Definition of a Christian

[Elgama]

Iso Jesus and his apostles were not christian. So many times Jesus spoke about HIS father and in Acts in one place the apostles say YOU and your father. I tell 2 not 1.

Jesus wasn't Christian, when he walked the Earth he was a Jew

-Charley

[Faded]

I've dug as deep as a could trying to figure out why I couldn't be a Christian and Mormon at the same time. I've already posted a summary of what I found on the matter and I feel I've said my peace on the matter.

I did want to share something I find very amusing from my life.

I grew up in a more mission field location and got handed the "Mormons aren't Christians" line a lot. I served a mission on the Bible Belt and got handed the line a whole lot more. I found one thing very very amusing. I could give a quick synopsis of both the LDS concept of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, and the traditional Trinitarian view of things. No frills and no bias to the explanations, just the concepts. Nine times out of ten, Protestants of all faiths said they believed in the LDS view of there being three actual and separate beings. Most of the people I asked were the very people telling me that I'm not Christian.

I was talking with a very good Protestant friend of mine the yesterday evening. He is very well read and studied in the Bible and a truly Christian man in every sense of the word. I was telling him that for the million and first time, somebody brought up the the whole "Momon's aren't Christians" thing. He was unfamiliar with it, so I then started to explain why this accusation is constantly being thrown at us -- so I was explaining the two views of the nature of God. I explained the LDS view first and the Trinitarian view second. Before I even told him which was which, and who believed in it, he interjected, "Right, I believe the first one (the LDS one)."

When I told him that the Trinitarian view was the accepted view throughout virtually all of Christianity, and that it was the sole reasoning behind the accusation, he thought it was completely ridiculous. On his own, he made referece to a lot of familiar passages and asked, "What, do they think that Jesus was talking to himself?" Basically, almost every objections that would fall from the lips of a Latter Day Saint followed, along with, "Well that's a lousy way to try to proselytize anyone by putting people on the defensive right off the bat like that."

One thing seems evident to me. A whole lot of ministers and pastors are doing a lousy job of teaching the Trinity. Why else would so many of their followers have no idea that they are supposed believe in the Trinity concept of God? Most would say they never heard of it. How can they believe it if don't even know it?! Apparently, all of them get to go to hell with all the Mormons.

Edited January 29, 2009 by Faded

[jolee65]

Fade I see your point , and for everyone in the Bible belt , which I live very close to im in Michigan, It doesnt matter what they think , we know that we're christians. Heavenly Father knows we're christians , im sure it was difficult heaing that alot serving a mission but its all good. :)

[Hemidakota]

I've dug as deep as a could trying to figure out why I couldn't be a Christian and Mormon at the same time. I've already posted a summary of what I found on the matter and I feel I've said my peace on the matter.

I did want to share something I find very amusing from my life.

I grew up in a more mission field location and got handed the "Mormons aren't Christians" line a lot. I served a mission on the Bible Belt and got handed the line a whole lot more. I found one thing very very amusing. I could give a quick synopsis of both the LDS concept of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, and the traditional Trinitarian view of things. No frills and no bias to the explanations, just the concepts. Nine times out of ten, Protestants of all faiths said they believed in the LDS view of there being three actual and separate beings. Most of the people I asked were the very people telling me that I'm not Christian.

I was talking with a very good Protestant friend of mine the yesterday evening. He is very well read and studied in the Bible and a truly Christian man in every sense of the word. I was telling him that for the million and first time, somebody brought up the the whole "Momon's aren't Christians" thing. He was unfamiliar with it, so I then started to explain why this accusation is constantly being thrown at us -- so I was explaining the two views of the nature of God. I explained the LDS view first and the Trinitarian view second. Before I even told him which was which, and who believed in it, he interjected, "Right, I believe the first one (the LDS one)."

When I told him that the Trinitarian view was the accepted view throughout virtually all of Christianity, and that it was the sole reasoning behind the accusation, he thought it was completely ridiculous. On his own, he made referece to a lot of familiar passages and asked, "What, do they think that Jesus was talking to himself?" Basically, almost every objections that would fall from the lips of a Latter Day Saint followed, along with, "Well that's a lousy way to try to proselytize anyone by putting people on the defensive right off the bat like that."

One thing seems evident to me. A whole lot of ministers and pastors are doing a lousy job of teaching the Trinity. Why else would so many of their followers have no idea that they are supposed believe in the Trinity concept of God? Most would say they never heard of it. How can they believe it if don't even know it?! Apparently, all of them get to go to hell with all the Mormons.

I wonder if we should return the same complement since they do not name the church after their own god.

[Guest ceeboo]

Fade I see your point , and for everyone in the Bible belt , which I live very close to im in Michigan

Hey jolee65 :)

I am in Michigan also ( if you ever need to borrow an egg or milk, please do not hesitate to ask, neighbor :))

I did not realize I lived so close to the Bible belt !!!! :):) Me scared now

[Faded]

Hey jolee65 :)

I am in Michigan also ( if you ever need to borrow an egg or milk, please do not hesitate to ask, neighbor :))

I did not realize I lived so close to the Bible belt !!!! :):) Me scared now

HAHAHAHAHAHA! Now why the heck are the laughs disabled on this thread??

Yeah the whole experience of living down south and experiencing the Bible Belt first hand -- you have to live there before you'd really understand or appreciate it. It's lots of fun. I'm in Illinois now and it's definitely nothing like the deep South Bible Belt. You get a certain amount of religious fervor just about anywhere, but there's just a LOT more of it down south. Wonderful people. Love em.

[Misshalfway]

The whole concept of "defining" who is a Christian and who is not drives me nuts especially considering that half of Christ's mission was trying to get the "groups" to stop dividing themselves from one another. You think the only lesson of the Good Samaritan was one of service?

[jolee65]

Kentucky, the Carolinas also included in the Bible belt, alot of family through that area. But never had a bad experience with religion but then they dont know im LDS.

Back at ya, ceeboo, yeah, your in detroit right??

[Guest ceeboo]

Kentucky, the Carolinas also included in the Bible belt, alot of family through that area. But never had a bad experience with religion but then they dont know im LDS.

Back at ya, ceeboo, yeah, your in detroit right??

About 40 minutes from Detroit ( Burbs ) :):):)

Can I borrow 2 eggs ?? I am making brownies tonight and do not have any.

[Maureen]

Faded said:

I explained the LDS view first and the Trinitarian view second.

Hello Faded, before I ask my question, just want to let you know that I have been enjoying your posts. So just out of curiousity could you please explain the Trinity doctrine? Thanks! :)

[Faded]

Faded said:Hello Faded, before I ask my question, just want to let you know that I have been enjoying your posts. So just out of curiousity could you please explain the Trinity doctrine? Thanks! :)

Short version: God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are all one and the same being.

Long version: Only by request -- it takes a lot of explaining.

[prisonchaplain]

I've mentioned this before, but it bares repeating: Trinitarians do believe God is one being--but three distinct personalities. Thus all the questions about Jesus praying to himself and directing people to the Father do not make sense to me. Yes, Jesus, God the Son, directs people to God the Father. They are distinct personalities.

If non-LDS Christians have an explanation of the Trinity that clearly acknowledges the separate personalities of the one God, vs. the idea of three gods in perfect unity, there might be less agreement. This is especially true if they understood that embracing the LDS Godhead meant allowing for the existence of multiple gods, and eventually the allowance of human deification.

No desire to turn this into another Trinity doctrine thread--just to point out that many who initially think the LDS view is clearer may not be seeing where such teachings lead.

Edited January 29, 2009 by prisonchaplain

[Faded]

I've mentioned this before, but it bares repeating: Trinitarians do believe God is one being--but three distinct personalities. Thus all the questions about Jesus praying to himself and directing people to the Father do not make sense to me. Yes, Jesus, God the Son, directs people to God the Father. They are distinct personalities.

If non-LDS Christians have an explanation of the Trinity that clearly acknowledges the separate personalities of the one God, vs. the idea of three gods in perfect unity, there might be less agreement. This is especially true if they understood that embracing the LDS Godhead meant allowing for the existence of multiple gods, and eventually the allowance of human deification.

No desire to turn this into another Trinity doctrine thread--just to point out that many who initially think the LDS view is clearer may not be seeing where such teachings lead.

I refer you to the second part of my last post:

Long version: Only by request -- it takes a lot of explaining.

The Trinity doctrine is complex. Three people that aren't three people. One being that is three beings. I can't do it justice and still be brief. I'm also not the best person to try to explain it since I completely disagree with it. When explaining it to others, I do try to be fair and unbiased.

The whole focus and purpose of the OP was directed towards, "Accept the Trinity doctrine or you are not a Christian." One can debate the opposing views of the nature of God for at least 1700 years (and counting). The Council of Nicea decided by committee that you had accept the Trinity. I disagree. I always will.

[Maureen]

When explaining it to others, I do try to be fair and unbiased.

I am officially requesting the long version. But to be honest, the trinity is not that difficult to explain. I ask because I find that people that do find it complicated really don't know what it is. And I agree with PC, so many people ask the strangest question like the typical "Who was Jesus praying to?" How many times does that question need to be answered since it is so obvious. I am looking forward to your explanation Faded.

[Madriglace]

A couple of weeks ago our Stake President showed up and spoke in Sacrement meeting and spoke on just this subject. What he said made perfect sense to me and made me decide then and there to do better.

He said basically that members of the church not being veiwed as Christian is in large part on our shoulders. When some one asks you what church we belong to what do we say??? Most I'm Mormon. Less of a mouth full than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. So when someone asks us what the church teaches or what we believe do we launch into families and Joseph Smith and Temples and Service or do we humbly and sweetly bear testimony of the Savior and His redeeming sacrifice for us and of our love for Him and His love for us? Hey I'm guilty ... many times I have come away from a you're not Christian contact wishing I had said all the stuff I should have and not what I said.

Maybe being a Christian is as simple as being so centered in Him and His plan for us that we automatically speak of Him first and foremost when asked. JMHO

[FunkyTown]

All right, PC... I agree with you on most things, but I disagree that it is easy to comprehend the Trinity. Here's what Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry says:

****

What is the Trinity?

The word "trinity" is a term used to denote the Christian doctrine that God exists as a unity of three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of the persons is distinct from the other, yet identical in essence. In other words, each is fully divine in nature, but each is not the totality of the other persons of the Trinity. Each has a will, loves, and says "I", and "You" when speaking. The Father is not the same person as the Son who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit who is not the same person as the Father. Each is divine, yet there are not three gods, but one God. There are three individual subsistences, or persons. The word "subsistence" means something that has a real existence. The word "person" denotes individuality and self awareness. The Trinity is three of these, though the latter term has become the dominant one used to describe the individual aspects of God known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Included in the doctrine of the Trinity is a strict monotheism which is the teaching that there exists in all the universe a single being known as God who is self-existent and unchangeable (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8). Therefore, it is important to note that the doctrine of the trinity is not polytheistic as some of its critics proclaim. Trinitarianism is monotheistic by definition and those who claim it is polytheistic demonstrate a lack of understanding of what it really is.

The Trinity

God is three persons

Each person is divine

There is only one God.

Many theologians admit that the term "person" is not a perfect word to describe the three individual aspects/foci found in God. When we normally use the word person, we understand it to mean physical individuals who exist as separate beings from other individuals. But in God there are not three entities, nor three beings. God, is a trinity of persons consisting of one substance and one essence. God is numerically one. Yet, within the single divine essence are three individual subsistences that we call persons.

Each of the three persons is completely divine in nature though each is not the totality of the Godhead.

Each of the three persons is not the other two persons.

Each of the three persons is related to the other two, but are distinct from them.

The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible. But this does not mean that the concept is not taught there. The word "bible" is not found in the Bible either, but we use it anyway. Likewise, the words "omniscience," which means "all knowing," "omnipotence," which means "all powerful," and "omnipresence," which means "present everywhere," are not found in the Bible either. But we use these words to describe the attributes of God. So, to say that the Trinity isn't true because the word isn't in the Bible is an invalid argument.

Is there subordination in the Trinity?

There is, apparently, a subordination within the Trinity in regard to order but not substance or essence. We can see that the Father is first, the Son is second, and the Holy Spirit is third. The Father is not begotten, but the Son is (John 3:16). The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 5:26). The Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10). The Son and the Father send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26). The Father creates (Isaiah 44:24), the Son redeems (Gal. 3:13), and the Holy Spirit sanctifies (Rom. 15:16).

This subordination of order does not mean that each of the members of the Godhead are not equal or divine. For example, we see that the Father sent the Son. But this does not mean that the Son is not equal to the Father in essence and divine nature. The Son is equal to the Father in his divinity, but inferior in his humanity. A wife is to be subject to her husband but this does not negate her humanity, essence, or equality. By further analogy, a king and his servant both share human nature. Yet, the king sends the servant to do his will. Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38). Of course Jesus already is King, but the analogy shows that because someone is sent, it doesn't mean they are different than the one who sent him.

Critics of the Trinity will see this subordination as proof that the Trinity is false. They reason that if Jesus were truly God, then He would be completely equal to God the Father in all areas and would not, therefore, be subordinate to the Father in any way. But this objection is not logical. If we look at the analogy of the king and in the servant we certainly would not say that the servant was not human because he was sent. Being sent does not negate sameness in essence. Therefore, the fact that the Son is sent does not mean that He is not divine any more than when my wife sends me to get bread, I am not human.

Is this confusing?

Another important point about the Trinity is that it can be a difficult concept to grasp. But this does not necessitate an argument against its validity. On the contrary, the fact that it is difficult is an argument for its truth. The Bible is the self revelation of an infinite God. Therefore, we are bound to encounter concepts which are difficult to understand -- especially when dealing with an incomprehensible God who exists in all places at all times. So, when we view descriptions and attributes of God manifested in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, we discover that a completely comprehensible and understandable explanation of God's essence and nature is not possible. What we have, however, done is derive from the Scripture the truths that we can grasp and combine them into the doctrine we call The Trinity. The Trinity is, to a large extent, a mystery. After all, we are dealing with God Himself.

It is the way of the cults to reduce biblical truth to make God comprehensible and understandable by their minds. To this end, they subject God's word to their own reasoning and end in error. The following verses are often used to demonstrate that in the doctrine of the Trinity is indeed biblical.

Matt. 28:18, Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

1 Cor. 12:4-6, Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.

2 Cor. 13:14, The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

Eph. 4:4-7, There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

1 Pet. 1:2, "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure."

Jude 20-21, "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."

__________________

Sources:

Baker's Dictionary of Theology, Everett Harrison, ed. Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1960.

Berkhoff's Systematic Theology, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1988.

Grudem, Wayne, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, MI, 1994.

Hodge's Systematic Theology, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1981.

[Maxel]

To be fair to the LDS Godhead and the traditional Christian Trinity, both are simultaneously simple and complex: simple enough to be summarized in a few words, yet complex enough that to understand them fully, it takes much more space than we really have here. However, the Trinity is unique in that a core part of the doctrine is that it cannot be understood fully by human minds.

One of my former roommates (Episcopalian) and I used to discuss religion quite frequently, always on good terms and fair ground. He once told me that he needed the 'mystery of the trinity' to even recognize his own faith as rational. He also said that he didn't really understand it, but it's one of the mysteries of God. Noted scholar Craig Blomberg admits he doesn't really grasp the idea of the Trinity, but he has faith in it. He also references other biblical authorities (scholars) who say the same thing. The one I remember him citing is Billy Graham, but he did mention others (If I had the book with me, I'd look it up; he states this in his book How Wide the Divide?, which he co-authored with LDS scholar Stephen Robinson).

The conclusion I come to is that the LDS see the nature of God (3 beings with one purpose) as rational and divine, while non-LDS Christians see the nature of God (the Trinity) as 'irrational' (by human terms) yet still divine. I think that points to the distinct theological differences in the LDS and non-LDS Christian viewpoints: the LDS see all of existence as an extension and evolution of human life with humanity centering as the centerpiece of God's creation, while non-LDS see the sum of existence as something wholly apart from human existence, in which humanity is merely one small part of God's creations.

In discussions such as this, that discuss the nature of the Godhead/Trinity, it tends to lead to a very confusing exchange: the traditional Christian Trinity is one that can best be explained using advanced philosophical understanding (such is the nature of the Creeds), while the LDS Godhead is simple and much easier to connect to in layman's understanding.

Writing my thoughts down on this subject has produced a somewhat nebulous result; and I'm not positive of my conclusion. If PC or Maureen (or any other non-LDS Christian) could weigh in on any part of what I said I'd appreciate it, especially the parts about how non-LDS view the Trinity.

[Maxel]

I've mentioned this before, but it bares repeating: Trinitarians do believe God is one being--but three distinct personalities. Thus all the questions about Jesus praying to himself and directing people to the Father do not make sense to me. Yes, Jesus, God the Son, directs people to God the Father. They are distinct personalities.

So, would it be fair to say that the LDS viewpoint about the nature of God is clearer and easier to understand, and that the Trinitarian viewpoint about the nature of God is less clear and difficult to understand the basics, while impossible to understand it fully? It seems to me that, if that is the case, then each viewpoint validates the theology of each religion: the LDS see God's Kingdom and the nature of God as making rational sense even from human perspective, and Trinitarians believe that God's Kingdom and the nature of God don't make rational sense from a human perspective.

I'm really asking a question and trying to figure this out, please bear with me if I've misunderstood any/all of it.

Also, just a note: if one teaching is clearer than another, than it is clearer than the other. I do not believe the doctrine of the Trinity to be difficult to understand in its essence, but it is not easier, at any level, to understand than the doctrine of the LDS Godhead. Questions similar to 'Is God talking to himself when Jesus addresses the Father?' are not adequate examples of the hole in Trinitarian doctrine. In fact, the Trinitarian doctrine only seems to run afoul of incorrectness if one is to believe that God is a rational, explainable phenomenon. That's always how I've looked at it, anyway.

Edited January 29, 2009 by Maxel

[jolee65]

About 40 minutes from Detroit ( Burbs ) :):):)

Can I borrow 2 eggs ?? I am making brownies tonight and do not have any.

keep your eyes open there air mail,......lol

[Faded]

I am officially requesting the long version. But to be honest, the trinity is not that difficult to explain. I ask because I find that people that do find it complicated really don't know what it is. And I agree with PC, so many people ask the strangest question like the typical "Who was Jesus praying to?" How many times does that question need to be answered since it is so obvious. I am looking forward to your explanation Faded.

FunkyTown covered most of it. This is a short run-through.

The Trinity Doctrine:

The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are three aspects of the same being. Three persons, one substance.

From this elegant pictorial representation we learn that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the same being -- but they're not the same person.

So in one sense, the Father is the same thing as the Son, but in another sense, he isn't.

Thus, in one sense Jesus is the same thing as the Father, but in another sense, he isn't.

In one way, the Holy Ghost is the same thing as the Father, but in another way he isn't.

Jesus Christ is the same as the Holy Ghost in one sense, but in another, he isn't.

At no point in time do any of the three stop being the same being. At no point in time are they the same person.

It's about at this point that the whole concept gives me a headache. The harder you try to understand the Trinity Doctrine, the more confusing it gets.

So to go back to the question, "Who is Jesus praying to." Based on Trinitarianism, he is not praying to himself. He's praying to his other self.

Edited January 30, 2009 by Faded

[Book_of_Mormon_Warrior]

FunkyTown covered most of it. This is a short run-through.

The Trinity Doctrine:

The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are three aspects of the same being. Three persons, one substance.

From this elegant pictorial representation we learn that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the same being -- but they're not the same person.

So in one sense, the Father is the same thing as the Son, but in another sense, he isn't.

Thus, in one sense Jesus is the same thing as the Father, but in another sense, he isn't.

In one way, the Holy Ghost is the same thing as the Father, but in another way he isn't.

Jesus Christ is the same as the Holy Ghost in one sense, but in another, he isn't.

At no point in time do any of the three stop being the same being. At no point in time are they the same person.

It's about at this point that the whole concept gives me a headache.

So to go back to the question, "Who is Jesus praying to." Based on Trinitarianism, he is not praying to himself. He's praying to his other self.

So God has "Multiple Personality Disorder", like "Sybil"?

[Maxel]

So God has "Multiple Personality Disorder", like "Sybil"?

I think saying that God has "Multiple Personality Disorder" is doing the doctrine of the Trinity disservice, as it isn't how Trinitarians actually see it. Admittedly, I can't technically tell you how they see it, but I don't think they'd see it in those terms.

[prisonchaplain]

So, would it be fair to say that the LDS viewpoint about the nature of God is clearer and easier to understand, and that the Trinitarian viewpoint about the nature of God is less clear and difficult to understand the basics, while impossible to understand it fully? It seems to me that, if that is the case, then each viewpoint validates the theology of each religion: the LDS see God's Kingdom and the nature of God as making rational sense even from human perspective, and Trinitarians believe that God's Kingdom and the nature of God don't make rational sense from a human perspective.

I'm really asking a question and trying to figure this out, please bear with me if I've misunderstood any/all of it.

Also, just a note: if one teaching is clearer than another, than it is clearer than the other. I do not believe the doctrine of the Trinity to be difficult to understand in its essence, but it is not easier, at any level, to understand than the doctrine of the LDS Godhead. Questions similar to 'Is God talking to himself when Jesus addresses the Father?' are not adequate examples of the hole in Trinitarian doctrine. In fact, the Trinitarian doctrine only seems to run afoul of incorrectness if one is to believe that God is a rational, explainable phenomenon. That's always how I've looked at it, anyway.

OK...peer pressure...I can't take it any more...LOL...I will start a new thread, to do this topic justice.

[Maureen]

So God has "Multiple Personality Disorder", like "Sybil"?

I would say that this is a perfect example of being disrespectful and irreverent.

[prisonchaplain]

See my new thread...but I suppose what's bugging folks about the Trinity is how three persons can be one essential being, whereas what bugs Trinitarians about the LDS Godhead is how three gods (granted only one is worshipped) seems to violate the monotheism of historic Jewish and Christian faith. For me, I can accept that the three persons in one God is hard to wrap the mind, but tremble in fear at the potential for heresy and worse by accepting that there are three gods.