseph would marry a woman who was currently civilly married to her husband. Joseph married 11 women who were civily married to their husbands at the time.

I'm just wondering if you understood what he was saying, as I thought this was common knowledge, especially on LDS boards.

While we're on the subject: I have a great deal of respect for Joseph, and find him endearing, witty, a man full of love, especially for his children and Emma.

However, this is the one area I have no respect for him at all. Joseph would approach a man to ask for his wife, which of course, caused great anguish for both of them. After they had agreed, Joseph told them it was just a test.

I find this manipulative and mean. These Saints had already proven their worth and merit. There was no reason to cause them more anguish than they'd already been through. The Kimball’s were as true to Joseph as anyone; in fact, they later let their young daughter, Helen Mar Kimball, be sealed to Joseph.

I really do understand the trials of the early Saints were meant to weed out the weak, as the Church needed strong souls to thrive. And even I, as an ex-Mormon see that this did happen. The hardiest of souls, spirtual and physical, are the ones who made it to Utah.

But, I just can’t wrap my head around this one. This is from the article from FAIR:

In some cases, Joseph’s request for other men’s wives did not result in actual marriage. These cases are interesting to examine as a preface to studying these incidents where the requests resulted in actual marriage.

The “test” as it has been called, was a method to prove individual willingness to submit to the Lord’s will. It was a challenge to try, prove and develop a people for the trials that were ahead of them. Heber C. Kimball is one such example found on this proving ground of faith. Heber’s first introduction to the plural marriage system was when Joseph informed him that he wanted his wife for himself. Heber was devastated at such a request after all he had already suffered. He fasted and prayed for three days after which he apparently received spiritual direction. He took his wife, Vilate, to Joseph and presented her. Joseph wept at the act of “faith, devotion and obedience. It was never Joseph’s intention to take Heber’s wife. It was a trial that both had passed.

I thought Rough Stone Rolling gave an excellent explanation of Joseph and his plural wives, except for situations like thiis. I don't see it as loving at all. I see it as a man whose power has gone to his head, if only for a moment.

Elphaba

[Maya]

Once ther was a man in our meetiings (sunday school) he would with very high voice ask about plural marriage in the sunday school and as the teacher looked pretty suprised and said that we are not talking about that today, you`ll have to go talk with the bishop about it when he has time or someone elsa. He would not hear, he started about the coverstory... it was very difficult for him to understand that we would NOT change our sundayschool lesson to consist his problem!

Yes the scedule, curriculum in the church IS very tight... hardly ever the teacher has time to go through the lesson without leaving a lot out. Sometimes I wonder if ther eshould be a special class to those with such questions that are not included that years curriculum. Well the missionaries often do have an investigator class where theya re more free in discussing things, but not all of these things are suitable there either.

There are jus SO MANY things that have happened in the history of the church that you should study 5 years at least to be able to reach most of them before getting babtised. Stil the most important thing is the testimony. When you get the testimony you have strength to set the questions aside and trust the lord not quide you wrong.

I have never had diffuiculties with these "questions"... and I cant understand HOW someone CAN survive the schoolages without learning to know that mormons are polygamists! You really dont have that in school??

I heard so much weird things NOT only about church but my fellow humans! So many things that prove to be false, misunderstandings aso... that I dont believe anything, unless I see and hear myself. What ever a person says he/she has always a reason to say it, were it to make yourself more important in others eyes, to winn publicity or popylary to win people on your site..... even to keep away from the jail.

Some marriages have hardly ANY sex involved in it. In these plural marriage case questions there always is an evil hint of dirty sex. So where are Joseph Smiths kids with other women? Lookes like he was an able man, he had quite a few with Emma!

This and a couple of other questions should almost have a thread of their own, so we do not need to answer them every once in a while... It really is amazing how we are all the time accused of covering these things up. They never learn do they!!

[Maya]

"Joseph would approach a man to ask for his wife, which of course, caused great anguish for both of them. After they had agreed, Joseph told them it was just a test"

Yeah THAT I would call dirty!!! OK I am mad at him... 65 lashes with a wet macaroni! Some guys just... on an other tought maybe better not to write it here...

[Elgama]

For me there is one startling document missing - Emma's diary/journal, there is not one surviving today from what I have read of her. But I find it very hard to believe that a woman in the early 1800s with her level of education and being prompted of the Lord did not keep one. She was such a hardworking, organised woman my musing is where are they~? and why do we not have it? Everything about Emma is a woman who would have kept one.

It is the biggest hole in the historical record.

-Charley

[jolee65]

There's a far cry from "mortal man and not perfect" and "coercive adulterer". I'm not trying to be a troll here, I'm trying to find if there ARE any counter arguments, or if everyone has unanimously decided to get offended and defensive instead of discuss it.

My point is that I feel like the facts have been skewed or omitted for my entire life, and that nobody seems to have an answer. If there is one, I'd like to find it. If there isn't one, that's important to know too.

Lets pretend its true now, what? everytime you had a spirtual experience , feeling the spirt , heavenly Father answering a prayer , now it didnt happen. your testimoney isnt on just JS its on the Book of Mormon as well, is that true? you need to find yourself.

There was only one perfect man that walked this earth that was here to bring the truth and he was killed also, now we hear he layed with a harlet and had a child , did he I dont know I dought it but, I do know the Holy Ghost dont lie and he has filled my heart several time when reading the Book of Mormon, walking into the church or reading books on JS.

I dont need to question things that happened when I wasnt there, the spirit is my guide and he will lead me to the place he wants me and for the past 8 yrs it been the LDS church.

You are treading on shakie grounds and I hope you dont completely forget the experiences that you have had.

Edited January 19, 2009 by jolee65

[Sergg]

But all its being discussed here is whether -factually or not- JS did practice poligamy in ways that exceed the traditional 'plural-wives' manner. It is interesting though, and that was the reason i brought up the article from Fairlds.org, that mormonism -criticized and all-, has been (as much as I know) the only religion of north american origin (and christian) that has allowed poliginy even if as byproduct of poligamy.

The obscure and 'wicked' practices beside that is of no interest to me whatsoever on this topic. I recall reading a copy(because the original 'had'nt survived') of a journal written by elders attending one of Brigham Young's 'conferences' in Utah. It explained how Young was stating the new laws concerning divorce. Women were -allegedly in this document- allowed to be divorced only if

a)her husband repudiated her

b) a higher leader from the Church approached the husband and asked to haver as a wife

But such practcies (even if true), remain in a very closed and unaccesible past. No real documents survive on such things. That paper I read so long ago came from a site that wasnt mormon-friendly. And the lies that antimormonism add to real-fact-events in the mormon past, affects and diminishes the value of great factically-true conversations on events whether bad or good.

So as long as to this topic is concerned, it was -I think-, a historical question regarding a historical answer. It was given.

[Hemidakota]

"Joseph would approach a man to ask for his wife, which of course, caused great anguish for both of them. After they had agreed, Joseph told them it was just a test"

Yeah THAT I would call dirty!!! OK I am mad at him... 65 lashes with a wet macaroni! Some guys just... on an other tought maybe better not to write it here...

Some test as it was for Abraham when the Savior asked him to sacrifice him.

[FunkyTown]

Some test as it was for Abraham when the Savior asked him to sacrifice him.

Joseph Smith is not Jehovah.

Ultimately, these sorts of accusations don't bother me. Moses was a murderer(Unless someone can tell me where in the bible it says God told Moses to kill the Egyptian), Jonah directly ran away from God when he was told to go preach repentence and the Apostles denied Christ out of fear.

I'm sure there are reasons for all of these things. I respect and love Joseph as the prophet of the restoration, but I worship God and His son.

[Hemidakota]

If the Savior ask him to go to this brother and say this, then acting upon this as it was from the Lord Himself.

[applepansy]

However, this is the one area I have no respect for him at all. Joseph would approach a man to ask for his wife, which of course, caused great anguish for both of them. After they had agreed, Joseph told them it was just a test.

I find this manipulative and mean. These Saints had already proven their worth and merit. There was no reason to cause them more anguish than they'd already been through. The Kimball’s were as true to Joseph as anyone; in fact, they later let their young daughter, Helen Mar Kimball, be sealed to Joseph.

I really do understand the trials of the early Saints were meant to weed out the weak, as the Church needed strong souls to thrive. And even I, as an ex-Mormon see that this did happen. The hardiest of souls, spirtual and physical, are the ones who made it to Utah.

But, I just can’t wrap my head around this one. This is from the article from FAIR:

I thought Rough Stone Rolling gave an excellent explanation of Joseph and his plural wives, except for situations like thiis. I don't see it as loving at all. I see it as a man whose power has gone to his head, if only for a moment.

Elphaba

By this logic then God was manipulative and mean when he asked Abraham to sacrifice his son?

I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. Aren't prophets meant to test the people?

applepansy

[Hemidakota]

Exactly...they are the mouthpiece of the Savior.

[Just_A_Guy]

It explained how Young was stating the new laws concerning divorce. Women were -allegedly in this document- allowed to be divorced only if

a)her husband repudiated her

b) a higher leader from the Church approached the husband and asked to haver as a wife

I've heard this, but no one seems to ever be able to point to a primary or even a secondary source. It has the stuff of urban legend. Young's actual practice with respect to divorce can be read about in Arrington's Brigham Young: American Moses, pages 318-319 of the Google Books version.

But such practcies (even if true), remain in a very closed and unaccesible past. No real documents survive on such things.

Incorrect. LDS Archives are full of such documents, including Brigham Young's personal letterbooks. The vast majority of these documents are accessible under the same conditions you'd find in any professionally-maintained archives.

[FunkyTown]

By this logic then God was manipulative and mean when he asked Abraham to sacrifice his son?

I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. Aren't prophets meant to test the people?

applepansy

Well... no. Prophets are meant to call a people to repentence, to turn away from their own roads and come to the path that God has called for them.

God tests people. Prophets do God's will. Moses never said to Pharoah, "Let my people go. And also give me half your Kingdom." and Jonah never said, "Nineveh? Give up your firstborn."

Nephi was commanded to smite Laban. Abraham was commanded to give up his son. All these tests came directly from God.

Unless you can quote some source in the Bible, the Book of Mormon or even Doctrine and Covenants where God has commanded a test through his Prophets?

We all respect Joseph for what he did. But we can't gloss over any aspect. We must wrestle with it and come to terms with it. All men are flawed and Joseph even dressed himself down in Doctrine and Covenants. It's possible this was God's will. I don't know. We can even dismiss this as an unimportant question, but what we can't do is lie about this: If this act occurred, we must accept it as truth.

[Sergg]

I've heard this, but no one seems to ever be able to point to a primary or even a secondary source. It has the stuff of urban legend. Young's actual practice with respect to divorce can be read about in Arrington's Brigham Young: American Moses, pages 318-319 of the Google Books version.

Incorrect. LDS Archives are full of such documents, including Brigham Young's personal letterbooks. The vast majority of these documents are accessible under the same conditions you'd find in any professionally-maintained archives.

The Mormon Archives are not open to 'everybody-just-anybody'. And respecting the obscurity of documents, I reffer to those that have been invented by antimormons, or 'rescued' as 'secondary' sources. If I hear (or read) a claim, i go check it up. If it comes back with no original document whatsoever, then i proceed to

a)analyze the probabilities and 'soundness' of it as plausible*

b)neglect it and consider it gratuious nonsense

The rumor of the divorce practices of Young I consider a 'b' option. But for historical reasons, not 'faith' reasons. I treat mormonism and its history as any other topic of serious discussion.

[applepansy]

Well... no. Prophets are meant to call a people to repentence, to turn away from their own roads and come to the path that God has called for them.

God tests people. Prophets do God's will. Moses never said to Pharoah, "Let my people go. And also give me half your Kingdom." and Jonah never said, "Nineveh? Give up your firstborn."

Nephi was commanded to smite Laban. Abraham was commanded to give up his son. All these tests came directly from God.

Unless you can quote some source in the Bible, the Book of Mormon or even Doctrine and Covenants where God has commanded a test through his Prophets?

We all respect Joseph for what he did. But we can't gloss over any aspect. We must wrestle with it and come to terms with it. All men are flawed and Joseph even dressed himself down in Doctrine and Covenants. It's possible this was God's will. I don't know. We can even dismiss this as an unimportant question, but what we can't do is lie about this: If this act occurred, we must accept it as truth.

I stand corrected. All tests come from God. . .and some of our tests come from God through our prophet. (source: life experience)

applepansy

[FunkyTown]

I stand corrected. All tests come from God. . .and some of our tests come from God through our prophet. (source: life experience)

applepansy

I feel very uncomfortable that you are quoting yourself as a source instead of quoting scripture. No offense to you, Apple, but you are neither Prophet nor Apostle. It's a non-source. If you'd like, I can dig out every reference I made above and quote biblical and BoM source for God testing people. But I have never seen a single case of a Prophet asking for something which turned out to just be a test.

I know me asking for source probably offended you, but we can not preach a doctrine based on Joe the Plumbers personal experience, nor mine nor even yours Apple. We must needs preach a doctrine that is available to all.

[Hemidakota]

Did not Moses test the people?

[pam]

Please state your sources.

Hi Pam,

I only asked for sources so I would have something to read up on.

[FunkyTown]

Did not Moses test the people?

No. Moses went up the Mount and came back to find a people who had backslid and were stiffnecked.

Moses led the people through the desert for 40 years - Not because he said "We should wander for 40 years." but because God refused to lead a wicked generation to the promised land.

EDIT: Actually, I take that back. If it -was- a test, Moses wasn't let in on that secret by God.

Edited January 19, 2009 by FunkyTown