Seer stones

[Snow]

I said thsi befor and I say it again... WHAT would a person from 1830 think of a mobiletelphone? or a similar thing... you sure would see the text better in a hat as the scribe would need light to write. Maybe the curtin between the scribe and JS was also to keep the light away?

I guess you haven't heard - the pictures we grew up on, JS at a table pouring over the plates, separated by a curtain from the scribe is wrong.

More accurate picture is no curtain, the plates covered by a blanket or not even present, Joseph Smith with his face in an upside down hat placed on his lap.

[deseretgov]

I found some pictures of that online. I wish we were presented with these stories. They could be so powerful. I think if presented properly these stories could be huge testimony builders. After doing some research about the "peep stone" and Joseph Smith working as a treasure hunter. My testimoney was strengthened. Joseph Smith definately was special. Couldn't the "treasure hunting" power be a special gift the God gave him to use the seer stone, to translate the Book of Mormon, and to do other things. If he had this power since he was young maybe he didn't really understand it properly before recieving the gold plates.

Also about the Urim and Thummim vs. Seer stone. I'm not sure if this has been brought up before but maybe the Seer stone Joseph found we more attuned to Joseph, his brainwaves or whatever. The Urim and Thummim would have been attuned to another person. The seer stone was Joseph Smiths "personalized" tool rather than the "generic" Urimm and Thummim. So it wouldn't be about the power of the device but rather the compatability.

[Snow]

Also about the Urim and Thummim vs. Seer stone. I'm not sure if this has been brought up before but maybe the Seer stone Joseph found we more attuned to Joseph, his brainwaves or whatever. The Urim and Thummim would have been attuned to another person. The seer stone was Joseph Smiths "personalized" tool rather than the "generic" Urimm and Thummim. So it wouldn't be about the power of the device but rather the compatability.

This is true.

Recent double-reverse, hyperphilated, level-3 testing has confirmed that the image resonance of the stone reverberates at a quantum level matching that of Hyrum Smith's descendants - being a DNA proxy of Joseph Smith.

Excellent point and very rational.

[deseretgov]

recent double-reverse, hyperphilated, level-3 testing has confirmed that the image resonance of the stone reverberates at a quantum level matching that of hyrum smith's descendants - being a dna proxy of joseph smith.

what?!?!?!

[tubaloth]

That's kind of an irrelevant point with Joseph Smith. As an unbaptised, un-ordained believer, he was receiving personal visits from God the Father, God the Son, receiving personal visits from Celestial angels, receiving scripture-ready revelation, etc.

Yet with all of this, being baptized and having the Holy Ghost fall upon him “Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of.”

Something was still missing until Joseph Smith was baptized and go the Holy Ghost

Seriously - what kind of power could the U & T have had? Internal combustion? Electromagnetism?

Revelation comes from God / Holy Ghost. The U & T had no power of it's own.

I have no idea. What power did the Liahona have? Obviously Nephi could figure out by Revelation and the Holy Ghost which direction to go. But God still gave them something they didn’t have. By there faithfulness it worked, even having word or instructions appear on it. I think the U & T was more of a way for Joseph Smith to figure out how Revelation comes. From Section 8 & 9 we learn that’s really what Joseph Smith was trying to do (and what Oliver failed at). They were trying to recived answers to there prayers (which all can do, member and non-member). But they needed some device for them to either harness this power. Having this device allowed them have faith, and or focus what ever gift or answer they were trying to get.

The U & T was taken away after the lost 116 pages.

And there is no support for this idea.

Hyrmn and Joseph Smith mother both teach the Moroni said the U & T would be restored.

“I would of necessity have to suffer the consequences of his indiscretion, and I must now give up the Urim and Thummim into his (the angel's) hands.

"This I did as I was directed, and as I handed them to him, he remarked, 'If you are very humble and penitent, it may be you will receive them again; if so, it will be on the twenty-second of next September.'"

"After the angel left me," said he, "I continued my supplications to God, without cessation, and on the twenty-second of September, I had the joy and satisfaction of again receiving the Urim and Thummim, with which I have again commenced translating, and Emma writes for me, but the angel said that the Lord would send me a scribe, and I trust his promise will be verified. The angel seemed pleased with me when he gave me back the Urim and Thummim, and he told me that the Lord loved me, for my faithfulness and humility."

(Lucy Mack Smith, History of Joseph Smith by His Mother [salt Lake City: Stevens & Wallis, Inc., 1945], 135.)

I have yet to read any commentary by anybody that suggests Section 8 and 9 of the D & C was not with the U & T.

Even the link you provided from FAIR states this (under the heading of Why did use of the seer stones subside?)

“The Urim and Thummim were the means of receiving most of the formal revelations until June 1829.”

This would mean the U & T was returned to Joseph Smith.

“That was the time of completing the Book of Mormon, which was translated through the Urim and Thummim and also the seer stone.”

Joseph Smith got the priesthood May 15, Joseph Smith would be done with the book of mormon by the end of June 1829.

“Following his baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and ordination to the Melchizedek priesthood, Joseph seems have felt far less need to resort to the stones.[28] He had learned, through divine tutoring, how to receive unmediated revelation—the Lord had taken him "line upon line" from where he was (surrounded with beliefs about seeing and divining) and brought him to further light, knowledge, and power.”

This actually kind of sounds familiar. Before the Baptism and Holy Ghost, Joseph Smith need help to translated. The only place I can see this help come is in the form of the U & T. After this time, as the FAIR states, Joseph Smith didn’t need much help. I contend that is when the seer stone was used for a time, until even it dropped off.

[Soul_Searcher]

I guess you haven't heard - the pictures we grew up on, JS at a table pouring over the plates, separated by a curtain from the scribe is wrong.

More accurate picture is no curtain, the plates covered by a blanket or not even present, Joseph Smith with his face in an upside down hat placed on his lap.

Why is it portrayed this way if its wrong?? I was taught this was the literal way.

[Snow]

Why is it portrayed this way if its wrong?? I was taught this was the literal way.

I am not qualified to answer that but my supposition is either:

1. The CES - Church Educational System - simply perpetuated an earlier mistaken idea,

or

2. Someone made a conscious decision that Joseph Smith with his faced buried in a hat was a little too uncomfortable for general consumption.

[Snow]

what?!?!?!

I was responding to the gobble-de-gook of the poster deseretgov.

[Moksha]

2. Someone made a conscious decision that Joseph Smith with his faced buried in a hat was a little too uncomfortable for general consumption.

The artwork on this rendition leaves much to be desired. I would like to see it redone from another angle in the heroic style of the murals at the Visitor's Center. A light from an unseen source shining down upon him would also be a nice touch.

[Elphaba]

Joseph Smith didn’t need much help. I contend that is when the seer stone was used for a time, until even it dropped off.

An interesting sidenote: Joseph never stopped believing in the power of the seer stone. In fact, he encouraged members to find one for themselves and use it; however, a number of times when someone brought him a seer stone that had worked for him/her, Joseph declared it true, but a work of the devil.

Brigham Young (though he claimed no talent for it), Orson Pratt, Heber C. Kimball, and Orson Hyde also encouraged the Saints to find and use their own seerstones.

Innumerable Saints used their own seerstones in Palmyra, Kirtland, and Nauvoo. This continued during the pioneer period in Utah, especially in the cities of Salt Lake City, Tooele, Parowan, Kaysville and Logan. The Saints also used them in Cardston, Canada.

Women were especially adept at using them, and are often credited, by members at the time, for finding lost cattle, lost children, the faces of future husbands or wives, etc.

It was around the 1880s when Church authorities began advising against the use of seerstones, especially with women, as they did not hold the priesthood. They believed the Church needed to move from its "folk magic" beginnings. After this the use of seerstones dropped off significantly.

However, it never stopped completely, and in fact, a number of members still used them. As late is 1985 a few women in the Relif Society in Portland, Oregon used them for spiritual guidance.

This is all from Early Magic and the Mormon Worldview, D. Michael Quinn, pp. 247-255 entitled "Seer Stones--Other People's." It is a fascinating read for people interested in the Church's use of seer stones.

Elphaba

[Snow]

An interesting sidenote: Joseph never stopped believing in the power of the seer stone. In fact, he encouraged members to find one for themselves and use it; however, a number of times when someone brought him a seer stone that had worked for him/her, Joseph declared it true, but a work of the devil.

Thanks for the interesting backdrop El.

I myself have a Seer Electric Can Opener. It is not much good at helping me to "translate" or receive revelation but it can open a can of french-cut green beans in about 7 seconds flat.

[deseretgov]

Here's some image I found:

[Moksha]

It was around the 1880s when Church authorities began advising against the use of seerstones, especially with women, as they did not hold the priesthood.

Elphaba

Elphaba, has this injunction stopped you from finding your own seer stone.

[Hemidakota]

I think that the simple answer is - he didn't (need them). He simply found them useful. He outgrew them as he matured.

Hmm...I don't recall that is the true intent since he was still using the seer stone after the U&T. Whether you call it maturity or I call it matter of convince, Joseph still used the seer stone and held it in his pocket.

[talisyn]

Thanks for the interesting backdrop El.

I myself have a Seer Electric Can Opener. It is not much good at helping me to "translate" or receive revelation but it can open a can of french-cut green beans in about 7 seconds flat.

I bet it's also capable of summoning various felines and canines as circumstances permit

[FunkyTown]

LDS.org - New Era Article - What Did the Golden Plates Look Like?

I think we should concentrate more on what the church says about the 'Seer stones' and the golden plates.

Considering that a 60 pound set of golden plates(As described by the members) would most likely not fit in a typical hat of those times (Unless Joseph had a huge head, admittedly) , I find this description of events somewhat difficult to believe.

[talisyn]

LDS.org - New Era Article - What Did the Golden Plates Look Like?

I think we should concentrate more on what the church says about the 'Seer stones' and the golden plates.

Considering that a 60 pound set of golden plates(As described by the members) would most likely not fit in a typical hat of those times (Unless Joseph had a huge head, admittedly) , I find this description of events somewhat difficult to believe.

Good point. Personally, I think Bro. Joseph may have had migraines and used the hat to block out the light. Heaven knows I've done that myself

[ruthiechan]

Sorry I got back to this so late. Life gobbled me up. Then I forgot about it until recently.

You're welcome and thank you for your wonderfully sarcastic response Ms Kettle.

You're welcome Pot.

Gee - if God didn't want innocent babies to be abused and murders, why would He allow it? You're not making much of a point here; besides which, I never said God didn't want it. Perhaps he thought it would help out the superstitious Joseph as he matured.

Snow, I am surprised by this response. Each of us has the agency to choose to do good or evil. If he didn't allow people to exercise their agency to abuse and murder babies or any other innocent then God would be a liar. If he stopped those horrible things from happening then we wouldn't really have a choice between good and evil. I am sure you know this.

So what does that have to do with God giving a righteous person an instrument to help that person do His works? Do you really think that God would allow someone to use something to invoke His powers on Earth if He did not choose to allow it?

Again I ask - who dedicated it? When? Where? What are your sources?

I simply have conjecture.

And maybe prior to using the stone for the BoM he used it to hire himself out, perhaps without much enthusiam, and use it to hunt for buried treasure.

Oh wait - that's not a maybe. That's what he did... and by his own admission, he wasn't very good at it and outgrew it.

Might have something to do with maybe God not wanting him to use the seer stone for such purposes.

I am curious to know just how you think that the truth may shake someone's testimony.

Truth can be subjective.

I am not clear on what your point is. Do you think that you not knowing about it is somehow significant? If you are up for serious study you can try D. Michael Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View. That's only one of many, many, sources. While I don't accept his conclusions, he is a top notch LDS history scholar whose use of primary sources is massive.

Uh, my point? Significance? I think you read more into my initial question than was there. It's only significant to me personally. Thanks for the reading though.