Hybrid Commandments?

[Connie]

D&C 1:38

What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

D&C 68:4

And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.

First lines Hymn #21 and #22

"Come, listen to a prophets voice, And hear the word of God,"

"We listen to a prophet's voice and hear the Savior too."

[applepansy]

All suggestion and counsel... from who? From the Prophet? The 12? The 70? The General Relief Society? Area Authority? Stake President? Bishop? RS President? Visiting teachers?

We get lots of suggestion and counsel from lots of people. Who's is to be regarded as Gospel / Doctrine, and who's is to be taken as really, really good advice?

If it comes direct from the Lord to me, there is no question.

Janice

Janice I need some clarification here.

"If it comes from the Lord to you, there is no question." I agree.

But, what if it comes from the Lord, to the Prophet, to you? Maybe a better question is: Do you believe in modern revelation through our Prophet? Is President Monson a prophet and as such authorized to speak for the Lord?

applepansy

[Wingnut]

Janice, I don't think that there's anyone following this thread that doesn't know that your point is to criticize those of us who judged you for not following the prophets' counsel on modesty. If you are criticizing us for judging you, does that really make you any better?

[Wingnut]

All suggestion and counsel... from who? From the Prophet? The 12? The 70? The General Relief Society? Area Authority? Stake President? Bishop? RS President? Visiting teachers?

We get lots of suggestion and counsel from lots of people. Who's is to be regarded as Gospel / Doctrine, and who's is to be taken as really, really good advice?

If it comes direct from the Lord to me, there is no question.

Janice

If you had bothered to read my first post on this thread, you would understand the context:

As far as I am concerned, whether it is a commandment or counsel, that which the Lord counsels becomes a commandment to Gordon B. Hinckley. I hope it does to you.

[Janice]

But, what if it comes from the Lord, to the Prophet, to you? Maybe a better question is: Do you believe in modern revelation through our Prophet? Is President Monson a prophet and as such authorized to speak for the Lord?

I'm glad you asked that so we can clear that up. Absolutely.

I can honestly say I have never had a problem with anything spoken by a modern day Prophet. Some of the things they have said have caused me a lot of pain (ie: Benson's talk on pride), but it has been a good pain... the recognition that I need to improve kind-of pain.

I mentioned Benson's preaching on women staying home and not working. (Thank you, btw, for your honesty on this topic. It was very heart warming.) This caused me MUCH heart ache. Not at the time because I was too young, but later in life when I began to think about going to work. I won't go into detail, but I'll just say that my hubby and I fasted, prayed, spent time in the temple, received multiple blessings, and talked to our SP about it.

I was young at the time with our first in kindergarten and second in diapers. It was a gut wrenching choice. And, after all the due-diligence on our part, I felt like seeking a job as a school teacher was the RIGHT thing to do. But, I was confused by this, because of all that has been said by Benson and other leaders since. I did not trust my self. Was what I was feeling inspiration? Or was it desperation as we were on the brink of loosing our home?

We went to the SP, explained everything, told him of the feelings we had received while fasting and praying in the temple, and his exact words, EXACT words, were, "I suggest you apply for that job. Know that you do so with my blessings."

I cried for days.

Then, after all of that, people lined up to point fingers at me and tell me I was flaunting the words of our Prophets.

Janice

[lusciouschaos]

on the sunday stuff, I like to think about it differently. on Sunday, the Lord doesn't want to hand me a list of things not to do but wants me to use my agency to seek ways to spend the day with him in spirit. then the choices to do or not do something become much clearer.

[Janice]

If you had bothered to read my first post on this thread, you would understand the context:

I don't like your tone. I have been nothing but polite.

[Janice]

on the sunday stuff, I like to think about it differently. on Sunday, the Lord doesn't want to hand me a list of things not to do but wants me to use my agency to seek ways to spend the day with him in spirit. then the choices to do or not do something become much clearer.

Well said. Thank you. :)

[lusciouschaos]

i usually just spend most of the day napping so not much controversy

[Elgama]

We have the Holy Ghost - when it is time for the counsel from the Lord to sink in, we will be taught it. However like Applepansy over time I am learning even my local leaders have a place here, I have always been amazed about how if I listen to my Branch and Stake President carefully, that I am more prepared for General Conference, or the Ensign coming through my door,

Same goes with many of the talks, in Sacrament often they preempt the teaching in General Conference.

-Charley

[Connie]

"By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation."

Family Proclamation

I don't see anything wrong with the woman working if the situation warrants it.

[Misshalfway]

I think someone important said this.....

...."teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves."

:)

[MorningStar]

I can't imagine an RS pres. saying something like that. I can see her having that opinion though.

I think the words of the prophets should be followed. I don't consider them to be "hybrid commandments".

[Misshalfway]

I don't think that the counsel of the prophets is "hybrid" and I don't think that is what the OP is saying. I think what happens is that we hear some piece of counsel and we either globalize it for everyone inappropriately or we interpret it fundamentally while someone else sees a broader view and then we start nitpicking at each other over the tiniest things....most of which don't really reflect our righteousness anyway.

I don't think that following the prophets means that everything we do is doctrine. I think what it means is that we are familiar enough with the Holy Ghost and how it works from moment to moment and discourse to discourse that we understand that it is really the Holy Ghost we follow. And I think sometimes we think we understand what the brethren are trying to say but really fail to get the message. I think it is really all about balance. I wish we talked more about balance in the church.

[applepansy]

I'm glad you asked that so we can clear that up. Absolutely.

I can honestly say I have never had a problem with anything spoken by a modern day Prophet. Some of the things they have said have caused me a lot of pain (ie: Benson's talk on pride), but it has been a good pain... the recognition that I need to improve kind-of pain.

I mentioned Benson's preaching on women staying home and not working. (Thank you, btw, for your honesty on this topic. It was very heart warming.) This caused me MUCH heart ache. Not at the time because I was too young, but later in life when I began to think about going to work. I won't go into detail, but I'll just say that my hubby and I fasted, prayed, spent time in the temple, received multiple blessings, and talked to our SP about it.

I was young at the time with our first in kindergarten and second in diapers. It was a gut wrenching choice. And, after all the due-diligence on our part, I felt like seeking a job as a school teacher was the RIGHT thing to do. But, I was confused by this, because of all that has been said by Benson and other leaders since. I did not trust my self. Was what I was feeling inspiration? Or was it desperation as we were on the brink of loosing our home?

We went to the SP, explained everything, told him of the feelings we had received while fasting and praying in the temple, and his exact words, EXACT words, were, "I suggest you apply for that job. Know that you do so with my blessings."

I cried for days.

Then, after all of that, people lined up to point fingers at me and tell me I was flaunting the words of our Prophets.

Janice

Janice,

Now I have another question. Maybe tougher, maybe not. If you believe that the Prophet speaks and acts for the Lord on earth, then by extension of his prophetic power, wouldn't those people, whom he has are called to General Authority positions . . are they not in a position to receive the power of revelatioin over their stewardships? Isn't their counsel important too?

We personally have stewardship over ourselves and our children, which then gives us the right to receive revelation on behalf of ourselves and our children. Bishops receive stewardship and the right to receive revelation for and on behalf of all Ward members. Likewise, Stake Presidents have stewardship and the right to receive revelation for the Stake. Etc. Etc. Etc. There is a line of authority.

Therefore, when a General Authority makes a suggestion if we ignore it, then what? We just say they are only people, their position/calling isn't "prophet" so it doesn't matter? To me it becomes a issue of faith and obedience. Even if we don't agree, if we are obedient we will be blessed, abundantly.

I applaud you're efforts to find the will or the Lord in your life, especially when you felt that working outside the home was against what the Prophet had counseled. You were obedient. You and your husband followed the prescribed process. What other people think doesn't matter. It hurts, yes. . .but you shouldn't pay attention anymore than the Prophet Joseph Smith did. You go forward with faith.

I would like to humbly suggest you put this same process to work in finding out about the teachings you don't agree with.

applepansy

[MorningStar]

Does "hybrid commandment" = prophetic counsel I don't like?

[applepansy]

Does "hybrid commandment" = prophetic counsel I don't like?

Excellent Question. . . Janice is that what it means?

[Janice]

Janice,

Now I have another question. Maybe tougher, maybe not. If you believe that the Prophet speaks and acts for the Lord on earth, then by extension of his prophetic power, wouldn't those people, whom he has are called to General Authority positions . . are they not in a position to receive the power of revelatioin over their stewardships? Isn't their counsel important too?

Well, I don't know how to answer that. By that logic, my RS President was right when she said we should never watch football on Sunday, and from this point on, all within the sound of her voice who did it would be committing a sin.

After all, she was called by the Bishop, who was called by the Stake President, who was called by.... up the rungs to the Prophet. (I don't actually know who calls a SP.)

At some point, we HAVE to start filtering what people say through our own life experiences and personal inspiration, and not just accepting everything that is said as Gospel Truth.

Janice

[Janice]

Does "hybrid commandment" = prophetic counsel I don't like?

No. I thought I was clear on this, but I guess not.

"hybrid commandment" = An actual commandment mingled with church leadership suggestions and personal/family tradition to form a deeply held personal belief that is then assumed to be an actual commandment and is used to judge not only yourself, but everyone else too.

Example of a Hybrid Commandment: Thou shalt not watch football on Sunday

This might work well for my RSP's family, but that does not mean that all families should live by it.

Janice

[Misshalfway]

No. I thought I was clear on this, but I guess not.

"hybrid commandment" = An actual commandment mingled with church leadership suggestions and personal/family tradition to form a deeply held personal belief that is then assumed to be an actual commandment and is used to judge not only yourself, but everyone else too.

Example of a Hybrid Commandment: Thou shalt not watch football on Sunday

This might work well for my RSP's family, but that does not mean that all families should live by it.

Janice

I agree with this. Spirit of the law vs. letter of the law. We all need the letter because it gets us to the spiritual, you know? But sometimes we stumble over the letter because our vision hasn't expanded properly yet.

[Wingnut]

After all, she was called by the Bishop, who was called by the Stake President, who was called by.... up the rungs to the Prophet. (I don't actually know who calls a SP.)

Actually, a bishop is called by the First Presidency. A stake president is called by the Quorum of the Twelve.

[applepansy]

Well, I don't know how to answer that. By that logic, my RS President was right when she said we should never watch football on Sunday, and from this point on, all within the sound of her voice who did it would be committing a sin.

After all, she was called by the Bishop, who was called by the Stake President, who was called by.... up the rungs to the Prophet. (I don't actually know who calls a SP.)

At some point, we HAVE to start filtering what people say through our own life experiences and personal inspiration, and not just accepting everything that is said as Gospel Truth.

Janice

The logic is still sound even if you don't agree with the RS President. The question then becomes "Am I willing to be obedient?"

I know from personal experience what is feels like to disagree with a local leader. In my case a bishop. The circumstances are irrelevant but the situation applies. I disagreed strongly with my bishop regarding my son (age 12 at the time). I was so upset I went to my parents about the problem. My Dad did not get into specifics with me. All he said was "We are commanded to be obedient to our leaders. If you are obedient to your bishop, whether he's right or wrong, you will be blessed." I had not acted on my disagreement. I had not verbalized my disagreement to anyone except my parents. It was in my heart. . .I had hardened my heart. I fasted and prayed. I softened my heart and made an appointment with the bishop to apologize for my thoughts. I had not sustained and supported him in my heart. I confessed that and apologized. I surprised him a bit.

What happened afterwards is the key. By my obedience to Heavenly Father's commandment to sustain, support and be obedient to my local leader, doors were opened and the truth became known. The light of Christ shown in every corner and the eyes of many were opened, including the bishop's. I was blessed. My son was blessed. My family was blessed.

So lets talk about what happens when a RS President says we shouldn't watch TV on Sunday. . . We then have a choice. Do we heed her counsel? (Does she maybe know or understand something we don't?) Do we disregard her counsel and watch TV anyway?

There are consequences whether we are obedient or not. The ones for obedience are greater blessings.

I would hope that your RS President was mindful of the new-member-sister who was upset to tears. If not I would hope that whomever is sitting next to that new sister is mindful and explains why the RS President would say something like that. Not watching TV on Sunday is not a new idea. . . we've been counseled for years about activities that bring the spirit closer and those that don't. I'm sure there would be several sisters around who could lovingly explain or at least bring the concern to the RS President to address.

Janice, this principal of authority is true. We can choose to be obedient to our leaders or just dismiss their counsel. Its our choice. We have our agency.

My question now is . . . What are you going to do about the things, which have been taught by General Authorities, which you don't agree with?

I don't expect an answer. This is personal. You need to answer that question in your heart. If you struggle with something you don't agree with, make it a matter of fasting and prayer. Talk to your husband. Talk with your Bishop/Branch President or Stake President.

You will be in my prayers,

applepansy

P.S. Stake Presidents are called by the Quorum of the Twelve and a General Authority extends the calling (Apostle or Seventy). All Bishop callings are approved by the First Presidency.

Edited February 3, 2009 by applepansy

[applepansy]

Personally I don't believe in Hybrid Commandments by either definition. Commandments are commandments. We know who they are from. We choose whether we're obedient or not. . .and therefore choose the consequences.

Any abiguity in commandments is easily remedied by searching the scriptures or talking with local Priesthood Authority. Or even by listening to Conference or reading the Conference issues of the Ensign.

applepansy

Edited February 3, 2009 by applepansy
addition

[Misshalfway]

Personally I don't believe in Hybrid Commandments by either definition. Commandments are commandments. We know who they are from. We choose whether we're obedient or not. . .and therefore choose the consequences.

Any abiguity in commandments is easily remedied by searching the scriptures or talking with local Priesthood Authority.

applepansy

Yeah.....I agree but then there are the things are aren't either one. The law is keeping the sabbath day holy. There are lots of ways of keeping that law and stumbling over the individual definitions is, in my opinion, missing the point --- or at least stumbling over it.

And just one more thought......RS Presidents don't make doctrine. I agree with Wing in that she may have her opinion and that may work for her.....but that doesn't mean that how she interprets the law is always correct. I think the Lord does allow us some breathing room here. And I don't think we should believe everything we hear at church. If that were true then I would be praying to flowers, following five easy steps to Godhood and paying whatever tithing I felt I could.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Misshalfway

[Moksha]

And good luck trying to find out what the "Official Doctrine" is. If you figure it out without resorting to circular logic, mental gymnastics, and a good case of cog dis let me know.

Well this is something highlighted on the Church's website:

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.

Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.

Everybody has personal preferences and speculations, but if you follow the chain of how the statement came about you can determine if it is doctrine. Hope it helps.

.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Moksha