So what is wrong with the Nicene Creed?

[LittleNipper]

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I don't hold it to be "scripture," but as a Christian I do hold it to be a reasonable guide to what the Bible says...

[Guest ceeboo]

Nothing wrong with it at all :):)

As a matter of fact, it has stood for 1500 years. ( SAYS ALOT IMHO :))

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Hemidakota]

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I don't hold it to be "scripture," but as a Christian I do hold it to be a reasonable guide to what the Bible says...

Have you ever consider asking GOD whether or not this is correct?

[Guest tomk]

If you are looking for an LDS response, this is why we do not believe in the Nicene Creed:

The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent

[Hemidakota]

Something I always find disturbing by those who claimed to be Christians is always denouncing the church as not Christian, when in fact; we name our church after Him. We bear witness of Him. We speak and preach about Him to the world. At times, we have to keep reinstating the same voice to the world as Elder Jeffrey R. Holland mentioned in his talk:

"Now, to anyone within the sound of my voice who has wondered regarding our Christianity, I bear this witness. I testify that Jesus Christ is the literal, living Son of our literal, living God. This Jesus is our Savior and Redeemer who, under the guidance of the Father..."

[LittleNipper]

If you are looking for an LDS response, this is why we do not believe in the Nicene Creed:

The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent

But is that not the reality? That GOD the FATHER, GOD the SON, and GOD the HOLY SPIRIT are three DIVINE individuals/beings that together have throughout all eternity past, present & future existed as one essence --- ALMIGHTY GOD? I do not believe them to be one individual being but one essence LORD GOD ALMIGHTY.

Edited February 19, 2009 by LittleNipper

[Hemidakota]

ONE IN PURPOSE...if one had the veil dropped before there eyes, you will find THREE distinct individuals; tangible as you and me.

What is the purpose of the Godhead for us?

[tubaloth]

I do hold it to be a reasonable guide to what the Bible says

I can see that. When all your eggs are one basket this is the only conclusion that can come from it. But once more light and truth is brought forth (mostly Joseph Smith actually seeing God and Jesus Christ, must like Stephen did) then only confusion of who God is comes. Once confusion, even to the smallest degree comes in, real faith can't exist. If we don't REALLY know who God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are. How can we have faith in them?

The point being is, the way to know God is through his prophets. Last time I checked there wasn't a prophet invited to the Nicene Creed. How could they know who God was, with out a prophet?

Amos 3:7

[Dr T]

I'd also say there is nothing wrong with it

[LittleNipper]

I can see that. When all your eggs are one basket this is the only conclusion that can come from it. But once more light and truth is brought forth (mostly Joseph Smith actually seeing God and Jesus Christ, must like Stephen did) then only confusion of who God is comes. Once confusion, even to the smallest degree comes in, real faith can't exist. If we don't REALLY know who God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are. How can we have faith in them?

The point being is, the way to know God is through his prophets. Last time I checked there wasn't a prophet invited to the Nicene Creed. How could they know who God was, with out a prophet?

Amos 3:7

But see I do believe the HOLY SPIRIT was there: You may wish to consider the following:

Christ as PROPHET, PRIEST & KING. Christians now have CHRIST. HE is their prophet --- unlike in Old Testament times...

Christ Our Prophet

Christ's prophetic office means, in effect, that Christ represents God to man. Jesus is the light of the world (Jn 1:4-5), who comes to show us God the Father (Jn 14:9). Under the Old Covenant Christ taught us by means of types and shadows, the history of redemption, and by his providential care over the people of Israel. Since the Old Testament prophet is'one who sees things...who receives revelations, who is in the service of God, particularly as a messenger who speaks in His name,'6 our Lord Jesus exercised these functions both before and after his incarnation (1 Pt 1:11). It was Moses who foretold of a great prophet that'the Lord your God will raise up for you among your brothers. You must listen to him' (Dt 18:15). And it is Peter, who immediately after the birth of the Church, applies this passage to our Lord (Acts 3:22-23). Jesus speaks of himself as such a prophet (Lk 13:33), and our Lord expressly claims to speak only what his father has told him to say (Jn 12:49-50; 14:10, 24; 15:15; 17:8, 20). Jesus speaks of the future (Mt 24:3-35), and speaks with an amazing authority unlike all others (Mt 7:29). Indeed, our Lord's words are backed by the power of God, for his mighty works serve to confirm the truth of his message (Mt 21:11, 46; Lk 7:16, 24:19; Jn 3:2, 4:19, 7:40, 9:17). In John 6:14 we are told that 'after the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus did, they began to say, 'Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.''

Christ's prophetic work does not cease, however, with the end of his earthly ministry at his Ascension. As Louis Berkhof notes, Christ'continues His prophetical activity through the operation of the Holy Spirit. His teachings are both verbal and factual, that is, He teaches not only by verbal communications, but also by the facts of revelation, such as the incarnation, His atoning death, the resurrection and ascension.'7 Christ is the one who sends the Holy Spirit, and as the Spirit of Christ, he is the one who'will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment' (Jn 16:8). As Christ is the Word incarnate, and the central figure in biblical revelation, so too we cannot divorce the work of his Spirit from the written word. Since Christ fulfills the office of prophet, and since he continues to speak to us through his word-and only through his word-the Reformed are very reticent to give any credence to supposed'words from God,' or'words of knowledge' from modern day schwärmer such as Pat Robertson or Benny Hinn who repeatedly make such claims to speak forth Spirit-led utterances.

Christ Our Priest

The priestly office of Christ occupies a major place in the New Testament and includes not only a discussion of the office itself, but also of Christ's sacrificial death to redeem sinners from their sin. The key passage in the New Testament, Hebrews 5:1 and following, lays out the characteristics of a true priest. First,'every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God' (v. 1). Second, such a priest is appointed by God (v. 4). Third, the high priest'offers gifts and sacrifices for sins' (v. 1). In addition, the priest makes intercession for the people (7:25), blessing them in the name of God (Lv 9:22). Clearly, Jesus Christ is the high priest par excellence.

The Old Testament predicted a coming Redeemer. The Psalmist records God saying about his chosen one:'The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: 'you are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek'' (Ps 110:4). Zechariah tells us that the coming Redeemer'will build the temple of the Lord, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne. And he will be a priest on his throne' (Ps 6:13). There is no doubt, as Berkhof notes, that 'the Old Testament priesthood, and particularly the high priest, clearly prefigured a priestly Messiah.'8

The author of the book of Hebrews is clearly cognizant of this. Though he is the only New Testament writer who applies the term to our Lord, he repeatedly speaks of Jesus as a priest. We are told 'to fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess' (Heb 3:1). We are informed that we'have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God' (Heb 4:14). Christ has not taken upon himself'the glory of becoming a high priest' (Heb 5:5), for the author applies the words of Psalm 110:4 to him:'he has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek' (Heb 6:20). Jesus is the kind of high priest 'who meets our needs-one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people,' for this high priest'sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself' (Heb 7:27). Thus Christians are able to take heart, for our high priest, when he had completed his work, 'sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven' (Heb 8:1).

A great deal of biblical data is devoted to Christ's work as high priest, but we can only briefly survey it here.9 The Scriptures point us in several directions. One aspect of this, which we may easily overlook but which is extremely important to notice, is that not only does Christ the high priest offer an all-sufficient sacrifice for sin, but he also is himself the all-sufficient sacrifice for sin! We get a strong hint of this in the Mosaic epoch of biblical revelation, through the nature of the sacrifices that were instituted, and which themselves were mere types and shadows, pointing us to the Messiah yet to come. The sacrifices offered during this time temporarily expiated the guilt of the sins of the people through the sacrifice of the substitute-in this case, an animal who was offered up to God. But the Psalmist, who records for us the prophetic words of the Messiah himself, takes this further.'Sacrifice and offering you did not desire...burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require. Then I said, 'Here I am, I have come-it is written about me in the scroll. I desire to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart'' (Ps 40:6-8). The Messiah indicates that his own coming sacrificial death will supersede the Old Testament sacrificial system.10

The New Testament quite frequently and powerfully makes this very point-Jesus Christ's sacrificial death is the fulfillment of the types and shadows of the Mosaic system. The author of Hebrews, as but one example, makes it very clear that Jesus Christ, through his one sacrifice, has done something that the blood of bulls and goats could never accomplish. While the blood of animals could not take away sin, the blood of the Messiah, on the other hand, is that through which'we have been made holy' (Heb 11:10). This is a major theme throughout the New Testament.

Just as Christ's prophetic work did not cease when he completed his earthly ministry, so neither has his priestly work. Though Christ took his place at the right hand of his Father, because his redemptive work was finished (Heb 11:12), Jesus Christ presently intercedes for us when we sin (1 Jn 2:1-2). While we are correct to focus on what Christ has done for us as our high priest, we must not forget those things he is doing for us even now. He prays for our sanctification (Jn 17:17). He is now our'great high priest who has gone through the heavens,' so too we can now'approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need' (Heb 4:14-16). Even now, our great high priest is building us'into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ' (1 Pt 2:5). What comfort we can take, knowing that our Lord is in heaven, preparing for us to see his glory (Jn 17:24). For the great high priest who intercedes for us never sleeps nor wearies, he never prays without full effect, and he is ever mindful of our continuing struggles with the world, the flesh, and the devil (Heb 2:18). Jesus Christ is both the author and the finisher of our faith (Heb 12:2). He is our great high priest and the good shepherd, who even now guards his flock. No one shall ever snatch us from his hand (Jn 10:28-29), and nothing will ever separate us from his love (Rom 8:37-39).

Christ Our King

The biblical writers would have been quite mystified, I think, at much of the evangelical discussion about'making Christ Lord'-as though it was through a decision on our part that Christ becomes'the Lord over our lives.' And they certainly would have been perplexed by those who insist on reading the kingdom language of the New Testament through the grid of the American nationalism of the Christian right, or the moralistic social gospel of the Christian left. They would, I think, be equally confused by our dispensational brethren, who insist on undercutting the present reign of Christ by arguing that Christ's kingly office (especially the regnum gratiae-the 'kingdom of grace') does not come fully into view until a future millennial age commences and at long last Christ supposedly begins to exercise his full authority from the earthly city of Jerusalem. Most of this confusion comes from a failure to understand this third office of Christ, his kingly rule.

The Scriptures plainly declare that'the Lord has established his throne in heaven and his kingdom rules over it' (Ps 103:19). We don't make Christ anything-He is the Lord over his creation. His throne is in heaven, and he is king over creation. This kingship is therefore to be seen as'his official power to rule all things in heaven and on earth, for the glory of God, and for the execution of God's purpose of salvation.'11 If Christ is not presently ruling in this capacity, we must ask ourselves, just who exactly is minding the store? Reformed theologians usually argue that there are two aspects to this kingly rule. The first is Christ's regnum potentiae (kingdom of power) and the second is the regnum gratiae. Unlike the dispensationalists, who argue that Christ delays the full manifestation of his rule in this present dispensation, the Reformed argue that Christ presently exercises full dominion over all, even now. He is king and his kingdom is presently a kingdom both of grace and of power. He is in full control and he is ordering all of human history as he sees fit. This means that at his Ascension, Jesus Christ ascended to the right hand of his father and even now rules over all of creation (regnum potentiae) and over his church (regnum gratiae).

In the kingdom of grace, Christ is seen to rule the church of which he himself is head. As such, this rule is a spiritual rule, since it is exercised in a spiritual realm. As Berkhof puts it,'it is established in the hearts and lives of believers.'12 The New Testament repeatedly speaks of Christ has'head of the church' (Eph 1:22, 4:15; 5:23; Col 1:18; 2:19). Christ's rule over his church is closely related to the mystical union formed between Christ and the church, which the Scriptures describe as his'body' (1 Cor 12:27). Christ's rule over this kingdom is based on his redemptive work.'No one is a citizen of this kingdom by virtue of his humanity. Only the redeemed have that honor and privilege.'13 It is a spiritual kingdom, so it has no flag, no world headquarters, and no post office box. But it is certainly and powerfully present wherever Christ's people gather to hear God's word proclaimed and to receive the sacraments (Rom 14:17). This kingdom is identical to that which the New Testament repeatedly calls the'Kingdom of God.' Lest we forget, this kingdom is a conquering kingdom (Mt 12:28), though we err greatly if we connect the advance of this kingdom to cultural, economic, or political institutions (Jn 18:36). The wicked will not inherit this kingdom (Gal 5:21), though our own children, seen by the world as'the least of these,' are already members through baptism (Lk 18:16). It is a glorious kingdom (1 Thes 2:12), and despite what some may say, it is a present reality (Mt 3:2). It is a kingdom, which as the Creed declares,'has no end' (2 Pt 1:11).

The kingdom of power, on the other hand, refers to Christ's rule or dominion over all of creation. In this case, as creator of all, he is also Lord (Col 1:16-17). He orders the affairs of nations (Is 40:17), and controls the lives and destinies of individuals (Acts 14:15-17, 17:24-27). Quite simply, the Scripture puts it this way:'Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him' (Ps 115:3). This serves as the basis for understanding all of history as ultimately serving the purpose of the redemption of God's people, since we know that God is working together everything after the purpose of his will (Eph 1:11) and that he is ordering all things, so that human history is racing to a great and final climax, the return of our Lord to Earth for the resurrection and the final judgment. It is this kingly rule of Christ that gives us comfort in the midst of the tumult of the signs of the end of the age: earthquakes, disease, wars and rumors of wars.

Edited February 19, 2009 by LittleNipper

[LittleWyvern]

You're (meaning not only you but most everybody else in this thread) making this too complicated. When you ask Mormons why they don't believe in the Nicene Creed, they really want to say "The First Vision." Our faith and religion hinges on that one event.

Edited February 19, 2009 by LittleWyvern

[gabelpa]

I'm still looking for something to actually comment on. The Unitarians believe as we LDS do, and do not follow the Nicene Creed. We just don't believe in the personage of God that is laid out in that Creed. Why is that so difficult to accept?

[Maureen]

I agree with the Nicene Creed, but my favorite is the Athanasian Creed.

[LittleNipper]

You're (meaning not only you but most everybody else in this thread) making this too complicated. When you ask Mormons why they don't believe in the Nicene Creed, they really want to say "The First Vision." Our faith and religion hinges on that one event.

Interestingly, Stephen seems to see GOD's glory and JESUS CHRIST standing to the right of this glory...

International Standard Version (©2008)

But Stephen, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)

But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)

But Stephen was full of the Holy Spirit. He looked into heaven, saw God's glory, and Jesus in the position of authority that God gives.

King James Bible

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

American King James Version

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

American Standard Version

But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Bible in Basic English

But he was full of the Holy Spirit, and looking up to heaven, he saw the glory of God and Jesus at the right hand of God.

Douay-Rheims Bible

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looking up steadfastly to heaven, saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. And he said: Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Darby Bible Translation

But being full of the Holy Spirit, having fixed his eyes on heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,

English Revised Version

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Webster's Bible Translation

But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Weymouth New Testament

But, full of the Holy Spirit and looking up to Heaven, Stephen saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at God's right hand.

World English Bible

But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Young's Literal Translation

and being full of the Holy Spirit, having looked stedfastly to the heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

[bytor2112]

"When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!" - Joseph Smith

[LittleNipper]

"When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!" - Joseph Smith

How might this conflict with the following?

Hebrews 1:3

International Standard Version (©2008)

He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty

New American Standard Bible (©1995)

And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)

His Son is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of God's being. He holds everything together through his powerful words. After he had cleansed people from their sins, he received the highest position, the one next to the Father in heaven.

King James Bible

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

American King James Version

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

American Standard Version

who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Bible in Basic English

Who, being the outshining of his glory, the true image of his substance, supporting all things by the word of his power, having given himself as an offering making clean from sins, took his seat at the right hand of God in heaven;

Douay-Rheims Bible

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high.

Darby Bible Translation

who being the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, having made by himself the purification of sins, set himself down on the right hand of the greatness on high,

English Revised Version

who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Webster's Bible Translation

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself made purification of our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Weymouth New Testament

He brightly reflects God's glory and is the exact representation of His being, and upholds the universe by His all-powerful word. After securing man's purification from sin He took His seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

World English Bible

His Son is the radiance of his glory, the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself made purification for our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Young's Literal Translation

who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might -- through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest,

And also this?

International Standard Version (©2008)

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

King James Bible

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

American King James Version

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

American Standard Version

who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

Bible in Basic English

Who is the image of the unseen God coming into existence before all living things;

Douay-Rheims Bible

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Darby Bible Translation

who is image of the invisible God, firstborn of all creation;

English Revised Version

who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

Webster's Bible Translation

Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature:

Weymouth New Testament

Christ is the visible representation of the invisible God, the Firstborn and Lord of all creation.

World English Bible

who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Young's Literal Translation

who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,

[beefche]

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I don't hold it to be "scripture," but as a Christian I do hold it to be a reasonable guide to what the Bible says...

I'm not sure what the point of this thread. Without searching, I'm sure there have been endless discussions on the nature of God.

However, to answer the question from my point of view:

A lot of this quote is what I believe. However, there are a few major things that I don't believe. For example, "...being of one substance of the Father..." I believe that God the Father, God Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit are 3 distinct individuals. They are all One God and I worship them. However, I believe that they are not one substance. I don't understand that concept. I'm sure this has been brought up countless times, but how can God the Father proclaim His Son, while Jesus is being baptized, and while the Holy Spirit is being manifested by a dove at the same time? Furthermore, after learning of the First Vision of Joseph Smith in which he clearly describes 2 individuals--God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ--appearing before him, I prayed about it. The answer I received was that this is correct doctrine--they are 3 persons.

I don't believe in the one holy catholic and apostalic Church. I DO believe however, that God has established His kingdom and Church on earth.

[bytor2112]

Not at all, how do you see it conflicting?

[LittleNipper]

I'm not sure what the point of this thread. Without searching, I'm sure there have been endless discussions on the nature of God.

However, to answer the question from my point of view:

A lot of this quote is what I believe. However, there are a few major things that I don't believe. For example, "...being of one substance of the Father..." I believe that God the Father, God Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit are 3 distinct individuals. They are all One God and I worship them. However, I believe that they are not one substance. I don't understand that concept. I'm sure this has been brought up countless times, but how can God the Father proclaim His Son, while Jesus is being baptized, and while the Holy Spirit is being manifested by a dove at the same time? Furthermore, after learning of the First Vision of Joseph Smith in which he clearly describes 2 individuals--God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ--appearing before him, I prayed about it. The answer I received was that this is correct doctrine--they are 3 persons.

I don't believe in the one holy catholic and apostalic Church. I DO believe however, that God has established His kingdom and Church on earth.

Well, look at it this way. My dad is made of flesh, blood and bone. "I", my dad's son, am also made of flesh, blood and bone. We are both made of the same substance, but we are two individuals. The FATHER, the SON, and the HOLY SPIRIT are all GOD stuff. They are three beings but are all GOD stuff.

As for the Catholic Church, I see that as being the Universal CHURCH --- the body of ALL SAVED INDIVIDUALS that ever lived. No matter where that individual maybe found, as a saved individual, he/she is part of the Universal CHURCH.

Edited February 20, 2009 by LittleNipper

[Misshalfway]

I think the more powerful question is "What is RIGHT with the Nicean Creed?"

1500 years is impressive, I will agree. But truth is eternal It was in the beginning and is the same now. I want truth from the beginning of time and the consistency of that truth over the expanse of peoples and cultures and counsels of learned men doing the best they can.

[LittleNipper]

I think the more powerful question is "What is RIGHT with the Nicean Creed?"

1500 years is impressive, I will agree. But truth is eternal It was in the beginning and is the same now. I want truth from the beginning of time and the consistency of that truth over the expanse of peoples and cultures and counsels of learned men doing the best they can.

My intent was for a LDS to tell me exactly what he disagrees with. It would seem that they do agree with some of it.

Edited February 20, 2009 by john doe
corrected spelling of 'LDS'

[Guest tomk]

Well, look at it this way. My dad is made of flesh, blood and bone. "I", my dad's son, am also made of flesh, blood and bone. We are both made of the same substance, but we are two individuals. The FATHER, the SON, and the HOLY SPIRIT are all GOD stuff. They are three beings but are all GOD stuff.

As for the Catholic Church, I see that as being the Universal CHURCH --- the body of ALL SAVED INDIVIDUALS that ever lived. No matter where that individual maybe found, as a saved individual, he/she is part of the Universal CHURCH.

What is the POINT of your post?

It seems apparent to me that you understand we do not have a Trinitarian view of the Godhead.

You understand our point of view but you reject it. You believe the Godhead is ONE SUBSTANCE. Three beings but ONE God, literally.

We do not believe that. We believe they are and always have been three seperate, distinct beings, not ONE substance, but ONE in purpose.

Can you be a little more specific in what you are trying to accomplish here? Let's not keep going in circles, please.

Tom

[Misshalfway]

My intent was for a LSD to tell me exactly what he disagrees with. It would seem that they do agree with some of it.

I think you are missing my point. I am telling you why I disagree with it. I disagree with it because 1500 years of belief doesn't make something true. Tradition isn't enough to convince me.

And I never said I didn't agree with parts of it. It is mans attempt to explain God. Not God's explanation to man of who and what He is.

[Guest ceeboo]

Ceeboo's 2 cents :)

Asking LDS folk " what is wrong with the Nicene Creed " is, IMHO, a starting point that will get stopped before it even gets started. ( It also has no mutual benefit to any )

With the understanding of the " first vision " and respecting what that represents to my LDS friends, this thread has NO CHANCE of going anywhere.

Just my thoughts :)

Ceeboo

[Misshalfway]

You know.....I don't think I answered completely accurately. I answered from my head, and not from my heart. I do have my intellectual objections to the creed but really it comes down to answers I have received from my personal one on one communications with Father in Heaven.

I think man in all cultures has tried to explain and understand God. The Nicean Creed and the Godhead are both part of the effort and for all I know.....(without the Spirit of God to confirm)....either one could be true or both completely false.

The only way to really settle the question once and for all is to go to God himself. If any of us lack wisdom, HE will give us light to understand and know. And I know that the Godhead is the truth. I know it because in the quietness of my bedroom and in the personal-ness of my scripture study and pondering, God has taught me through the holy Spirit the truth on this question -- even when I have argued with Him. In the end, this is why I can't believe in the Trinity.....even though so many others do and prize it as the foundation of their faith.