Has there ever been a time other than now that women had rights

[Snow]

True, you did not say those things. But you seem like quite the proponent of celebrating your sense of gender-superiority. It would be wrong to say or imply that men are more important than women. It would be equally wrong to say or imply that women are more important than men. Obvious that you want to make it abundantly clear that men are much, much more important than women. So I draw that train of thought to it's logical conclusion (putting women back in their place) and you called me a liar for it.

Liar (your word) is such a harsh term - but call it what you like when someone (you) makes up false claims. The simple fact is that I think women, both now and in the past, should be much more equal to men, in opportunity, in accomplishment, in standing and stature. I think that one day women may have the priesthood and that would be perfectly fine with me.

You seem to be on a crusade, but I'm at a loss as to what the Crusade is for. Consider this gem of confusing nonsense:

Apparently you confuse easily. Let me simply it for you. The right to life is a right. That's why its called a right. Historically most women have had the right to life.

So ... exactly what are you driving at? Women had rights because they were allowed to live? And this ties into the topic how?

I don't think I can simply it anymore than that, so I'll just restate it. The OP implied that the historical existence of any rights of women was in question. As illustrated by the existence of the right to life, obviously women had rights. Moreover women had a sorts of other rights all across the ages and all across the globe.

Granted, women having the right to live is important, but I would say it's much to get all excited about. A man kept prisoner inside a latreen has a right to live, but I think we can all agree that his life sucks. I'm confused as to where you're going with your points.

Yes - I can see that you are. Would it help to repeat it once more? Asking is women had rights before the present day is not a very useful question.

That women have enough rights and shouldn't be given more? That men are a lot better than women, so women don't deserve any special consideration? I truly don't know where you're going with all this.

Women have spend the entirety of human history with significantly fewer rights than men, yet there has not been a good reason for this. Mostly excuses, enforced by the fact that men were stronger, so women couldn't make much fuss over being made less than equal. This is obviously true. My contention is that this is, was, and will always be wrong. Unrighteous dominion. Far too often, men taking control where they had no business controlling. Is your contention that I'm wrong to believe this? Or is there some other point you're trying to make here that I'm just not following?

See above.

Now let me ask you a question: What do you think of the anti-woman message - or even misogynist message of the Bible?

Edited March 22, 2009 by Snow

[WANDERER]

Perhaps those that believe they are predestined for salvation are actually right...may perhaps be a self-fulfilling prophecy ...certainly the concept of being a 'chosen people' is not unique. On the other hand you have to continue to maintain the belief that you are predestined and will act in a 'saved way' for your entire life...otherwise you might fit into the oposing category.

The we think we have it right and are saved and they have it wrong and are not saved concept is not a Calvinist monopoly. Predestination is just a little more 'in your face' than the concept of 'more valiant' spirits.

[GingerGolden]

If your teenagers bicker are they denying you a right?

No, it's called infringement, encroachment, I think...

...a form on trespassing. But one I will live with... :)

I was just trying to define my rights as I feel my rights are as an individual female. I'm not trying to speak for everyone, since perhaps what I consider essential as my personal rights may vary for other females.

I am stating what I consider my personal rights.

Looking for a females political rights should be available in some other area of the internet...

I offered what I offered in my own words, simply because you asked for a definition...

Can you define our rights as an individual female?

And just out of curiosity, do you have the right to tell any of us that we do not have the rights we consider as our own?

Are there any females here who would say that they do not have these types of personal rights?

What are some of the other individual female rights do others think to add?

Edited March 22, 2009 by GingerGolden

[Book_of_Mormon_Warrior]

Now let me ask you a question: What do you think of the anti-woman message - or even misogynist message of the Bible?

You mean like the stories of Esther, Ruth, and Deborah? Or the stories of of Mary, Mary and Martha, and Mary Magdelene?

I'm not buying the idea of your anti-woman Bible.

[WANDERER]

This is funny:

They sequenced the genome of half a dozen human males, a chimpanzee, a rat, a poplar tree, a bee, a chicken, a dog, a bovine, a sea urchin, a horse and a neandertal before they sequenced the female genome May 2008. It could have been worse...women beat soybeans. It took 7 years after sequencing the male genome to do that.

What science tell us:

The male and female gene is 98.4% the same. 78 genes different. Chimps are 98.7% the same.

?...chimps are closer to humanity than men are to women LOL.

Whatever happened to the sequenced female genome of May 2008...Leiden University...no public data released...was it fiction?

Another first claim here Science News / First Complete Cancer Genome Sequenced

For the first time, a complete cancer genome, and incidentally a complete female genome, has been decoded, scientists report online Nov. 5 in Nature.

Because this study was designed to find genes that were mutated in a cancer genome, researchers omitted the DNA sequences from the sex chromosomes, the Xs and Ys, when making comparisons. Little is known about the differences between a male and a female genome.

Followed by a mammoth, a platypus.....the rhinovirus....

Maybe in 2010?

Edited March 22, 2009 by wandering

[Dravin]

I was just trying to define my rights as I feel my rights are as an individual female. I'm not trying to speak for everyone, since perhaps what I consider essential as my personal rights may vary for other females.

I am stating what I consider my personal rights.

Thing is rights are rights, or at least the rights we are supposed to be entitled to we all are. If you say you have X right than either everyone has X right, or should have X right, unless of course one is maintaining one should have rights above and beyond others. A right is not simply a statement of how you think you should be treated, else I would agree. I don't want people to lie to me either, I just don't have a right to have them not do so at least from my point of view. I'd also like people to give me $100 when ever they see me, I have no right to people giving me money, they are free to do so of course but if they don't my right isn't being violated, because it doesn't exists.

Can you define our rights as an individual female?

Sure, because it boils down to human rights, and while male, I am human. In the arena of equal rights its easy for a male to define what rights a female should have, because they should be the same ones as I have (there are of course a few exceptions, such as reproductive health and the like where where say a man having the right not to have anybody forcing him to abort his child doesn't really carry straight acrossed that well). The intent of the question was to nail down just what rights we were talking about women having so we could say, "Yeah, in X culture women could do that." thing is some of your rights I'd argue nobody has so it doesn't narrow things down any.

And just out of curiosity, do you have the right to tell any of us that we do not have the rights we consider as our own?

Yes:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Not that my right to say such means I'm correct, but then I covered that:

Thing is just calling something a right doesn't make it so, of course the converse is true, saying something isn't a right doesn't make it not so.

In the end neither of our assertions that something is a right has more weight than the other, at least not on the face of it, thus the attempt to enter into a discussion on the rights so mentioned and their validity. I can say I have a right to a corndog at 3:15pm every Tuesday, I can also say I don't have a right to not be sold into slavery in the US, neither assertion has any bearing on whether such is actually the case or not.

What are some of the other individual female rights do others think to add?

Things like equal pay for equal work.

Not being able to be sold into slavery.

Not being discriminated for job opportunities based on sex.

Weight of testimony regardless of sex.

Pretty much anything covered in the bill of rights (and yes, there is some overlap here).

Edited March 22, 2009 by Dravin
Made it flow better.

[WANDERER]

I have so many more rights than my great grandmother's great grandmother...okay...I'll pay that. But not the same rights as men in practice...that they may be written down on paper in some Bill of Rights is kind of nifty...but just a piece of paper.

If 10 years later we aren't all that interested in sequencing a female genome...and all the health implications that go with that...then the cultural valuing isn't there. It's the modern day equivalent of a biology text without any mentioning of women.

A time other than now.

I'm kind of tired of being told I have more rights than any other women have ever had before... my great grandmothers great grandmother would have thought exactly the same thing...I'm sure its not historically unique. Women have always been told that their rights are being best protected by the decisions that are made and they have even fought hard to maintain the status quo..Yes, women have been entirely sure in many cases that their rights would be limited by any attempts to change them..such was the case with women getting the vote.

[wildbids]

Woman were created as a companion for man and to serve their husband.

[Snow]

I have so many more rights than my great grandmother's great grandmother...okay...I'll pay that. But not the same rights as men in practice...that they may be written down on paper in some Bill of Rights is kind of nifty...but just a piece of paper.

If 10 years later we aren't all that interested in sequencing a female genome...and all the health implications that go with that...then the cultural valuing isn't there. It's the modern day equivalent of a biology text without any mentioning of women.

A time other than now.

I'm kind of tired of being told I have more rights than any other women have ever had before... my great grandmothers great grandmother would have thought exactly the same thing...I'm sure its not historically unique. Women have always been told that their rights are being best protected by the decisions that are made and they have even fought hard to maintain the status quo..Yes, women have been entirely sure in many cases that their rights would be limited by any attempts to change them..such was the case with women getting the vote.

Could you specify exactly what rights you believe that you are entitled to that you do not have?

[Moksha]

I found an even stronger one than that: In countries where divorce is legal there are a lot more divorces then in countries where it isn't!

You have keen insight!

Xena, Boudica and the Hulk walk into a bar and order three cans of beer. Boudica winks at Xena, and then says, "wonder who can smash a beer can flat against their forehead the fastest?". The Hulk feeling that the entire correctness of male authority and supremacy rests in his hands, quickly picks up the full beer can and smashes it flat against his forehead. He is covered in beer.

The two women look at themselves and begin laughing. Xena said, "you're right, he did use the unopened can". The Hulk looks angry, smashes the table and shouts, "no like laughed at and besides I won bet".

This of course illustrates the difference between men and women.*

*Don't blame the writers, this was a Moksha original.

[GingerGolden]

Hmmm... Edited March 23, 2009 by GingerGolden

[solomon-helaman]

In countries that don't allow divorce or make it difficult we see many men just going out and finding mistresses. It happened to my mother-in-law, bless her heart. I think an earlier post put it well, by saying women need to teach their young boys to respect women.

[a-train]

All women have their rights, it is simply a question of whether or not they are being violated. I doubt any human being will ever or has ever lived without their rights being violated.

-a-train

[WANDERER]

Could you specify exactly what rights you believe that you are entitled to that you do not have?

The basic principles of human rights are

• being safe and protected from harm e.g. the right to health, the right to life.

• being treated fairly and with dignity

• freedom

• taking an active part in your community and wider society e.g. the right to education

All very conceptual and subjective...the challenge is in the application as A-Train has stated.

My beef with failing to sequence the female genome is the health and medical implications (see scientific genetic research that looks at the need to tailor medication to gender e.g. livers and medication, effect and lack of effect of drugs on women and the latest research in stats on vunerabilities to certain diseases..uterine and breast cancer, higher female rate of alzheimers), lack of participation and the lack of dignity. It's a women's health issue. It's a family issue. What is not understandable?

Data is available from the World Economic Forum Global Gender Gap Report of 2007 if you wish to take a close look at how your nation ranks in terms of genders accessing rights such as careers, education, salaries, superannuation, healthcare, child and mother mortality, maternity leave etc...

You can find it here: World Economic Forum - Gender Gap

I haven't really directly answered your question...there are various lenses for looking at the original poster's question:

1. She/He is discussing personal entitlements... or individual rights within the framework of women's rights.

2. They are discussing women's/human rights.

3. Others are responding as' the authoritative I' and discussing divine principles: helpmeet, companion etc

I don't have a great deal to say in terms of number one and three...I have more thinking to do perhaps.

[a-train]

The biggest trouble with respect to the issue of human rights is the lack of defintion that so many suffer from. People believe they have rights they do not have and that they do not have rights which they do.

Right to Life. First and foremost of all human rights is the right to life. This right is extended to the individual in life itself. The parent, in giving to the child life, has extended also the rights thereof.

Right of Property. The right to life must inherently include the right to subsistance. Life cannot be sustained without it. Each individual has a right to combine his/her labor with the earth and its resources in providing for themselves subsistance. This right is the right of property. The discussion of property can get lengthy, but John Locke's Second Treatise on Government gives a somewhat thorough one.

There can be no theft if there is no right of property. If there is no right of property, then the eighth commandment in the Decalogue is meaningless.

Right of Conscience. Associated also with the right to life and subsistance are the rights of the mind, the right to freely think and believe and communicate those thoughts with others. Freedom of speech and religion are among those things comprising the right of conscience. The Declaration of Independence includes the phrase "pursuit of happiness" in reference to the right of conscience.

President George Washington said in a famous letter to the United Baptists Churches of Virginia in May of 1789 that every man: "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience." Compare that to the 11th Article of Faith which says: "We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience".

Liberty. What good is the right of conscience if a man is not free to pursue happiness as his conscience would dictate? Not only have we the right to believe as we will, but to live accordingly.

Many muddle human rights. Many believe they have a right to the property of others. Governments have long been and continue to be used to violate the rights of man. Many times they do so paying lip service to "human rights" all along.

Worse than defining them, many have no idea how to go about protecting them. Often governments trample them in the effort to do so. Those rights most often trampled are property rights. An onslaught of efforts have been raised to take property from the rightful owners and give it to the politically favored. The real tragedy of this is that resources are taken from productive economic entities and given to unproductive entities, thus contributing to scarcity and even poverty.

Women have their rights as do men, it is our responsibility to know them and defend them.

-a-train

Edited March 23, 2009 by a-train

[GingerGolden]

Thank You A-Train!

I do believe that although what I wrote before (in my own words, which would be my Freedom of Speech rights) are my rights to Life, Property, Conscience & Liberty!

[GingerGolden]

I'll have to wait for some kind soul to help me out with his mechanical skills to do so though...

I just want to make a small note here, that my car is fixed.

Had 2 or 3 fellows only look at it, and one who I really wish had never touched it, cause he wound up playing monkey with my 1991 Buick Regal Limited Edition factory installed battery cables. If I'd have known what he was planning to do before he did it, I'd have run him away from my car. (Gals, think twice if you ever come across someone who wants to play mechanic with a pocket knife and a role of electrical tape.)

The day was saved however by a 24 year old girl and her 11 month old baby.

She came out here, found the problem, took me to town and then replaced my starter for me. I also had to buy a new battery.

The car goes zoom, zoom, Zooooooom!

Edited April 5, 2009 by GingerGolden

[WANDERER]

I think the whole title of the thread is really bizarre...especially the word 'now'.

Women have their rights as do men, it is our responsibility to know them and defend them.

This is paradoxical...do you need to fight for rights that you already have or is a position of defence or protection only possible when you have gained those rights already? Are those rights reality or do they need to be tried and tested...?

The right to property....it would be good if women could be employed and support their families without having to face the fact that their income is severely reduced due to childcare costs. Currently our government is looking at increasing the costs of pregnancy and hospital care by several thousand dollars and cutting the childcare subsidy. At the same time it is beneficial for those women not to work if they have another income to rely on because there are family tax benefits that will leave their families better off economically. For women who are raising their families on their salary alone...this leaves them the option of welfare. It impacts on the mother's future employment, career opportunities, medical insurance and superannuation and on their families in the longterm. The government was elected on the promise of maternity leave. The right to property is being strongly insisted on....not as an entitlement but as fair pay for fair work.....a loooooong time now.

The question is not whether it is a right. I'm sure people believe in the right to freedom and property right along with inconsistencies. Feel free to tell the women who are having acid poored on them for getting an education or rape victims that they are just not doing a very good job of knowing and protecting their rights or, for that matter, to tell them that they have the rights that they do not have.

Knowing and defending your rights is not enough.

Edited April 5, 2009 by wandering

[Moksha]

Why is the fate of humanity inextricably tied to the successful segregation and confinement of homemaker and breadwinner or gender based roles?

I think of it much like the racial struggle: When ears are finally ready to hear God's love for all, things will change.

I heard that today a black man of African descent became a member of the Quorum of the Seventy. Does that not sound encouraging in a slow and gradual way?

:)