Were Adam and Eve born?

[Hemidakota]

We can speculate all we want but until the Holy Ghost or the GODHEAD makes it known to you, you will be surprised on what we assume is not always what had happen.

[Justice]

Moses 4:

25 By the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, until thou shalt return unto the ground—for thou shalt surely die—for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou wast, and unto dust shalt thou return.

I don't know how some can assume God molded a pile of clay and breathed on it and it became a living soul. Just because Adam was made from the dust of the earth doesn't make him different than us. We are made from the dust of the earth also. When we die we return to the dust. It was no different with Adam. So, why assume Adam was created any different than any other man who was ever created?

[JohnnyRudick]

Moses 4:

25 By the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, until thou shalt return unto the ground—for thou shalt surely die—for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou wast, and unto dust shalt thou return.

I don't know how some can assume God molded a pile of clay and breathed on it and it became a living soul. Just because Adam was made from the dust of the earth doesn't make him different than us. We are made from the dust of the earth also. When we die we return to the dust. It was no different with Adam. So, why assume Adam was created any different than any other man who was ever created?

Now that very loose quote of Brigham Young speculating on the subject (and speaking as if God told him) I agree with.

Don't get me wrong, I did not say what so many have in the past jumped at.

I do know that Brigham Young was called to be God's prophet to lead the Church to safety in a day of sore trouble, that I do so. . .

Bro. Rudick

[TMoneymaker]

I'm probably real late into this post, but now that we are studying the Old Testament I got out our copy of Skousen's The First 2000 Years and he stated his belief that Adam was born of woman. He quotes Brigham Young as stating "He (Adam) was made as you and I were made and no person was ever made on any other principle." from Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3:319 If so, I doubt it was Father and Mother in Heaven as Jesus is the 'Only Begotten' of the Father, and wouldn't Adam have had 'Godly powers' otherwise?

[john doe]

Late? Nah, it's only been 10 months since the last post.

[Justice]

I'm probably real late into this post, but now that we are studying the Old Testament I got out our copy of Skousen's The First 2000 Years and he stated his belief that Adam was born of woman. He quotes Brigham Young as stating "He (Adam) was made as you and I were made and no person was ever made on any other principle." from Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3:319 If so, I doubt it was Father and Mother in Heaven as Jesus is the 'Only Begotten' of the Father, and wouldn't Adam have had 'Godly powers' otherwise?

Jesus is the Only Begotten in the flesh, meaning into mortality. Adam was not born mortal.

[TMoneymaker]

Oh Wow, that is sooo profound

Where did you learn these things (I've seen your other posts)

I 'itch' for this kind of knowledge, so sometimes I can be misled.

[mikbone]

TMoney,

I made a few posts in this thread months ago (see #188 & #194), that apply directly to your questions.

The 1st 2000 years is one of my favorite books btw...

[jadams_4040]

I'm a little new to LDS.net, but thought I would put this question out there. My question is: Were Adam and Eve born?

I was recently listening to a gospel talk by (I think) Vivian McConkie Adams, called Father Adam Mother Eve. In the talk Sister Adams states that Adam was born; she quotes Joseph F. Smith for support. Then she Quotes Brigham Young, something to the extent that if Adam were formed from a lump of clay he would be resurrected as a lump of clay.

I'm looking for the refferences she states. I think I might have found the quote from Joseph F. Smith. But I found it online, so I'm a little skeptical. The quotes are below.

If anyone has any info, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

I know that my Redeemer liveth; . . . I know that God is being with body, parts, and passions and that His Son is in His own likeness, and that man is created in the image of God. The Son, Jesus Christ, grew and developed into manhood the same as you or I, as likewise did God, His Father grow and develop to the Supreme Being that He now is. Man was born of woman; Christ the Savior, was born of woman and God, the Father was born of woman. Adam, our earthly parent, was also born of woman into this world, the same as Jesus and you and I."

Joseph F. Smith (Desert Evening News, Dec. 27, 1913, Sec III, p. 7; Deseret News: Church Section, Sept. 18, 1936, pp, 2, 8).

"Man has descended from God: In fact, he is of the same race as the Gods. His descent has not been from a lower form of life, but from the Highest Form of Life; in other words, man is the most literal sense, a child of God. This is not only true of the spirit of man, but of his body also. There never was a time, probably, in all the eternities of the past, when there was not men or children of God. This world is only one of many worlds which have been created by the Father through His Only Begotten."

Joseph F. Smith, Course of Study for Priests, 1910, under the subject "The Creation of Man," cited in Deseret News: Church Section, Sept. 19, 1936, p. 8

Well being as they were immortal or eternal while in the garden of eden; i would dare to say no they were not born; but were changed after sinning.:)

[Justice]

I have learned that the child takes on the characteristics of its mother. Jesus was born of a mortal mother, or with blood, so Jesus was born with blood. Adam was not born of a mortal mother, but an immortal mother, so he did not have blood when born.

If anyone has any scriptures or quotes that states otherwise I'd love to see them.

This is the principle behind which Satan tempted Eve and not Adam. If Satan wanted to destroy the agency of man, all he had to do was get Eve to partake of the forbidden fruit, and then immediately partake of the tree of life (Alma 12 and 42). She would have become immortal before she was redeemed spiritually, and all of her offspring would have been born immortal, born into the same spiritually fallen state she was in, having no hope at redemption because a blood atonement was no longer possible. Because, obviously, all of Eve's offspring, including Jesus Christ, would have been born immortal, not able to shed blood or die.

Alma 12 and 42.

[mikbone]

That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven of water and of the Spirit and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory. Moses 6:59

This scripture is clearly the Lord speaking unto Adam...

Moses 6:53

Moses 6:55

Point blank the Lord states that Adam was born into the world by water, blood, and spirit...

My testimony is that Adam was born (water - amniotic fluid), as a mortal (blood).

[Justice]

That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven of water and of the Spirit and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory. Moses 6:59

This scripture is clearly the Lord speaking unto Adam...

Moses 6:53

Moses 6:55

Point blank the Lord states that Adam was born into the world by water, blood, and spirit...

My testimony is that Adam was born (water - amniotic fluid), as a mortal (blood).

This birth He is speaking of is the fall. Adam was "born" into mortality through the fall. Read the verse closely. This "death" allowed them to be "born into mortality."

Adam and Eve were immortal while in the Garden of Eden. The scriptures say they would have remained in the same state forever had they not fallen.

[Blackmarch]

I'm a little new to LDS.net, but thought I would put this question out there. My question is: Were Adam and Eve born?

I was recently listening to a gospel talk by (I think) Vivian McConkie Adams, called Father Adam Mother Eve. In the talk Sister Adams states that Adam was born; she quotes Joseph F. Smith for support. Then she Quotes Brigham Young, something to the extent that if Adam were formed from a lump of clay he would be resurrected as a lump of clay.

I'm looking for the refferences she states. I think I might have found the quote from Joseph F. Smith. But I found it online, so I'm a little skeptical. The quotes are below.

If anyone has any info, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

I know that my Redeemer liveth; . . . I know that God is being with body, parts, and passions and that His Son is in His own likeness, and that man is created in the image of God. The Son, Jesus Christ, grew and developed into manhood the same as you or I, as likewise did God, His Father grow and develop to the Supreme Being that He now is. Man was born of woman; Christ the Savior, was born of woman and God, the Father was born of woman. Adam, our earthly parent, was also born of woman into this world, the same as Jesus and you and I."

Joseph F. Smith (Desert Evening News, Dec. 27, 1913, Sec III, p. 7; Deseret News: Church Section, Sept. 18, 1936, pp, 2, 8).

"Man has descended from God: In fact, he is of the same race as the Gods. His descent has not been from a lower form of life, but from the Highest Form of Life; in other words, man is the most literal sense, a child of God. This is not only true of the spirit of man, but of his body also. There never was a time, probably, in all the eternities of the past, when there was not men or children of God. This world is only one of many worlds which have been created by the Father through His Only Begotten."

Joseph F. Smith, Course of Study for Priests, 1910, under the subject "The Creation of Man," cited in Deseret News: Church Section, Sept. 19, 1936, p. 8

were they born?

Yes.

Were they born in a manner that we know of?

No clue.

Does it really matter?

No.

[Seminarysnoozer]

That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven of water and of the Spirit and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory. Moses 6:59

This scripture is clearly the Lord speaking unto Adam...

Moses 6:53

Moses 6:55

Point blank the Lord states that Adam was born into the world by water, blood, and spirit...

My testimony is that Adam was born (water - amniotic fluid), as a mortal (blood).

Wow! this thread has gone on for more than a year. I can see why, this is one of the most interesting topics of the gospel for me. I think there is a lot of confusion about this topic because there are a lot of interchangeable terms used in this discussion like born, born again, man, body. How many times are we 'born'? Many times, born spiritually, born on earth, reborn of water and reborn of fire and the resurrection is a form of birth. There are many forms of the body too. There are probably a lot that we don't know about but we already know some; 1.) the first body in the garden of Eden - an immortal body that was not perfected. 2.) Fallen body - which was changed (greatly in my opinion) from the first, this is the body we all have now. 3.) Transfigured bodies - like those required to see God in this life (was that body born? I don't think so) 4.) Resurrected body - a perfect body that will never be separated from the spirit again. ...

The only body we know something about how it is made is the one here. All the others we have no idea (or very little) and we are told that man alone could not figure out those mysteries based on the knowledge of man alone. We could never become like God without God's help. Our current knowledge of biology (...and I have an advanced degree in biology) is very tiny and not even in the same universe as the knowledge it takes to make an immortal body. So, it's out of our reach to understand how Adam and Eve (their garden of Eden bodies) were first formed just as it is impossible for us to understand how God makes a resurrected body. I suppose we could imagine that Adam and Eve's fallen body had a bellybutton but it no longer exists, so it really doesn't matter.

How those immortal bodies were made, I don't think has to be part of anybodies testimony to reach eternal salvation so long as we have an understanding of the fact that we are the same race as God. I think that is the message from Joseph F. Smith and others that talk about it, that we are not some pet project, that we are literal relatives of our God.

[Blackmarch]

I have learned that the child takes on the characteristics of its mother. Jesus was born of a mortal mother, or with blood, so Jesus was born with blood. Adam was not born of a mortal mother, but an immortal mother, so he did not have blood when born.

If anyone has any scriptures or quotes that states otherwise I'd love to see them.

This is the principle behind which Satan tempted Eve and not Adam. If Satan wanted to destroy the agency of man, all he had to do was get Eve to partake of the forbidden fruit, and then immediately partake of the tree of life (Alma 12 and 42). She would have become immortal before she was redeemed spiritually, and all of her offspring would have been born immortal, born into the same spiritually fallen state she was in, having no hope at redemption because a blood atonement was no longer possible. Because, obviously, all of Eve's offspring, including Jesus Christ, would have been born immortal, not able to shed blood or die.

Alma 12 and 42.

this is great stuff.... But its also mainly logical deduction.

It looks good, sounds good, and makes sense, has scriptural support... but there isn't the stamp of revelation on it for the church.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I have learned that the child takes on the characteristics of its mother. Jesus was born of a mortal mother, or with blood, so Jesus was born with blood. Adam was not born of a mortal mother, but an immortal mother, so he did not have blood when born.

If anyone has any scriptures or quotes that states otherwise I'd love to see them.

This is the principle behind which Satan tempted Eve and not Adam. If Satan wanted to destroy the agency of man, all he had to do was get Eve to partake of the forbidden fruit, and then immediately partake of the tree of life (Alma 12 and 42). She would have become immortal before she was redeemed spiritually, and all of her offspring would have been born immortal, born into the same spiritually fallen state she was in, having no hope at redemption because a blood atonement was no longer possible. Because, obviously, all of Eve's offspring, including Jesus Christ, would have been born immortal, not able to shed blood or die.

Alma 12 and 42.

We don't know if procreation was even possible in a 'Garden of Eden' immortal body. I think the support for it not being possible is the fact that Adam also had to eat of the fruit for them to procreate after Eve had done it. I know we've gone back and forth on this idea before but I really don't think human procreation was possible in the Garden of Eden state of the body. God telling Adam and Eve to multiply in that state is like telling my 13 year old that I want her to get married in the temple ... not right now of course, just when she is old enough and worthy to do it. I think a lot of people interpret that commandment to multiply as something they were told to do in the Garden and in that state of being. I don't see it that way, I think it was a commandment that they knew the requirements for which entailed getting a different body, a fallen body.

So, I don't think it was within Adam and Eve's power, at any time, to pro-create immortal babies. They themselves could have stayed immortal, but I think their dilemma included the fact that none of us would have gotten bodies. Procreation of immortal beings I don't think occurs until after we have passed through the state of probation, or at least gone beyond it and received a resurrected body which is different from an immortal 'Garden of Eden' body. Not only does it have to be resurrected but of the Celestial resurrection before we can make immortal bodies. The hypothetical situation given could have never happened, in my opinion.

[Justice]

I believe they had the ability physically, they just didn't have the understanding. Evidence of this is found in Genesis where they hid themselves because they were naked. Before they partook of the fruit they didn't notice, care, or recognize that they were "naked." Just like you said about your young daughter, or even younger, there is no understanding until taught.

[JohnOF123]

I think your answer is found in Genesis 1:27 and also Genesis 2:22

"So God created man in his own image.."

"Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man.."

It seems clear that the human race was created, not born.

He made man from the dust of the Earth and woman from mans rib.

[Justice]

You are made from the dust of the earth, also, John.

And, there is symbolism in the Gospel, like partaking of the body and blood of Christ. I don't believe we really do that, it's just a symbol. The same applies here to God taking a rib from Adam to create Eve. Eve was made of the dust of the ground just as Adam was... just as you are.

If you are to take it leterally, as you suggest, it says God created man and woman in His image... are you saying God is both male and female?

[JohnOF123]

If you are to take it leterally, as you suggest, it says God created man and woman in His image... are you saying God is both male and female?

No, He didn't mean in our image literally, since "God is spirit and must be worshiped in spirit."

God also said we must be conformed to His image, so image would mean that He created man with spiritual similarities (love, moral character, emotions, logic, etc).

Also, not sure if I would agree that taking mans rib was symbolism.

God then caused a deep sleep to come over Adam and He removed one of Adams ribs.

But regardless, I would agree that we were created, not born.

[Justice]

Describe created for me...

[JohnOF123]

to make or bring into existence something new

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe they had the ability physically, they just didn't have the understanding. Evidence of this is found in Genesis where they hid themselves because they were naked. Before they partook of the fruit they didn't notice, care, or recognize that they were "naked." Just like you said about your young daughter, or even younger, there is no understanding until taught.

Knowing what my 13 year old knows about sexual reproduction even though she hasn't experienced it herself I can't comprehend 13 years of knowledge trumping the billions and billions (at least greater than 13) of years walking and talking with God. Don't you think Adam, walking and talking with God asked 'Why am I here? How is this supposed to happen?' In my opinion, they understood the commandment when they got it, after all he knew enough to name the animals and plants, he knew plenty about biology. There was no veil in the Garden. You really think in the pre-existence we never took a class or heard a lecture or however we learned (maybe watching it on other worlds) about how mortal reproduction occurs. I would venture to say Adam and Eve knew more about it while they were in the Garden than all of man's current combined knowledge of reproduction right now.

Animals reproduce without any shame, they do it in front of all the other animals and don't care. If anything I would think they would try what comes natural even more if there was no shame in it before the fall .... unless of course it wasn't possible.

If Eve could reproduce at the point she took the fruit of the tree of knowledge, why didn't she just tell Adam that it was possible at that time without needing to have Adam take the fruit? What? He couldn't learn from Eve? He didn't trust her? I'll give you my answer to those questions - Adam had to take of the fruit too because there was a transformation of the body that took place with the eating of the fruit ... it wasn't just knowledge. That's how I reason through it. If babies were born immortal they would be punished for their parents sins, having a limit to their increase. I can't see how that would even be a possibility.

[Justice]

I'll find the quotes if you want, but it was said they were "innocent" while in the Garden. This is the same state we were in during the pre-mortal existence, except they were in physical bodies. I believe they just lacked the knowledge, just like during the pre-earth life. "The tree of the knowledge of good and evil" tells us something of what they may have learned. When did they learn how to procreate? If they were not able at all, how could they have learned how?

I believe they were created perfect. The fall did not add the ability to procreate, but knowledge they did not have before.

Adam could learn from Eve, sure, but they couldn't be together if they were separated by spiritual death. Adam chose to be with Eve.

Babies can be and are born immortal, and will yet be during the Millennium. Babies are not punished for their parents sins, as we know from the Article of Faith.

Study Alma 12 and 42 intently. Awesome stuff!

[Justice]

to make or bring into existence something new

I meant a little more in depth.

When a baby is born now, exactly what happens? Are the body and spirit both created together? Did the spirit exist before? Does God "put or place" a spirit that He created prior to conception in the body created by man and woman?

Feel free to elaborate.