Investigation, secrecy, documents, Oh My!

[Hemidakota]

EXCERPT: The American News Project is promoting a news video "investigation" of the LDS Church's support of Proposition 8. While this film could be called an advocacy documentary or simply propaganda, please don't call it quality journalism or even "news."

It's produced by Steve Greenstreet, who identifies himself as a former Mormon missionary who produced the documentary "The Divided State" about Michael Moore's and Sean Hannity's visits to Utah Valley State College.

LINK ARTICLE: MormonTimes - Investigation, secrecy, documents, Oh My!

[Captain-Jack]

I highly doubt this will result in anything other than "Well crap. They didn't do anything wrong."

[Moksha]

I think the outcome of the California Fair Practices investigation and the IRS investigation will be of interest to all Mormons.

Here is the original story: Prop 8 - Did Mormons Go Too Far? | American News Project

[Canuck Mormon]

I highly doubt this will result in anything other than "Well crap. They didn't do anything wrong."

The sad part is that this will never be announced because it is not news worthy to promote good news.

[nc31410]

This all baffles me...I simply don't get it. I think that the people that are protesting against the church, simply don't understand what we truely stand for or what we believe in. Why don't they talk about all the other people who are NON mormons who said yes to prop 8? Its rediculous. Its simply insane, idk...

[Islander]

This all baffles me...I simply don't get it. I think that the people that are protesting against the church, simply don't understand what we truely stand for or what we believe in. Why don't they talk about all the other people who are NON mormons who said yes to prop 8? Its rediculous. Its simply insane, idk...

Of course they understand it, and they abhor it!! The amount of hate speech, intimidation and, plain simple, persecution unleashed agains members of the church has no parallel in recent history. But of course, it is still OK to bash the LDS' since it seems we do not fit into any protected class. So political correctness does not apply to us.

[LittleWyvern]

I don't understand this. If people think that Prop 8 is morally wrong, why blame the Mormons? The political process itself is amoral. If people want to attack Prop 8 on moral or constitutional grounds, that makes sense, but to make this about the Mormons only will never accomplish anything.

This is why I think the No on 8 crowd lost in a blue state (it parallels, sorta, why McCain lost as well). While the no on 8 crowd wanted to make the campaign about those evil Mormons, the yes on 8 crowd wanted to make the campaign about every traditional family (while McCain wanted to make the campaign about how evil Obama was, Obama wanted to make it about everybody). If the "marriage equality" movement is to have any success in the future, they need to stop bashing the Mormons.

[bytor2112]

While the no on 8 crowd wanted to make the campaign about those evil Mormons, the yes on 8 crowd wanted to make the campaign about every traditional family (while McCain wanted to make the campaign about how evil Obama was, Obama wanted to make it about everybody).

Of course McCain was right and the no on 8 crowd was wrong.......:eek:

[LittleWyvern]

Of course McCain was right and the no on 8 crowd was wrong.......:eek:

huh?

I just was remarking on how these two events paralleled each other. I did not mean to make any conclusions on either event.

[bytor2112]

huh?

I just was remarking on how these two events paralleled each other. I did not mean to make any conclusions on either event.

I was just remarking......... adding my two cents....not indicting you for your comments :)

[Maxel]

I don't understand this. If people think that Prop 8 is morally wrong, why blame the Mormons? The political process itself is amoral. If people want to attack Prop 8 on moral or constitutional grounds, that makes sense, but to make this about the Mormons only will never accomplish anything.

Because, in general, it seems that immoral movements get farther in any given situation using pathos instead of logic. The less the people know, and the more they can be made to feel misplaced emotions, the more ignorant they are kept.

What's more emotional: an overbearing, established religion misguidedly trying to suppress the rights of a minority, or a religious organization using Constitutional means to combat an issue they see as moral? If they can paint the issue in the former light, the uninformed will not realize that the real situationis the latter.

They won't accomplish anything until the majority of active U.S. citizens (i.e., those who vote) are duped by that kind of argument. Then... we're in trouble, as a nation.

[LittleWyvern]

Yes, pathos can be quite effective. However, the marriage equality movement is on the defensive now. In order to have success legally (that is their only angle of attack, at least until 2012), they'll have to run a campaign on ethos rather than pathos.

[ruthiechan]

But they start the pathos NOW, so that if they don't get their way in the courts they can put it to the vote of the people and still get their way in four years.

[Maxel]

Heh... Gives us more time to fortify our lives, then.

Still, when it comes down to the people viewing the issue on an individual scale, I still think that any amoral movement won't come to fruition until they dupe the general populace with those kind of arguments. They present a logical front, but when tried against logic grounded in the Gospel, the 'understanding of the wise men perish'. Hopefully, that won't be for a while longer in this case...

[Hemidakota]

Of course they understand it, and they abhor it!! The amount of hate speech, intimidation and, plain simple, persecution unleashed agains members of the church has no parallel in recent history. But of course, it is still OK to bash the LDS' since it seems we do not fit into any protected class. So political correctness does not apply to us.

telestial beings will only have five-minutes of eternal time before they are removed....

[Hemidakota]

But they start the pathos NOW, so that if they don't get their way in the courts they can put it to the vote of the people and still get their way in four years.

Usually they will back door everything since they cannot at the current time muster enough support. Now, through corruptive court systems, as seen in Nephi's time, they are striving to alter the laws of the land. Perhaps, it is time to bring the 'weight of nature' upon this land.

[Just_A_Guy]

I think the outcome of the California Fair Practices investigation and the IRS investigation will be of interest to all Mormons.

I've not heard that an IRS investigation is even going forward. From what I understand of the case law, I think it most unlikely that the Church's Prop 8 activities will be deemed to have arisen to the level of "substantial involvement".

I'm unfamiliar with much of the California Fair Political Practices Act, but I understand the underlying investigation was instigated at Fred Karger's request. Several of his allegations (busloads of Mormons brought in from Utah; missionaries set to campaigning) are outright lies, and as for his under-reporting allegation my understanding is that the Church has until the end of this month to make its final report anyways.

Liberal Mormons are hoping the LDS leadership is finally going to get its comeuppance for daring to disagree with them. I don't think it's gonna happen.

[Just_A_Guy]

Apparently the Church just filed its final disclosure statement with the California Secretary of State. The price tag is significantly higher than most previously believed--apparently on the order of $190,000, per the Sacramento Bee.

[Maxel]

Hm, the link you posted has little information. I would be interested in knowing exactly how the extra money was spend, other than 'using Salt Lake City facilities' and 'paying employees'.

Would be interesting to follow this story. Thanks, Just_A_Guy.

[Just_A_Guy]

Maxel, the Bee now has a better article on its home page. It appears they're getting their coverage from the San Francisco Chronicle and the Salt Lake Tribune, both of which have an obvious interest in milking the story for all it's worth.

[Angelao]

Here's a better breakdown, from the CA Secretary of State:

California Secretary of State - CalAccess - Campaign Finance

They didn't report what they were supposed to report when they were supposed to report it. There is a pretty big gap between their initial amount of $2078 and $180,000. The current investigation looks warranted, considering these new numbers that are suddenly coming to light.

[Moksha]

Here's a better breakdown, from the CA Secretary of State:

California Secretary of State - CalAccess - Campaign Finance

Smokin' Mo's BBQ? Must be some of those California Mormons! No smokin' in Utah...

[Maxel]

Thanks for that post, Angelao. Helps a lot with understanding the situation.

I fear this is where my general naivete with money and government comes to light. Looking over the site cited, a few questions come to mind.

1) Is this listing contributions made from the Church to support prop. 8, or payments made to the church and other entities? The category 'Payee' confuses me. I am assuming the 'Payee' is the person who made the contribution, although the more appropriate term would seem (to me) to be 'Payer'. If the 'Payee' is actually the organization listed next to the amount, then who actually gave the payee the money?

2) Where is the $180/$190k estimate coming from? The two largest contributions (totaling $118k) are from the LDS Church, granted, but the rest are from sources that are not the LDS church. I do see a lot of contributions from 'Marriot, Marc K' and other names I recognize as affiliates of the Church, but nothing beyond the $118k seems to come from the Church proper.

3) All the payment types are 'Non-Monetary'. If they're not monetary payments... what kind are they?

4) Is this an investigation into how much money was expended by the Church to fight for Proposition 8 in general, or how much money was donated by the Church for some governmental agency officially campaigning for Proposition 8? Does a difference between the two matter when it comes to this issue- that is, if the Church is running an operation separate from an official, governmental campaign for Proposition 8, does that still count as money 'donated' to the campaign? Please understand I know very little of how the political system works in these situations, and my question is spawned of a large amount of ignorance.

5) Under the 'Expenditures Made' option, the two largest contributions are marked as 'Compensated staff time' and 'Use of facilities and equipment'. I would be interested to know what those staff members were working on, which facilities and equipment was used, and what they were used for.

Lots of questions- most of them rising from ignorance on my end, no doubt.

I'm waiting for an official statement from someone in the Church before I make up my mind. Apparently, no one has been able to get an official response yet.

[john doe]

Maybe it's just me, but it seems to be some people making a mountain out of a molehill. I think it's just a case of not knowing all of the things they were supposed to report. I haven't seen anyone in authority for the State of California say that the LDS Church has been trying to hide anything they did. I believe this kind of thing happens all the time. But I'll bet the same people who are squawking about this are turning a blind eye to their guy Obama's new treasury man who can't seem to understand that not paying taxes might be illegal and/or unethical.

[john doe]

Maxel, I had the same problem, but then I clicked on the button marked 'expenditures made'. It appears the report shows that the LDS Church paid businesses and individuals for services rendered, and reimbursed some people for some expenses they incurred while working on the campaign. They also reported the salaries made to paid staff (I assume that means Church employees who were assigned to work on it) and the value of church-owned facilities and equipment used on the campaign.