Do I understand the story of the making of the BoM correctly?

[prisonchaplain]

My understanding is that Joseph Smith was led by God (or the Holy Ghost) to find gold plates that contained writing in Reformed Egyptian. He did not know the language, but the Holy Spirit inspired him to write a translation (interpretation?) of the plates. The result of this work was the BoM. The English version is considered the inspired word of God.

If I have this right, is there any instruction or explanation for the unprecedanted act of God in inspiring someone to, purely by inspiration, translate a work transcribed in a dead and lost language? God can, of course, do anything. But this would surely qualify as one of God's more unusual miracles.

A related inquiry: The Bible is said to not contain certain lost and precious truths. Are those truths contained in the BoM? Do we have them all now, or is God revealing them gradually?

[Justice]

Oddly enough, until the Book of Mormon, the world knew very little about seer stones and Urim and Thummim. Within the pages of the Book of Mormon we see different prophets using these items to translate records from languages they couldn't understand.

Also, remember the premise behind the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. There was a global apostasy about 400 AD. That means that there were no inspired "seers" on the earth from 400AD until 1820 who *could* translate with a gift from God. This is why we claim we believe the Bible is true as far as it is translated correctly.

I'll have to search the Old Testament to see if there is any translating going on. But, for the most part, the Bible is about one tribe of the House of Israel... Judah. It's doubtful that there was much need for translation since their records were passed down from prophet to prophet.

One of the groups of people the Book of Mormon speaks about came from the Tower of Babel. The Lord led them away and He did not confound their language. But, the Nephites who discovered their record much later translated it in the same manner Jospeh Smith used.

There are many things the Bible does not contain a precedence for, but through modern revalation have been shown to us.

[Justice]

A related inquiry: The Bible is said to not contain certain lost and precious truths. Are those truths contained in the BoM? Do we have them all now, or is God revealing them gradually?

All things have not been revealed. In fact, Joseph Smith was only able to translate an abridgement of the ancient record, and for certain reasons, some of the authors were left entirely out of the book.

Mahonri Moriancumer (sp?), or the brother of Jared, is one of these prophets who's words have been hidden from us. Here is a little about him:

Ether 12:

23 And I said unto him: Lord, the Gentiles will mock at these things, because of our weakness in writing; for Lord thou hast made us mighty in word by faith, but thou hast not made us mighty in writing; for thou hast made all this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them;

24 And thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands. Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in writing like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he wrote were mighty even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them.

Church members anticipate the day we can read the brother of Jared's writings.

And as a side note, the Lord answered this prophet's concern about the seemingly awkward writing in the Book of Mormon:

25 Thou hast also made our words powerful and great, even that we cannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words.

26 And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness;

This is why testimonies of the Book of Mormon can come ONLY by an honest and sincere desire to know if it is of God. People who want to hang on to what they know, and think they know better about what God would do, will not read in humility and ask to know if it's true. They just mock the words.

He finished His explanation:

27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

28 Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of all righteousness.

Edited February 18, 2009 by Justice

[Guest tomk]

Have you read the Book of Mormon?

Everything is spelled-out in the introductory pages as far as what the book claims to be. The book stands on it's own. A witness of whether or not it is true only comes from the witness of the Holy Ghost. If the witness comes in any other way, it can fail.

God cannot do "anything". I am not sure where this falsehood originated or why it is perpetuated. But to say God can do anything is patently FALSE. Even God must adhere to the laws He has set forth. Within that framework, and as long as He leaves our moral agency intact -- yes He can do anything and everything necessary to bring us back home to Him -- and He has done so, through the instrumentality of His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

There are much more unusual and unprecedented miracles than the translation of the Book of Mormon!!!! Honestly, I am surprised you consider the translation of that book of scripture to be unusual. What I find much more unusual is the miracle of what God does inside of us as He sanctifies us and gently guides us home to Him as we learn to trust Him and surrender our will to Him. If you want an unusual miracle ... pick that one.

The "lost truths" you speak of have not all been revealed. They are to be had, but they are not to be found publicly. God reserves the manifestation of these "sealed" portions of Hs word unto Himself. He shares these truths with those who seek Him earnestly.

2 Ne. 9: 42

42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.

This is what is meant by the "narrow path" that leads to God. God (Jesus Christ) personally administers this path to us, one by one. Nobdy arrives in heaven by accident. There will be no "close calls". We will know we belong there, because we will know Him and will have formed a relationship with Him. We will know Him and He will know us! It will be natural and effortless in that respect - to enter His presence.

2 Ne. 9: 41

41 O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.

Christ administers the knowledge we lack to us personally. That knowledge that is not to be had from any earthly source, without which we cannot have a hope of returning to Him. Only He can give it to us when the veil is parted. It is the knowledge that we will be exalted. And we know it is sure, for the Redeemer Himself has spoken the words to us and made them sure.

Tom

Edited February 18, 2009 by tomk

[Justice]

Well, a lot of people who have a superficial understanding of what happened tend to think it would have been much easier for God to just hand Jospeh Smith a perfect, translated record. And, no doubt it would have been easier.

It takes a bit of reading and praying to see why it was necessary for Joseph Smith to translate the record.

After even just a cursory study one begins to see what it did for Joseph Smith's faith, and even confidence in himself in being able to do what the Lord asks, how the Lord would help him, about the importance of strict obedience, and how perfectly he learned to rely on the Lord... something he would need to learn to do.

[tubaloth]

My understanding is that Joseph Smith was led by God (or the Holy Ghost) to find gold plates that contained writing in Reformed Egyptian.

No that’s not really even close.

I think it was some three years after the First Vision (Joseph Smith is now around 17) and wondering where his standing with God is, prays for answers. This is when Moroni (the last prophet in the book of mormon) appears to Joseph Smith. You can read the full account here

Joseph Smith—History 1

After Moroni gives his message he leaves, and not long after Moroni comes again and gives for the most part the same massage again. Does this a total of three times in one night.

The next morning Joseph is helping his Dad on the farm. The Dad realizes something is wrong with Joseph (didn’t get any sleep). Sends Him home. On his way home Moroni appears again, and explains about the plates. Tells him where the plates are. Joseph then goes to the hill and finds them. Moroni tells Joseph Smith to come to this spot where the plates are for 4 years. Joseph Smith does, and gets the plates when he is 21.

He did not know the language, but the Holy Spirit inspired him to write a translation (interpretation?) of the plates.

YesThe result of this work was the BoM. The English version is considered the inspired word of God.

Yes.

If I have this right, is there any instruction or explanation for the unprecedanted act of God in inspiring someone to, purely by inspiration, translate a work transcribed in a dead and lost language?

God knew things would be lost over time from the Bible. The only way to add another witness with out having the same problems, is to bring it straight forth from a language that has to be translated by the power of God. Its really more a way for God to bring forth his work again in the latter days. The only way to do this was to add another witness for his name that the world can judge things by!

But this would surely qualify as one of God's more unusual miracles.

The Restoration as a whole is a pretty big deal! God needed to start it off right!

The Bible is said to not contain certain lost and precious truths. Are those truths contained in the BoM?

Yes some are cleared up with the help of the Book of Mormon.

Do we have them all now, or is God revealing them gradually?

We never know if we have ALL the truth! What we do know is we have what ever Truth God wants us to have for now. With the added understanding from the D &C and Pearl of Great Price we have enough of what God wants. But “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.”

[Book_of_Mormon_Warrior]

My understanding is that Joseph Smith was led by God (or the Holy Ghost) to find gold plates that contained writing in Reformed Egyptian. He did not know the language, but the Holy Spirit inspired him to write a translation (interpretation?) of the plates. The result of this work was the BoM. The English version is considered the inspired word of God.

If I have this right, is there any instruction or explanation for the unprecedanted act of God in inspiring someone to, purely by inspiration, translate a work transcribed in a dead and lost language? God can, of course, do anything. But this would surely qualify as one of God's more unusual miracles.

A related inquiry: The Bible is said to not contain certain lost and precious truths. Are those truths contained in the BoM? Do we have them all now, or is God revealing them gradually?

The plates has "the appearance of gold" but were probably some other ore or combination of.

He received the translation through the Urim & Thummim and Seer Stone, not just inspiration.

[prisonchaplain]

The plates has "the appearance of gold" but were probably some other ore or combination of.

He received the translation through the Urim & Thummim and Seer Stone, not just inspiration.

A quick question on the Urim and Thummim and Seer Stone--if I had them, and I came upon those plates, would I be able to interpet them--or was it the items in conjunction with inspiration from the Holy Spirit? Actually, it becomes a rather important distinction. Why? My sense is that there is a similarity between the purpose in Joseph's translating what he found and the pentecostal experience of tongues and interpretation. To explain:

The gift of tongues allows the speaker to offer a message from God to a congregation. However, this message is delivered in a language not understood ("Reformed Egyptian").

The gift of interpretation allows the speaker to interpret the tongues in the venacular of the people, so all may be edified by it.

BUT...

The gift of prophecy allows the speaker to offer the message from God in the venacular WITHOUT a gift of tongues being expressed.

So, why bother with the tongues? Why doesn't God just always bestow the gift of prophecy? Why have Joseph translate rather than just receive?

Oh, I know there are differences, and it may well be that one is a true gift and another is a corruption or distortion, or, perhaps an imperfect expression. Nevertheless, the parallels are interesting.

BTW, by way of disclosure, Tom, I've started but not finished the BoM. Those who know me are tsk tsking, because I started some time ago.

[LittleWyvern]

A quick question on the Urim and Thummim and Seer Stone--if I had them, and I came upon those plates, would I be able to interpet them--or was it the items in conjunction with inspiration from the Holy Spirit?

I'm sure it was with inspiration, but through the power of the seer stones. I'm not sure what exactly the process was, but I'd imagine the seer stones as at least a physical mnemonic.

Actually, it becomes a rather important distinction. Why? My sense is that there is a similarity between the purpose in Joseph's translating what he found and the pentecostal experience of tongues and interpretation. To explain:

The gift of tongues allows the speaker to offer a message from God to a congregation. However, this message is delivered in a language not understood ("Reformed Egyptian").

The gift of interpretation allows the speaker to interpret the tongues in the venacular of the people, so all may be edified by it.

BUT...

The gift of prophecy allows the speaker to offer the message from God in the venacular WITHOUT a gift of tongues being expressed.

So, why bother with the tongues? Why doesn't God just always bestow the gift of prophecy? Why have Joseph translate rather than just receive?

Perhaps it was meant to spiritually strengthen Joseph Smith. Besides, he was going to lead the new church so he needed at least some practice with priesthood power and responsibility.

[Hemidakota]

A quick question on the Urim and Thummim and Seer Stone--if I had them, and I came upon those plates, would I be able to interpet them--or was it the items in conjunction with inspiration from the Holy Spirit? Actually, it becomes a rather important distinction. Why? My sense is that there is a similarity between the purpose in Joseph's translating what he found and the pentecostal experience of tongues and interpretation. To explain:

The gift of tongues allows the speaker to offer a message from God to a congregation. However, this message is delivered in a language not understood ("Reformed Egyptian").

The gift of interpretation allows the speaker to interpret the tongues in the venacular of the people, so all may be edified by it.

BUT...

The gift of prophecy allows the speaker to offer the message from God in the venacular WITHOUT a gift of tongues being expressed.

So, why bother with the tongues? Why doesn't God just always bestow the gift of prophecy? Why have Joseph translate rather than just receive?

Oh, I know there are differences, and it may well be that one is a true gift and another is a corruption or distortion, or, perhaps an imperfect expression. Nevertheless, the parallels are interesting.

BTW, by way of disclosure, Tom, I've started but not finished the BoM. Those who know me are tsk tsking, because I started some time ago.

They would not work. Unless the Lord calls you directly or one of His ministering servants, then you are only looking at glass crystals.

[Book_of_Mormon_Warrior]

A quick question on the Urim and Thummim and Seer Stone--if I had them, and I came upon those plates, would I be able to interpet them--or was it the items in conjunction with inspiration from the Holy Spirit? Actually, it becomes a rather important distinction. Why? My sense is that there is a similarity between the purpose in Joseph's translating what he found and the pentecostal experience of tongues and interpretation. To explain:

The gift of tongues allows the speaker to offer a message from God to a congregation. However, this message is delivered in a language not understood ("Reformed Egyptian").

The gift of interpretation allows the speaker to interpret the tongues in the venacular of the people, so all may be edified by it.

BUT...

The gift of prophecy allows the speaker to offer the message from God in the venacular WITHOUT a gift of tongues being expressed.

So, why bother with the tongues? Why doesn't God just always bestow the gift of prophecy? Why have Joseph translate rather than just receive?

Oh, I know there are differences, and it may well be that one is a true gift and another is a corruption or distortion, or, perhaps an imperfect expression. Nevertheless, the parallels are interesting.

BTW, by way of disclosure, Tom, I've started but not finished the BoM. Those who know me are tsk tsking, because I started some time ago.

Got to head off to work but to answer the first question in your post...

Yes, the Holy Spirit had to be present for the U&T to work. There are stories of times when Joseph and Emma would be in a dispute and he could not translate until he made amends with her and the spirit of contention left the environment. So one has to be called and worthy to use those sacred instruments.

[Hemidakota]

A quick question on the Urim and Thummim and Seer Stone--if I had them, and I came upon those plates, would I be able to interpet them--or was it the items in conjunction with inspiration from the Holy Spirit? Actually, it becomes a rather important distinction. Why? My sense is that there is a similarity between the purpose in Joseph's translating what he found and the pentecostal experience of tongues and interpretation. To explain:

The gift of tongues allows the speaker to offer a message from God to a congregation. However, this message is delivered in a language not understood ("Reformed Egyptian").

The gift of interpretation allows the speaker to interpret the tongues in the venacular of the people, so all may be edified by it.

BUT...

The gift of prophecy allows the speaker to offer the message from God in the venacular WITHOUT a gift of tongues being expressed.

So, why bother with the tongues? Why doesn't God just always bestow the gift of prophecy? Why have Joseph translate rather than just receive?

Oh, I know there are differences, and it may well be that one is a true gift and another is a corruption or distortion, or, perhaps an imperfect expression. Nevertheless, the parallels are interesting.

BTW, by way of disclosure, Tom, I've started but not finished the BoM. Those who know me are tsk tsking, because I started some time ago.

I read the Book of Mormon later after reading the D&C prior to joining the church.

[cjmaldrich]

A quick question on the Urim and Thummim and Seer Stone--if I had them, and I came upon those plates, would I be able to interpet them--or was it the items in conjunction with inspiration from the Holy Spirit? Actually, it becomes a rather important distinction. Why? My sense is that there is a similarity between the purpose in Joseph's translating what he found and the pentecostal experience of tongues and interpretation.

It's been said before that the Urim and Thummim rely on the spirit in order to work properly. This is evident because Joseph Smith did not use them in creating his translation of the Holy Bible or the Pearl of Great Price, as he returned them with the brass/gold/shiny plates. So clearly they're not absolutely required for translating... Maybe for the Book of Mormon they were, but obviously not for everything ancient... How exactly they were used is something that I don't know... I've heard conflicting stories ranging from putting them in a hat and then looking into the hat to wearing them like glasses... According to Joseph Smith, they were two stones fastened together by a silver bow (kind of like you would see with glasses - the lenses joined by a bow-shaped piece) and that was fastened to a breast plate.

I would assume that these are very important in early church, but probably not expressly necessary for translating... Early prophets in the Old Testament are mentioned using them, as are early prophets in the Book of Mormon. But later on, they aren't really mentioned a whole lot until Joseph Smith.

Then there are seer stones. According to Mormon Doctrine, there have probably only been two sets of Urim and Thummim. There are several seer stones, though. According to Revelations in the New Testament, those entering into the highest glory of Heaven will receive a white stone with their new name written on it. Modern revelation tells us that those are individual seer stones for us. I don't know how exactly they work, but some people believe that they are required in order to receive revelation as the prophet of a church. David Whitmer, for example, rejected the prophecies of Joseph Smith after he stopped using a seer stone to receive them. Joseph apparently had more than one (I don't remember the source for this, but since I haven't really been listing my sources, maybe you can let it slide) stone, as he kept one and another came into David Whitmer's possession (I think he bought it from a member of the Smith family, but don't quote me on that)... There are accounts of one of Whitmer's sons using that seer stone to receive revelation himself...

Of course simply having a seer stone and/or receiving a revelation doesn't make one a prophet... I receive revelation, but I'm hardly a prophet and I don't have a seer stone...

Edited February 18, 2009 by cjmaldrich

[Hemidakota]

Let you know that Joseph Smith did not use Brother of Jared's U&T glasses in completing the works of the book but found one in a well. This is the one he used to translate the Book of Mormon. Even President Young had two of them in his possession, which is now in the church archives. Perhaps, waiting for another seer to come forth to complete the sealed portions of the plates. :)

[Misshalfway]

Hi PC. Forgive me for not reading this whole thread. I don't have a lot of time so if I am redundant I apologize.

I had a few thoughts.

The Urim and Thummim is not just a BofM idea. It is Old Testament all the way. The purpose for such is not just for translations.....it is for receiving revelation. In my mind, it is one of the many ways God has in the tool belt of giving revelation.

I was also struck by your assessment that the translation of the record was somehow one of God's most unusual miracles. I was wondering if you felt the same way about angels appearing to man and giving very individual counsel or commandment. In my mind, translation of a record isn't that far from speaking in tongues....the translation and interpretation of languages. And if the bofm was indeed written in a long expired obscure language, how is that different from people who speak in tongues in all kinds of unknown communications?

I was reminded of one particular section of the Doctrine and Covenants when you asked about anyone being able to pick up a seer stone and translate. Oliver Cowdry wanted to try his hand at translating and figured he could just jump in and do it as easily as Jospeh. He was quickly humbled by the Lord as he learned what that process really entailed. That section(s) might be a good quick read for you. Sections 8 & 9 are the first that come to mind.

Edited February 18, 2009 by Misshalfway

[tubaloth]

Let you know that Joseph Smith did not use Brother of Jared's U&T glasses in completing the works of the book but found one in a well. This is the one he used to translate the Book of Mormon. Even President Young had two of them in his possession, which is now in the church archives. Perhaps, waiting for another seer to come forth to complete the sealed portions of the plates. :)

This could be debated. Yes there was a seer stone I'm not denying. But as the Book of Mormon teaches (and as Joseph Fielding Smith points out) why even bring forth the U & T if Joseph Smith can dig in his back yard and find a stone that does the same thing.

I don't doubt the seer stone had its place (easyer to cary) But I don't believe it was used ever for the translation of the Book of Mormon.

[tubaloth]

How exactly they were used is something that I don't know... I've heard conflicting stories ranging from putting them in a hat and then looking into the hat to wearing them like glasses... According to Joseph Smith, they were two stones fastened together by a silver bow (kind of like you would see with glasses - the lenses joined by a bow-shaped piece) and that was fastened to a breast plate.

Your confusion is normal here. There were actually two different items.

The seer stone is supposedly the one that was put into a hat and used to translate, even though this one account is second had. The U & T is the glasses and breastplate that had the glass sit on.

The confusion comes because Joseph Smith never even tried to distinguish if ever both were used. He would reefer to the U & T as stones as well. So for us some years later we get confused.

Joseph Smith always said he translated the Book of Mormon by the U & T.

Oliver Cowdery has always said the same thing.

[ruthiechan]

This could be debated. Yes there was a seer stone I'm not denying. But as the Book of Mormon teaches (and as Joseph Fielding Smith points out) why even bring forth the U & T if Joseph Smith can dig in his back yard and find a stone that does the same thing.

I don't doubt the seer stone had its place (easyer to cary) But I don't believe it was used ever for the translation of the Book of Mormon.

Uhm, no, it can not be debated that the Urim and Thummim was used to translate the Book of Mormon.

Straight from Joseph Smith himself in the Joseph Smith History in the Pearl of Great Price (which you can read the entirety of here: Joseph Smith—History 1)

"62 By this timely aid was I enabled to reach the place of my destination in Pennsylvania; and immediately after my arrival there I commenced copying the characters off the plates. I copied a considerable number of them, and by means of the Urim and Thummim I translated some of them, which I did between the time I arrived at the house of my wife’s father, in the month of December, and the February following."

Exodus 28:30, Leviticus 8:8, and Deuteronomy 33:8 are just a few biblical scriptures referring to the Urim and Thummim. More scriptural references, both biblical and in the Book of Mormon etc are in the Topical Guide: Urim and Thummim.

In the Bible Dictionary it says regarding the Urim and Thummim (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/u/4):

"Heb. term that means Lights and Perfections. An instrument prepared of God to assist man in obtaining revelation from the Lord and in translating languages. See Ex. 28: 30; Lev. 8: 8; Num. 27: 21; Deut. 33: 8; 1 Sam. 28: 6; Ezra 2: 63; Neh. 7: 65; JS-H 1: 35.

"Using a Urim and Thummim is the special prerogative of a seer, and it would seem reasonable that such instruments were used from the time of Adam. However, the earliest mention is in connection with the brother of Jared (Ether 3: 21-28). Abraham used a Urim and Thummim (Abr. 3: 1-4), as did Aaron and the priests of Israel, and also the prophets among the Nephites (Omni 1: 20-21; Mosiah 8: 13-19; Mosiah 21: 26-28; Mosiah 28: 11-20; Ether 4: 1-7). There is more than one Urim and Thummim, but we are informed that Joseph Smith had the one used by the brother of Jared (Ether 3: 22-28; D&C 10: 1; D&C 17: 1). (See Seer.) A partial description is given in JS-H 1: 35. Joseph Smith used it in translating the Book of Mormon and in obtaining other revelations.

"This earth in its celestial condition will be a Urim and Thummim, and many within that kingdom will have an additional Urim and Thummim (D&C 130: 6-11)."

I hope this helps clear some things up.

[hordak]

A related inquiry: The Bible is said to not contain certain lost and precious truths. Are those truths contained in the BoM? Do we have them all now, or is God revealing them gradually?

This is a good question. IMO (the gospel according to hordak) there isn't much different between the BoM and Bible.(I'm sure someone more well versed in the BoM Could point out some stuff) but I have never read anything drastically different. That being said most the doctrine that makes Mormons a "particular people" comes from other scriptures and prophecy. IMO if the church stopped with the BoM translation we would be another protestant sect with an extra book.

[Just_A_Guy]

Seer stones/U&T probably aren't necessary, once one learns to rely on the Spirit. But, as per Quinn's research (Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, which should be taken with a healthy dose of salt), Joseph Smith grew up in a culture where glass-looking was common even among observant Christians. I think Joseph's use of the U&T/seer stones was simply an allowance made by a God who teaches us according to our own capacity to learn. (Remember, per LDS doctrine the gifts of the Spirit mentioned by Paul are closely tied with the gift of the Holy Ghost, which can only be received by laying on of hands by one holding the Melchizedek Priesthood. And at this point in time, the Melchizedek Priesthood was not yet on the earth.)

Even President Young had two of them in his possession, which is now in the church archives. Perhaps, waiting for another seer to come forth to complete the sealed portions of the plates

Brigham Young wound up with Joseph Smith's--one of his brothers, as a missionary, got it from Oliver Cowdery's widow, who (IIRC) was a sister of David Whitmer. Whitmer had almost an obsession with the seer stone--one of the underlying reasons for his leaving the church was that Joseph became convinced he didn't need the stone anymore; whereas Whitmer considered any revelation Joseph received without the use of the stone to be immediately suspect.

For a time, I had a pet theory that the stone had been cut and set into a ring (the official portraits of Presidents Hinckley and Hunter show them wearing similar rings with a dark stone inlay and a diamond in the center); but as the ring is lacking in any photo I've seen of President Monson I suppose I'll have to chalk my theory up to too many viewings of Lord of the Rings.

I don't doubt the seer stone had its place (easyer to cary) But I don't believe it was used ever for the translation of the Book of Mormon.

Lucy Smith recorded that Joseph was highly impressed with the power of the U&T (versus his own seer stone) the first time he used it (see Bushman's Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism.) However, as I understand it, the U&T was not returned to Joseph Smith following the loss of the 116 pages. Accounts we have of the translation after that time from David Whitmer and Emma Smith always refer to the seer stone, never the U&T.

Edited February 18, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[HiJolly]

Here's a view at some seer stones seer stones - Google Image Search

HiJolly

[Madriglace]

It was pointed out that the Prophet had to be in tune with the spirit or he could not translate. We also need to remember that although he had the seer stone and the U&T the translation was not just handed to him either. He had to work it out and then present it to the Lord to make sure it was correct.

My personal opinion ... this was a learning tool to help Joseph. He was a young farm boy with limited education ... but if you look at his speaking and writing in later years it is amazing how learned he became. The Lord uses what is available to accomplish His work.

[ruthiechan]

Here's a view at some seer stones seer stones - Google Image Search

HiJolly

Those are very neat stones, but I am skeptical about them being the same sort that Prophets of God use. Or, maybe they could be, but need to be consecrated, akin to consecrated oil used for healing.

[Just_A_Guy]

Joseph's seer stone was consecrated, but (as far as I know) not until 1888 by Wilford Woodruff at the Manti Temple dedication.

Here's an article about Joseph's use of a seer stone and the translation process, from Dialogue. Evidently, he owned at least three throughout his lifetime.

Edited February 18, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[ruthiechan]

Joseph's seer stone was consecrated, but (as far as I know) not until 1888 by Wilford Woodruff at the Manti Temple dedication.

Here's an article about Joseph's use of a seer stone and the translation process, from Dialogue. Evidently, he owned at least three throughout his lifetime.

Maybe REconsecrated? If they're supposed to be consecrated before they can be used, such as healing oil is, then it stands to reason that it was consecrated before by those who have used it before Joseph.

For example, I have a bottle of consecrated oil. I've had it for eight and a half years. Theoritically that bottle of consecrated oil could be handed down from generation to generation, and the original consecration would still be good, but it could be that somewhere down the line someone would feel the need to reconsecrate it. It doesn't mean it was never consecrated before, just that it was consecrated again.

Edited February 18, 2009 by ruthiechan
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