Justice Posted February 15, 2009 Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 Many things man *thinks* he discovers proof on are changed as he learns more. Like the earth is flat. What you're looking for is sufficient evidence, not proof. There are some who saw angels appear to them and still did not believe. I would consider that proof from a physical standpoint. What everyone is saying is that the thngs of God are not discerned by physical means, or by any physical proof. There is sufficient evidence, to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted February 15, 2009 Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 Many things man *thinks* he discovers proof on are changed as he learns more.Like the earth is flat.What you're looking for is sufficient evidence, not proof. There are some who saw angels appear to them and still did not believe. I would consider that proof from a physical standpoint. What everyone is saying is that the thngs of God are not discerned by physical means, or by any physical proof.There is sufficient evidence, to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. You are on to something when you talk about evidence in relation to proof. The term we use in mathematics is necessary and sufficient. The truth is that very few require much proof of things they enjoy or want to believe and an overwhelming amount of evidence for things they do not want to believe. For example I have contended with many of my scientific friends that there is more evidence to support the LDS notion of G-d than there is evidence to support the popular notion that defines electrons. When was the last time you heard anyone demand proof that our notions of electrons is accurate?Most of us will entertain the possibility of string theory and additional dimensions that impact events in our universe but in the next breath demand complete and total proof before we will consider that G-d exist in dimensions outside our universe and has an impact on events that occur in our universe. There is a double standard.The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 I honestly didn't see your post before I made mine. Proof when related to heavely things is something I have thought a lot about. Plus, I think you're right. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrel Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 I agree that spiritual things cannot be proven by mans reasoning. They can only be discerned by the Spirit of God1 Corinthians 2: 11-12,1411. For what man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blusun7 Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Thats the scripture i wanted to give :) I know a guy who loves science and i always tell him that god gave us science but who do you think the real professor is? Proof is not how god works.He gave us proof?He is our father? He knows us and thats why there are many scriptures that tell about this proof you want but your not going to find in a tangible way. You in essence are acting like the teacher and god is the student?based on what he shows you. you will grade his authenticity. I just dont think it works like that. Keep searching and you will find what you looking for. Dont let anyone make fun of you if you are wanting to learn. There are so many stories in the book of mormon and bible that teach about things of this nature and how men thought they were wiser than god and made stuff up and asked for proof. Read and you will see that god showed them proof as a whole,which sometimes brought famine and plagues even destruction cause they mocked him. We are all headed in the same direction as a people in the world and you can see it on the news and everyday life. That is what you get when you stop believing in god and jesus. like i said you can see in on tv the effects. There is alot of proof in front of you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 This thread was started around proof concerning the Book of Mormon. Since there have been no post offered to prove or disprove the Book of Mormon - is anyone interested in evidence. Some say that there just are no reliable physical evidences of things spiritually based. I tend to disagree. Because people that live spiritual lives also have a physical existence there are references that can be tracked. Is anyone interested in a discussion of physical evidence and the possibilities presented in the evidence we have? For example; for Joseph Smith to accurately identify specific physical aspects related to the Book of Mormon from his place (North America) and time (1830) that were not known – can we conclude that Joseph Smith was more accurate about such things than his critics? And therefore more or less credible? In other words over the last 150 years (approximate) who has been more correct about physical aspects of the Book of Mormon. I contend that Joseph Smith is much more accurate than his critics. Is this an acceptable course? Are we willing to have an open discussion in physical evidences? In particular I would suggest that we use the Bible as the test case and that the Book of Mormon should at least be able to withstand physical historical evidence equal to the Bible and if so be considered reliable sacred text for LDS as the Bible has been for historical Christians? Should we use this thread or start a new thread? The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunkyTown Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 I'm not certain why this has caused such an uproar. Let's get back to the OP. To the OP: What sort of proof would make you accept that God is real? At what point would you say, "Wow. I have to change my life. I was wrong this whole time." A dream? Fire in the sky? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Einstein once said:"Science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. "This is aq uote from a 1939 address at Princeton Theological Seminary. This statement is just one of many he made throughout his life about science, religion, and God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxel Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Is anyone interested in a discussion of physical evidence and the possibilities presented in the evidence we have? For example; for Joseph Smith to accurately identify specific physical aspects related to the Book of Mormon from his place (North America) and time (1830) that were not known – can we conclude that Joseph Smith was more accurate about such things than his critics? And therefore more or less credible?...Is this an acceptable course? Are we willing to have an open discussion in physical evidences? In particular I would suggest that we use the Bible as the test case and that the Book of Mormon should at least be able to withstand physical historical evidence equal to the Bible and if so be considered reliable sacred text for LDS as the Bible has been for historical Christians? I like that idea! I've already cited a page of collected evidences for the Book of Mormon here; I think part of the problem with this thread is that everyone's pitched in and Science4life hasn't logged in since posting his initial question. That, and KoalaBear decided to be inflammatory.I think a thread such as the one you suggested above would be a great idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 My question is this: is there any proof that the Book of Mormon was inspired by God or from God in origin? And also, can any of you show me proof that Jesus is the son of God? Just curious.Did you ask GOD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 My question is this: is there any proof that the Book of Mormon was inspired by God or from God in origin? And also, can any of you show me proof that Jesus is the son of God? Just curious.I suspect you have asked that question many times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowLight Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 No one can show you through physical proof that the Book of Mormon was inspired by God or from God. The same applies to whether or not Jesus was the son of God. If there was physical PROOF, you would know about it right? I do not believe the LDS church to be true, but I do not have "authoritative proof" that says it isn't, and the same can be said for every other religion in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madriglace Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 I have never needed any other witness than the Spirit to know the truth we have today. However I think that some times the "proof" is delayed to give us hard headed humans a chance to bow to faith. Can one prove the existance of God??? Well maybe not physically but the proof of His work is all over the place. I have traveled in Peru and seen the proofs of the Book of Mormon. I have traveled in Mexico and seen and heard the proofs of the Saviors vist to this continent. I had a friend call me and tell me that scienctist thought that maybe some of the first people cam to the Americas in submarines .. to which I replied ... yeah I know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 I have never needed any other witness than the Spirit to know the truth we have today. However I think that some times the "proof" is delayed to give us hard headed humans a chance to bow to faith.Can one prove the existance of God??? Well maybe not physically but the proof of His work is all over the place. I have traveled in Peru and seen the proofs of the Book of Mormon. I have traveled in Mexico and seen and heard the proofs of the Saviors vist to this continent. I had a friend call me and tell me that scienctist thought that maybe some of the first people cam to the Americas in submarines .. to which I replied ... yeah I know! Just a point I find interesting. If G-d is the creator of our universe he would have to be a being beyond the dimensions of our universe. Therefore any proof of G-d that is valid within our universe would actually disprove G-d as the creator of the universe. And so we have a paradox. For those that demand proof of G-d are in reality demanding proof that would disprove his ability to be the very engine of our universe. The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 I don't know about the universe but I do know about our own backyard called a galaxy. :) Even if we are given a 'firsthand witness' of GOD, can it be told to the world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recon Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 · Hidden Hidden Is there any physical proof of God? Link to comment
RipplecutBuddha Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 My question is this: is there any proof that the Book of Mormon was inspired by God or from God in origin? And also, can any of you show me proof that Jesus is the son of God? Just curious.The problem with your questions rests in an unspoken assumption; that all of reality can be experienced by the five senses God has given us.As a scientific enthusiast I would hope you understand how faulty that assumption is. After all, we cannot 'prove' how gravity works despite the fact that it has worked consistently since the beginning of humanity. The truth is that to assume that mankind has a full grasp of reality based entirley upon what he has 'proved' to be true is to aggrandize mankind to the state of omniciense.Back to the topic at hand, no, there are no 'proofs' that estalbish either the Book of Mormon, or Jesus Christ. There is substantial evidence both in favor, and against either issue.The point is that these issues are matters of faith, not facts established by proof. If it were, then the Book of Mormon and Jesus Christ would be firmly accepted matters of history and/or science, and would have no connection with religion or philosophy at all.We are here to test our faith; to see how obedient we will be to a being we cannot prove exists. If we had that proof, the test would be invalidated. After all, would you willingly disobey a God you unquestioningly knew existed? It would destroy the whole point of the creation of the earth in the first place.In order to answer your question fully, though, you must begin an earnest study of the issue of faith itself; what it is, and what it is used for. After that, you will begin to understand where the proof is in our religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 No one can show you through physical proof that the Book of Mormon was inspired by God or from God. The same applies to whether or not Jesus was the son of God. If there was physical PROOF, you would know about it right? I do not believe the LDS church to be true, but I do not have "authoritative proof" that says it isn't, and the same can be said for every other religion in the world.One mans opinion is noted. Is there proof there evolution? Is there proof that our universe is infinite? Has someone traveled to a blackhole and witnessed a dieing star? Have you been to China and be a firsthand witness? Yet, what physical proof that you are placed within some matrics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 "proof" takes away agency. If you are shown something / someone you no longer have the choice to believe or not. It's only a choice so long as you can't say one way or another. Once you have made your choice though - that's when you get your proof... In what way does "proof take away agency" Changed? That just does not seem true. Take for example a stop sign. We see it & we know what it mean yet we can still chose to stop or not. That does not take away our agency at all. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. Can u give me and example of how that is true? It's not like gravity and being able to chose to obey it or not. :) Thanks Changed. I look forward to reading your thoughts on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Thank you for your thoughts. I'm now thinking about what u are saying here and my mind goes to Jesus and those that walked with him, knew who he claimed to be, knew he died then saw him in the upper room. What would u do that with based on what you're saying above. Does that mean that they "know" and therefore have no agency with their belief? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 But eventually the did. Remember, Thomas said "I will not believe" and then asked for proof, "Let let me touch your side" what about him according to what u are saying Changed? Thank u Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Thank u Changed, please read the first part of that quote again to see how what I'm saying is consistent with what I was trying to say and it opposite of what I thought u were saying, Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast aseen me, thou hast believed... (bold mine)I hope we can talk more about this stuff some other time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tru2u4eternity Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 If you had proof you wouldn't need faith which completely defeat that purpose of this life. Life has to lived by faith and all spiritual things of great signifigance like gaining a testimony of the scriptures require faith. there is no way around it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
japacific Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 of course there is no evidence. thats why its a religion and not science Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misshalfway Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 (edited) I think there is evidence. It just can't be measured the same way science can. The evidence or the light the knowledge comes to one person at a time ONLY when they obey the eternal law that makes the revelation of such evidence possible. You can't get it before you embark on the road and you can't borrow it from someone who has been traveling the road for some time. One can only be invited and spiritually enticed to leave the open way, and to walk the narrow one. The evidence IS there. But it is ONLY for those who have the eyes to see. I can't prove really that Jesus is the Christ or any other spiritual truth. What I can do is offer my life for someone to examine. I can show you the changes in me. I can share with you the blessings and miracles I see in my life and I can invite someone to come and taste it for themselves. So...to the OP. Come and learn of Jesus. Listen and read his words. Live his doctrine and see how it impacts your life. Give your sins away, and you will know Him and whether or not he is real. It is a journey that is wonderful, hard, and rewarding. It is the only way to know. Edited February 20, 2009 by Misshalfway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.