LDS view of Creation

[gaspah]

Evolution is directly observable so is undeniable, just look at the food we eat. Have a look at carrots today and then look at a wild carrot compared to the carrots were all used to.

now this is an observable direct result of evolution, as the second type of carrot didn't exist before humans influenced their evolution. Over a long long period of time humans replanted the biggest juiciest carrots, and hence the smaller carrots didn't get the chance to pass on their genes. This is the case with most of the vegetables we eat today, their naturally occurring(before human influence) cousins look nothing like what we eat today.

All of this however certainly not rule out that this was G-d's original intention, as he has a greater understanding of the universe than we can ever know.

[omega0401]

I do not believe in Intelligent Design, as expressed by Creationists. I do not believe that the earth was created in 7 short days of either 24 hours or 1000 years each. The earth is billions of years old.

I don't believe the earth is billions of years old. I do believe that the materials from which God made the earth is billions of years old. It does not mean that the earth itself is billions of years old. I believe that it is possible that the earth can be thousands of years old since the time God used materials that were billions of years old.

[FernRL]

I believe the earth is at least millions of years old, if not billions. I also think I could "prove" it using the scriptures. The short version goes kind of like this:

1. Someone needs to be at least 8 years old to be baptized.

2. The earth was "baptized" during the great Flood.

3. A day to the Lord is like a thousand years to man.

4. Figure out how many days are in 8 years.

5. Times that by 1,000 years.

6. Result: The earth is at least millions of years old.

[omega0401]

I believe the earth is at least millions of years old, if not billions. I also think I could "prove" it using the scriptures. The short version goes kind of like this:

1. Someone needs to be at least 8 years old to be baptized.

2. The earth was "baptized" during the great Flood.

3. A day to the Lord is like a thousand years to man.

4. Figure out how many days are in 8 years.

5. Times that by 1,000 years.

6. Result: The earth is at least millions of years old.

Fern, it makes logical sense but I'm not so sure that the earth has the same age requirements that people have. There is an obvious difference between the two. This age assumption may be right or it may be wrong. We don't seem to have enough knowledge to really know.

[Snow]

I don't believe the earth is billions of years old. I do believe that the materials from which God made the earth is billions of years old. It does not mean that the earth itself is billions of years old. I believe that it is possible that the earth can be thousands of years old since the time God used materials that were billions of years old.

I'm hoping you're not Mormon.

[Snow]

I believe the earth is at least millions of years old, if not billions. I also think I could "prove" it using the scriptures. The short version goes kind of like this:

1. Someone needs to be at least 8 years old to be baptized.

2. The earth was "baptized" during the great Flood.

3. A day to the Lord is like a thousand years to man.

4. Figure out how many days are in 8 years.

5. Times that by 1,000 years.

6. Result: The earth is at least millions of years old.

That's not proof. That's gibberish.

[Snow]

Evolution is directly observable so is undeniable, just look at the food we eat. Have a look at carrots today and then look at a wild carrot compared to the carrots were all used to.

now this is an observable direct result of evolution, as the second type of carrot didn't exist before humans influenced their evolution. Over a long long period of time humans replanted the biggest juiciest carrots, and hence the smaller carrots didn't get the chance to pass on their genes. This is the case with most of the vegetables we eat today, their naturally occurring(before human influence) cousins look nothing like what we eat today.

All of this however certainly not rule out that this was G-d's original intention, as he has a greater understanding of the universe than we can ever know.

Even those that disagree with the theory of modern evolutionary synthesis do not reject evolution of carrots.

[pam]

I believe the earth is at least millions of years old, if not billions. I also think I could "prove" it using the scriptures. The short version goes kind of like this:

1. Someone needs to be at least 8 years old to be baptized.

2. The earth was "baptized" during the great Flood.

3. A day to the Lord is like a thousand years to man.

4. Figure out how many days are in 8 years.

5. Times that by 1,000 years.

6. Result: The earth is at least millions of years old.

Huh? Uhhhh sure...that certainly proves it.

[Maxel]

I don't believe the earth is billions of years old. I do believe that the materials from which God made the earth is billions of years old. It does not mean that the earth itself is billions of years old. I believe that it is possible that the earth can be thousands of years old since the time God used materials that were billions of years old.

I'm hoping you're not Mormon.

It doesn't matter if omega is or not. There's no hard, definite revelation on the matter, and a Mormon in good standing before God can believe the Earth is 8,000 or 8,000,000,000 years old without contradicting revealed truth.

Evolution is directly observable so is undeniable, just look at the food we eat. Have a look at carrots today and then look at a wild carrot compared to the carrots were all used to.

now this is an observable direct result of evolution, as the second type of carrot didn't exist before humans influenced their evolution. Over a long long period of time humans replanted the biggest juiciest carrots, and hence the smaller carrots didn't get the chance to pass on their genes. This is the case with most of the vegetables we eat today, their naturally occurring(before human influence) cousins look nothing like what we eat today.

All of this however certainly not rule out that this was G-d's original intention, as he has a greater understanding of the universe than we can ever know.

Wasn't the great mandate to Adam and Eve to replenish the earth and subdue it? Seems to me that positive human influence on the evolution of plants and animals is a requirement for God's plan.

[Snow]

It doesn't matter if omega is or not.

It does matter. Mormons believe that the Glory of God is intelligence.

There's no hard, definite revelation on the matter, and a Mormon in good standing before God can believe the Earth is 8,000 or 8,000,000,000 years old without contradicting revealed truth.

Perhaps, but not without contradicting common sense, intelligence and science.

[gaspah]

Wasn't the great mandate to Adam and Eve to replenish the earth and subdue it? Seems to me that positive human influence on the evolution of plants and animals is a requirement for God's plan.

sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I'm in total agreance that evolution was part of G-d's plan. As i said earlier in this thread, the only places where my take on evolution separates from those of non-religious science types is that it was G-d's original intention and that humanity was a separate blessing from G-d given to a vessel that evolved.

[FernRL]

Ok, fine. I'll be a little more serious.

I think the earth could be billions of years old, or merely thousands of years (since life was formed here [again], in a possibly recycled planet.) I don't think it really matters.

I do believe that we are all totally descended from Adam, who was banished from the Garden of Eden distinctly within the last 10,000 years.

Therefore, I don't believe that the dating methods are totally accurate which show ancestral modern humans dotting the earth with civilizations as much as 40,000 years ago.

I believe that carbon dating becomes inaccurate when the amount of carbon-14 taken in by living plants and animals was much less than it is now. I suspect that at the time of Noah there was an increase in cosmic rays which increased the amount of C-14 in the atmosphere, increased the likelihood of rain (resulting in The Flood with its rainbow afterward,) and decreased life spans (from the 900-some odd years of the Antediluvian patriarchs.)

I just searched for more information about carbon-14 dating and found this:

Doesn?t Carbon-14 Dating Disprove the Bible? - Answers in Genesis

Which article, in some ways, supports my general idea.

[omega0401]

I'm hoping you're not Mormon.

Yes I am. True blue through and through. What point are you trying to make?

[Snow]

Yes I am. True blue through and through. What point are you trying to make?

That as a Mormon you ought to be more inclined towards education and common sense.

[omega0401]

That as a Mormon you ought to be more inclined towards education and common sense.

Really? Education and common sense should have told you how to find out if I was a Mormon. Since you didn't know, well I guess you don't have any.

When you can add something more constructive than insults your posts will be worth reading.

[Maxel]

Let's not descend to mud slinging...

[omega0401]

Let's not descend to mud slinging...

Mud slinging? This thread is about the creation right? Just kidding. It isn't my desire to go there either.

[omega0401]

I just searched for more information about carbon-14 dating and found this:

Doesn?t Carbon-14 Dating Disprove the Bible? - Answers in Genesis

Which article, in some ways, supports my general idea.

Good article Fern. Carbon-14 may not be the perfect method. It just goes to show we just don't have all the information yet even when some think we do. I think there's still so much we don't know yet about how the creation came about.

[Maxel]

I believe the earth is at least millions of years old, if not billions. I also think I could "prove" it using the scriptures. The short version goes kind of like this:

1. Someone needs to be at least 8 years old to be baptized.

2. The earth was "baptized" during the great Flood.

3. A day to the Lord is like a thousand years to man.

4. Figure out how many days are in 8 years.

5. Times that by 1,000 years.

6. Result: The earth is at least millions of years old.

I think you bring up some interesting points. I understand that this 'proof' you are offering is not intended as actual proof, but as examples from valid doctrine that support your theory.

The idea of the earth being 'baptized' during the great Flood isn't new to me, but the corollary that it must have been at least 8 'years' old is new and, in my opinion, intriguing. It makes one wonder, what internal processes have matured enough inside a person by age 8 that they are ready to be baptized then? Of course, the 8-year rule is not universal (for example, those with mental retardation are not baptized at 8) but it is the rule. If we go further and assume that the baptism by fire will be given the Sunday following the baptism by water, we might assume that the Earth's baptism by fire- that is, the second coming of Christ- would happen anywhere between 1,000-7,500 years after the initial baptism by water. (The 7.5k high-end of that range is due to the additional 'hours' and 'minutes' that might separate the baptism by water and the receiving of the Holy Ghost)

It is an interesting theory...

[Snow]

Really? Education and common sense should have told you how to find out if I was a Mormon. Since you didn't know, well I guess you don't have any.

When you can add something more constructive than insults your posts will be worth reading.

Let's see.

I asked you if you were Mormon.

You told me you were Mormon

Yet somehow you claim that I don't have enough sense to find out if you are Mormon.

Uh-huh.

[Snow]

I just searched for more information about carbon-14 dating and found this:

Doesn?t Carbon-14 Dating Disprove the Bible? - Answers in Genesis

Which article, in some ways, supports my general idea.

I wouldn't get too excited. Any site that makes the laughable claim: "Whatever the source of the carbon-14, its presence in nearly every sample tested worldwide is a strong challenge to an ancient age. Carbon-14 data is now firmly on the side of the young-earth view of history" is a joke.

[john doe]

Let's try to be nice, people. It's possible to disagree with another's conclusions without insulting them or their intelligence.

[FernRL]

I think you bring up some interesting points. I understand that this 'proof' you are offering is not intended as actual proof, but as examples from valid doctrine that support your theory.

The idea of the earth being 'baptized' during the great Flood isn't new to me, but the corollary that it must have been at least 8 'years' old is new and, in my opinion, intriguing. It makes one wonder, what internal processes have matured enough inside a person by age 8 that they are ready to be baptized then? Of course, the 8-year rule is not universal (for example, those with mental retardation are not baptized at 8) but it is the rule. If we go further and assume that the baptism by fire will be given the Sunday following the baptism by water, we might assume that the Earth's baptism by fire- that is, the second coming of Christ- would happen anywhere between 1,000-7,500 years after the initial baptism by water. (The 7.5k high-end of that range is due to the additional 'hours' and 'minutes' that might separate the baptism by water and the receiving of the Holy Ghost)

It is an interesting theory...

At one time I was really serious about looking at the earth's age like that, but this time I was being a little facetious.

It just goes along with something I had heard before: "You can prove anything using the Bible." Add a few modern scriptures and.... Well, I think a lot of this doesn't really matter, as long as we know that whatever is proven by science doesn't mean the Gospel isn't true, that there is no God, etc.

[rameumptom]

I'm hoping you're not Mormon.

Can you be any more insulting? I personally have an open mind towards evolution, etc. I believe the earth to be 4 billion years old.

That said, it does not give anyone the right to be this insulting to another person, who disagrees. Vigorously defend your beliefs if you will, Snow, but don't insult others who may be more righteously following the Lord than yourself.

Personally, I hope you don't treat others like this in person, as I'd hate to think of all the individuals that might have joined the Church, had you not insulted them so.

[rameumptom]

I personally consider Carbon-14 to be fairly accurate. It has been tested against other aging techniques, such as tree dating. Some clonal trees date tens of thousands of years ago: List of oldest trees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The oldest actual tree is almost 10,000 years old: World's Oldest Living Tree -- 9550 years old -- Discovered In Sweden

Ice at the two Poles also can be dated, as the layers of snow are laid down in annual layers. These show the earth to be at least 160,000 years old Ice Core Dating

Then there is dating using radio-isotopes. Given the constant half-lives of radioactive material, we can determine the age of many items for billions of years.

Finally, we can measure light at 186K miles/second. From this and color shifting of distant stars, we can see that the universe goes out almost 15 billion years. IOW, light has been traveling towards our planet from other stars for that amount of time. If God created the universe only a few thousand, or even million years ago, then the universe should not be 15 billion light years across.