What do LDS think they are saved from?

[LittleNipper]

There's the crux of our disagreement. You seem to believe that people who die in their sins have lost all chance for salvation. I wonder why, if that is so, Jesus bothered after His death to preach to the onetime-disobedient spirits who had lived in the days of Noah and were then in "prison". (1 Peter 3:18-20). But I suppose this discussion has been had repeatedly, elsewhere on this board. :)

Well we have perhaps some confusion in the understanding. You might remember that in Luke 16:19-31 JESUS spoke of the rich man with 5 brothers and poor Lazarus. If you remember Lazarus died and went to Abraham's bosom and the rich man died and wanted Lazarus to give him some water. Abraham told the once rich man that there was a fixed chasm or great gulf between them.

Now also remember that JESUS told one of the men hanging on a cross with HIM that "Today you will be with ME in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). As a believer I believe these are both one and the same place. CHRIST want down to hell (Abraham's bosom side) to release all those waiting who had died prior to HIS being raised, to speak to them and to release them to heaven. This would have included ALL Old Testament saints like Moses, Abraham, Ruth, Esther, etc., etc., etc., (and Lazarus too).

Those like the once rich man would have witnessed CHRIST's coming into release those out of Abraham's bosom/paradise... BUT would have been left behind because of their separation in hell. Hell then increased as paradise was emptied.

There is always a witness, but for some it is too late...

Edited February 25, 2009 by LittleNipper

[applepansy]

My belief is that the concept of heaven and hell are simple. Where the LDS differ from other Christian faiths is that we understand that there is a lot that happens between death and Judgement. The LDS believe is that Judgement doesn't happen immediately after death.

The Plan of Salvation: (I'm sorry I don't have a scanner so I'll diagram as best I can)

Pre Earth Life ----> Birth ----> Earth Life ----> Death ----> Paradise/Spirit Prison ----> Resurrection ----> (somewhere in here is the Millenium, the 1,000 years that Christ will reign on this earth unopposed by Satan) ----> Judgement (Mercy Seat) ---> Afterwhich it will be decided if we go to one of three Kingdoms of Glory or to Outer Darkness.

Italics = Spirit state / Underlined = Spirit and body together

The answer to your wife's question "What do LDS people think they will be saved from?" The answer is Spiritual death (or Hell, in my opinion) which is Outer Darkness. The people who deny Christ AFTER having a perfect knowledge of Him will go to Hell/Outer Darkness.

I also believe there might be a personal "hell" in that we will know what we could have done better but didn't. . . a regret. Even regrets here in this life can be "hell."

Another place that gets confusing for non-LDS Christians is that our concept of Heaven is more complex. But that's another thread.

If you want to understand the LDS perspective better I suggest reading Alma 12 in the Book of Mormon.

applepansy

[Just_A_Guy]

CHRIST want down to hell (Abraham's bosom side) to release all those waiting who had died prior to HIS being raised, to speak to them and to release them to heaven. This would have included ALL Old Testament saints like Moses, Abraham, Ruth, Esther, etc., etc., etc., (and Lazarus too).

But Peter is very clear that Christ preached to the "disobedient". Why?

[Elgama]

am I alone in preferring to consider more where I am going than what I am saved from, whilst the atonement is important, my goal is to follow Christ and leave the rest upto Him

-Charley

[applepansy]

am I alone in preferring to consider more where I am going than what I am saved from, whilst the atonement is important, my goal is to follow Christ and leave the rest upto Him

-Charley

No you're not alone. We find hope in knowing about the atonement. But when it comes right down to it, what we do with that knowledge, right now, today, is what is important.

applepansy

[LittleNipper]

But Peter is very clear that Christ preached to the "disobedient". Why?

Noah also preached to those who eventually drowned, why? Someday I may ask, but I will not presume. I do know that GOD always provides a witness, no matter if people listen or not. They are without excuse or they are reminded of their own past excuses. Devils believe in GOD and yet they fell from the glory of GOD.

[Hemidakota]

Let you know that Noah was not alone in preaching repentance to those who were Cananites, either by birth or by decision of choice.

[prisonchaplain]

am I alone in preferring to consider more where I am going than what I am saved from, whilst the atonement is important, my goal is to follow Christ and leave the rest upto Him

-Charley

I know you do not mean to bypass or diminish the importance of repentence, but perhaps such is the result of this approach...at least taken to an extreme. Pollsters repeatedly tell us that people by about a 30% margin believe more in heaven than hell. Well, if there is no hell, or if it's really small, or only temporary, then perhaps my sin isn't so bad after all. Why focus on the negative? Well, it helps us value more what Heavenly Father gives us, through his son. If we know we are forgiven much, we tend to love that much more.

In order to glory in the walk of faith, holiness and communion with Heavenly Father, imho, it is essential to tarry through the times of repentence, and to remain mindful of how great our salvation is--and, yes, just what it is we are saved from.

[Elgama]

I know you do not mean to bypass or diminish the importance of repentence, but perhaps such is the result of this approach...at least taken to an extreme. Pollsters repeatedly tell us that people by about a 30% margin believe more in heaven than hell. Well, if there is no hell, or if it's really small, or only temporary, then perhaps my sin isn't so bad after all. Why focus on the negative? Well, it helps us value more what Heavenly Father gives us, through his son. If we know we are forgiven much, we tend to love that much more.

In order to glory in the walk of faith, holiness and communion with Heavenly Father, imho, it is essential to tarry through the times of repentence, and to remain mindful of how great our salvation is--and, yes, just what it is we are saved from.

in order to turn your heart to Christ and grow and progress with Him by your side is that not repentance?

I personally do not consider heaven or hell for me its doing as I am commanded, because I have Faith my Heavenly Father will not lead me wrong, I live my life in the current moment doing the best I can in the present, the rest is upto the Saviour for me that is what the atonement is.

-Charley

[Elgama]

I think what I am trying to say is I am running towards God not away from Satan

-Charley

[LittleNipper]

I think what I am trying to say is I am running towards God not away from Satan

-Charley

1. O soul, are you weary and troubled?

No light in the darkness you see?

There’s light for a look at the Savior,

And life more abundant and free!

* Refrain:

Turn your eyes upon Jesus,

Look full in His wonderful face,

And the things of earth will grow strangely dim,

In the light of His glory and grace.

2. Through death into life everlasting

He passed, and we follow Him there;

O’er us sin no more hath dominion—

For more than conquerors we are!

3. His Word shall not fail you—He promised;

Believe Him, and all will be well:

Then go to a world that is dying,

His perfect salvation to tell!

Helen H. Lemmel 1922

[LittleNipper]

I think what I am trying to say is I am running towards God not away from Satan

-Charley

1. O soul, are you weary and troubled?

No light in the darkness you see?

There’s light for a look at the Savior,

And life more abundant and free!

* Refrain:

Turn your eyes upon Jesus,

Look full in His wonderful face,

And the things of earth will grow strangely dim,

In the light of His glory and grace.

2. Through death into life everlasting

He passed, and we follow Him there;

O’er us sin no more hath dominion—

For more than conquerors we are!

3. His Word shall not fail you—He promised;

Believe Him, and all will be well:

Then go to a world that is dying,

His perfect salvation to tell!

Helen H. Lemmel 1922

[Elgama]

thanks I love hymns these are my 3 favourite

Be Thou My Vision

1. Be Thou my vision,

O Lord of my heart;

Naught be all else to me,

save that Thou art

Thou my best thought,

by day or by night,

Waking or sleeping,

Thy presence my light.

2. Be Thou my wisdom,

and Thou my true Word;

I ever with Thee and

Thou with me, Lord;

Thou my great Father,

and I Thy true son;

Thou in me dwelling,

and I with Thee one.

3. Riches I heed not,

nor man's empty praise,

Thou mine inheritance,

now and always:

Thou and Thou only,

first in my heart,

High king of heaven,

my treasure Thou art.

4. High king of heaven,

my victory won,

May I reach heaven's joys,

O bright heaven's sun!

Heart of my own heart,

whatever befall,

Still be my vision,

O ruler of all.

and

[B]Lead Kindly Light Hymn

Lead, kindly Light, amid th’encircling gloom, lead Thou me on!

The night is dark, and I am far from home; lead Thou me on!

Keep Thou my feet; I do not ask to see

The distant scene; one step enough for me.

I was not ever thus, nor prayed that Thou shouldst lead me on;

I loved to choose and see my path; but now lead Thou me on!

I loved the garish day, and, spite of fears,

Pride ruled my will. Remember not past years!

So long Thy power hath blest me, sure it still will lead me on.

O’er moor and fen, o’er crag and torrent, till the night is gone,

And with the morn those angel faces smile, which I

Have loved long since, and lost awhile!

Meantime, along the narrow rugged path, Thyself hast trod,

Lead, Savior, lead me home in childlike faith, home to my God.

To rest forever after earthly strife

In the calm light of everlasting life.

[B]Make me a Channel of Your Peace

Make me a channel of your peace.

Where there is hatred let me bring your love;

Where there is injury your pardon, Lord;

And where there's doubt true faith in you.

Refrain:

Oh, Master grant that I may never seek

So much to be consoled as to console;

To be understood as to understand;

To be loved as to love with all my soul.

Make me a channel of your peace.

Where there's despair in life let me bring hope;

Where there is darkness, only light;

And where there's sadness, ever joy.

Refrain

Make me a channel of your peace.

It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;

In giving to all men that we receive;

And in dying that we're born to eternal life.

Refrain

-Charley

[Elgama]

I just personally think people give Satan too much credit and too much thought always loved the scene in the Bible where Moses more or less says to him and who do you think you are I giggle everytime I read it, its like way to go

-Charley

[Connie]

I love that too, Elgama. I'll post it here just for fun and for any non-LDS who might not be familiar with it. It is from Moses 1 in the Pearl of Great Price.

And, by the way, i think you make a great point. :)

12 And it came to pass that when Moses had said these words, behold, Satan came tempting him, saying: Moses, son of man, worship me.

13 And it came to pass that Moses looked upon Satan and said: Who art thou? For behold, I am a son of God, in the similitude of his Only Begotten; and where is thy glory, that I should worship thee?

14 For behold, I could not look upon God, except his glory should come upon me, and I were transfigured before him. But I can look upon thee in the natural man. Is it not so, surely?

15 Blessed be the name of my God, for his Spirit hath not altogether withdrawn from me, or else where is thy glory, for it is darkness unto me? And I can judge between thee and God; for God said unto me: Worship God, for him only shalt thou serve.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Connie

[Elgama]

wondering if better question might be what are we saved for?

-Charley

[Just_A_Guy]

Noah also preached to those who eventually drowned, why? Someday I may ask, but I will not presume. I do know that GOD always provides a witness, no matter if people listen or not. They are without excuse or they are reminded of their own past excuses. Devils believe in GOD and yet they fell from the glory of GOD.

Noah was preaching to people who were alive and could still be saved. Not so, when Jesus preached to dead people whose damnation (per your comments as I understand them) was already sealed.

[LittleNipper]

Noah was preaching to people who were alive and could still be saved. Not so, when Jesus preached to dead people whose damnation (per your comments as I understand them) was already sealed.

Well, this is true; however, Moses also preached to Pharaoh, but for whose benefit? Pharoah didn't listen, but GOD was presenting the Hebrews with an object lesson...

Jesus went to Abraham's Bosm to release the Old Testament saints awaiting GOD's expected salvation ---- the spirits of which walked about Jerusalem after JESUS died on the cross.

Those who died without the hope of salvation were exposed to this event on the other side of that great chasm. But just like no one was sent to warn the once rich man's five brothers they (those dead in sin) received no comfort only righteous justice.

[Just_A_Guy]

Well, this is true; however, Moses also preached to Pharaoh, but for whose benefit?

Pharoah wasn't dead yet.

Those who died without the hope of salvation were exposed to this event on the other side of that great chasm.

As an exercise in gloating?

But just like no one was sent to warn the once rich man's five brothers they (those dead in sin) received no comfort only righteous justice.

Au contraire. They had "Moses and the prophets".

[LittleNipper]

Pharoah wasn't dead yet.

As an exercise in gloating?

Au contraire. They had "Moses and the prophets".

And it is rather obvious from the implications that the brothers, as with the once rich man, never profited from either...

Is justice a form of gloating? I don't believe it to be. It exhonerates the righteous in CHRIST.

[Just_A_Guy]

And it is rather obvious from the implications that the brothers, as with the once rich man, never profited from either...

Which is beside the point. The point is, they had a meaningful opportunity to change their ways. The people Peter tells us Jesus preached to; if I am to believe your theology; didn't. So why did Jesus preach to them personally? Your answer to this question seems to be that the glory of God and the ability to dwell in His presence just isn't salvation enough--to be truly "saved", the righteous must have an opportunity to settle old scores.

People who gloat always feel justified in their actions. But it's still boorish behavior.

[LittleNipper]

Which is beside the point. The point is, they had a meaningful opportunity to change their ways. The people Peter tells us Jesus preached to; if I am to believe your theology; didn't. So why did Jesus preach to them personally? Your answer to this question seems to be that the glory of God and the ability to dwell in His presence just isn't salvation enough--to be truly "saved", the righteous must have an opportunity to settle old scores.

People who gloat always feel justified in their actions. But it's still boorish behavior.

It is ALL a part of the point. JESUS died and went to hell for the sins of the world. Part of that involved releasing the departed saints and being seen of those destined to remain in hell.

Edited February 27, 2009 by LittleNipper

[Just_A_Guy]

It is ALL a part of the point. JESUS died and want to hell for the sins of the world. Part of that involved releasing the departed saints and being seen of those destined to remain in hell.

You have not supported that with a contextually- and textually-unambiguous scriptural statement. Your repeating a statement does not make it so.

[LittleNipper]

You have not supported that with a contextually- and textually-unambiguous scriptural statement. Your repeating a statement does not make it so.

The word “preached” in 1 Peter 3 is the Greek word kerusso which means to proclaim or herald. So JESUS was not preaching or evangelizing, HE was making a proclamation or an announcement.

The announcement was probably similar to Hebrews 10:11-14

[Just_A_Guy]

Here is a partial list of the use of the term "kerusso" in the New Testament.

So, according to you, there was no "preaching" or "evangelizing" in any of these instances. Right?

EDIT: Fixed link.