Women in the Scriptures

[Ezequiel]

I was having a very good conversation with my sister in law. She is a recent convert of about three months. Since she has been baptised, we hold a daily joint scripture reading group with me, her, and my younger brother. They are very good, 'cause we often discuss very important topics of religion.

However, the other day as we studied, somehow the conversation led to her explaining how she used to have a grudge with the fact that the scriptures doesn't make mention of of women's name. For example, we never find out about the name of the wives of many Book of Mormon prophets, and even many others. While she realises that women play very important roles in the scriptures, and her 'grudge' is gone, she still wants some sort of explanation. I just didn't know what to say to her!! Does anybody have any idea as to what could be the reason why some women go nameless in the scriptures?

[Maxel]

I think part of it is a cultural thing; part of it is an honor thing. If women's names don't appear in the Book of Mormon, the women mentioned therein are far less likely to attract ridicule at the hands of living people. I personally believe we have a Heavenly Mother, and that the reason we don't read about Her in the scriptures or hear about Her in sermons is that God the Father prefers to keep her shielded from being blasphemed by the swine that would trample on the pearls of knowledge about Her.

Another thing, though- men are the heads of households and act as the living prophets and apostles. Scriptures- by their nature dealing with prophets and apostles and social structures- would deal far more with men than with women because that is the nature of sacred record. We find many examples where women are mentioned, sometimes by name- Sariah Lehi's wife, Abish the faithful Lamanitish woman, Rachel and Leah the wives of Jacob- because they play direct, key roles in the story.

[Wingnut]

I think it's more cultural. Biblical and Book of Mormon times and societies were very Patriarchal.

The Bible names many women specifically. The Book of Mormon, however, only mentions four women by name: Sariah (Lehi's wife), Abish (the Lamanitish woman), Isabel (the harlot), and Mary (the mother of Jesus).

[Vort]

A hundred billion people have lived on the Earth. How many of them, male or female, are mentioned by name in the scriptures? Almost none.

The scriptures focus primarily on types, either righteous types as exemplified by (male) prophets, Priesthood leaders, and righteous kings, or evil types as exemplified by wicked (male) kings and other leaders. Supporting players, male or female, are usually mentioned only in context of these primary types. Thus, few people outside of leaders are named in scripture; hence, most named scripture figures are men.

As I see it, the scriptures by and large mention four classes of people by name:

1. Prophets (including leaders/kings of Israel) and other leaders called by God (including those often referred to as the Patriarchs)

2. Leaders of nations that interact with prophets

3. Intimate associates of prophets

4. Individuals whose history illustrates a specific principle

#1 includes men but (almost) no women. Throughout the historical periods covered by scripture, #2 includes men but (almost) no women. The last two include both men and women, but also constitute the smallest of the four types.

Thus in group #3, we hear of Mary Jesus' mother, Mary Magdalene, Mary and Martha (all close associates with Jesus), Emma (Joseph's wife), and Abish (daughter of an unnamed Lamanite prophet). Such women as Eve and Sarah also arguably belong to this group, though you could make an argument for a group called matriarchs that would either be a fifth type or would fold in with #1.

Women in group #4 include women such as Ruth, Naomi, and Esther.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

[Vort]

I personally believe we have a Heavenly Mother, and that the reason we don't read about Her in the scriptures or hear about Her in sermons is that God the Father prefers to keep her shielded from being blasphemed by the swine that would trample on the pearls of knowledge about Her.

I have often heard this theory, but I don't buy it at all, for several reasons:

1. The fact that we know we have a "heavenly Mother" is knowledge enough to mock and blaspheme her existence, as some do. There is no "protection" in revealing the existence of someone but not giving a name, since "heavenly Mother" is name enough.

2. God's eternal wife is a being of like power and glory with himself. Having some callow, foolish mortal children mocking her would hardly be enough to cause her any harm, any more than mocking of our Father harms him. I actually find the idea of God "protecting" his wife from "harmful mocking" to be insulting and, frankly, blasphemous (though let me add I'm certainly not accusing Maxel of blasphemy).

3. Christ made it perfectly clear that we are to worship the Father in his (Christ's) name by the power of the Holy Ghost. This is the real, ultimate reason we don't know much about "heavenly Mother": She is not the object of our present worship, nor is it appropriate that she be. We have already had at least one very visible apostate who, it appears, was excommunicated for refusing to stop preaching about praying to "heavenly Mother".

We know that we have a "Mother in heaven", a counterpart to our Father whom we worship. That should be sufficient for us at this stage.

[Honor]

There is an AMAZING talk/book? on tape by Dr. John Lund called Daughters of Eve. It's a beautiful look at our roles as women in general with parts of it focusing on women in the scriptures, especially in the life of the Savior. Not exactly in answer to your question, but I think it would be something that you and your sister in law would appreciate.

PS: Sorry, for some reason I was thinking you were a girl as well. I'm sure that you'd enjoy the talk too though! :)

Edited April 20, 2009 by Honor

[Ezequiel]

ok, so I guess, it would have to go with something like importance and relevance to the story!?

As I continue to meditate this subject, I keep thinking of a bunch of women who not only are named, but celebrated for their righteousness and importance...

Thanks for all your insights!

[Snow]

I was having a very good conversation with my sister in law. She is a recent convert of about three months. Since she has been baptised, we hold a daily joint scripture reading group with me, her, and my younger brother. They are very good, 'cause we often discuss very important topics of religion.

However, the other day as we studied, somehow the conversation led to her explaining how she used to have a grudge with the fact that the scriptures doesn't make mention of of women's name. For example, we never find out about the name of the wives of many Book of Mormon prophets, and even many others. While she realises that women play very important roles in the scriptures, and her 'grudge' is gone, she still wants some sort of explanation. I just didn't know what to say to her!! Does anybody have any idea as to what could be the reason why some women go nameless in the scriptures?

It's very clear.

1 Corinthian 14:

34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

and

1 Timothy 2:

11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

[Vort]

I think it's more cultural. Biblical and Book of Mormon times and societies were very Patriarchal.

The Bible names many women specifically. The Book of Mormon, however, only mentions four women by name: Sariah (Lehi's wife), Abish (the Lamanitish woman), Isabel (the harlot), and Mary (the mother of Jesus).

The Book of Mormon also mentions Eve in 1 Nephi 5:11.

[Justice]

Some things I found interesting in my last reading of the Book of Mormon:

1 Nephi 7:

6 And it came to pass that as we journeyed in the wilderness, behold Laman and Lemuel, and two of the daughters of Ishmael, and the two sons of Ishmael and their families, did rebel against us; yea, against me, Nephi, and Sam, and their father, Ishmael, and his wife, and his three other daughters.

Obviously, the 2 daughters of Ishmael that rebelled married Laman and Lemuel. The 3 that didn't married Nephi, Sam, and Jacob, or Joseph (?).

They bound him and he prayed for strength to break them. A little later:

19 And it came to pass that they were angry with me again, and sought to lay hands upon me; but behold, one of the daughters of Ishmael, yea, and also her mother, and one of the sons of Ishmael, did plead with my brethren, insomuch that they did soften their hearts; and they did cease striving to take away my life.

My guess is this is the daughter of Ishmael that Nephi married.

After Lehi dies Nephi is told to leave the land of Nephi.

2 Nephi 5:

6 Wherefore, it came to pass that I, Nephi, did take my family, and also Zoram and his family, and Sam, mine elder brother and his family, and Jacob and Joseph, my younger brethren, and also my sisters, and all those who would go with me. And all those who would go with me were those who believed in the warnings and the revelations of God; wherefore, they did hearken unto my words.

It doesn't mention Lehi's wife here. I don't recall it ever mentioning when she dies. And, I don't know why I had always assumed Nephi was next oldest after Lemuel, but this scripture says Sam was older.

Just some interesting things I found that are kind of related to this discussion.

[Wingnut]

The Book of Mormon also mentions Eve in 1 Nephi 5:11.

Good call...I'd never picked up on that one.

The 3 that didn't married Nephi, Sam, and Jacob, or Joseph (?).

Considering the ages, I think they probably married Nephi, Sam, and Zoram.

[Wingnut]

The 3 that didn't married Nephi, Sam, and Jacob, or Joseph (?).

Considering the ages, I think they probably married Nephi, Sam, and Zoram.

[Hemidakota]

I was having a very good conversation with my sister in law. She is a recent convert of about three months. Since she has been baptised, we hold a daily joint scripture reading group with me, her, and my younger brother. They are very good, 'cause we often discuss very important topics of religion.

However, the other day as we studied, somehow the conversation led to her explaining how she used to have a grudge with the fact that the scriptures doesn't make mention of of women's name. For example, we never find out about the name of the wives of many Book of Mormon prophets, and even many others. While she realises that women play very important roles in the scriptures, and her 'grudge' is gone, she still wants some sort of explanation. I just didn't know what to say to her!! Does anybody have any idea as to what could be the reason why some women go nameless in the scriptures?

She should spend more time in searching the scriptures vice railing, she will find many great sisters within, even some who stood as Prophetess to the land.

Edited April 21, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Guest missingsomething]

I was having a very good conversation with my sister in law. She is a recent convert of about three months. Since she has been baptised, we hold a daily joint scripture reading group with me, her, and my younger brother. They are very good, 'cause we often discuss very important topics of religion.

However, the other day as we studied, somehow the conversation led to her explaining how she used to have a grudge with the fact that the scriptures doesn't make mention of of women's name. For example, we never find out about the name of the wives of many Book of Mormon prophets, and even many others. While she realises that women play very important roles in the scriptures, and her 'grudge' is gone, she still wants some sort of explanation. I just didn't know what to say to her!! Does anybody have any idea as to what could be the reason why some women go nameless in the scriptures?

Personally I feel this is a reverence thing. Though maxel is partly right because culturally this was common for the time. However, if Heavenly Father wanted their name to be known - they would have been.

We believe we have a mother in heaven, yet little is mentioned/known about her - i believe this is from the love and respect our Heavenly Father has for women.

[Guest missingsomething]

I have often heard this theory, but I don't buy it at all, for several reasons:

1. The fact that we know we have a "heavenly Mother" is knowledge enough to mock and blaspheme her existence, as some do. There is no "protection" in revealing the existence of someone but not giving a name, since "heavenly Mother" is name enough.

2. God's eternal wife is a being of like power and glory with himself. Having some callow, foolish mortal children mocking her would hardly be enough to cause her any harm, any more than mocking of our Father harms him. I actually find the idea of God "protecting" his wife from "harmful mocking" to be insulting and, frankly, blasphemous

While I thank you for your point of view- I respectfully disagree. The role of the priesthood is to guide the family, to protect the family. As a women who is strong and assertive and doesnt take crap from people (hmm can i say crap here?)...anyways... I STILL want to be respected, cared for, and shielded from some stuff...doesnt make me weak nor reduces my worth as a daughter of a heavenly father, as a mother of children whom I am given the task to bring back to a Father in Heaven, or as a wife....or as an author, artist, friend... Because I also believe most women feel on a much deeper level - the saying "sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me"... well that had to be thought up by a guy cuz as a girl... words hurt more than actions.

So, as a guy - I appreciate your opinion, but i am so much more sure of my worth that the idea of someone "protecting me" does not make me feel weak.

[Snow]

...anyways... I STILL want to be respected, cared for, and shielded from some stuff...doesnt make me weak .

I don't know if that is what makes you weak - but according to 2 Tm 2:19-21, you are.

[lestertheemt]

I am going to take a brief aside for just a moment: If every one that has posted here would/could think of the 10 or even 20 most influential individuals in history were.....Would that list be made up as mostly male?? My guess is that it probably would be.

I think (IMHO) that it is a historical and cultural accurance. Does it diminish the role of women? No, absolutely not! Women have been and continue to be honored and revered in the gospel. As a prime example, who did Jesus first appear to after his death?

Just my 2 cents.

[Snow]

I am going to take a brief aside for just a moment: If every one that has posted here would/could think of the 10 or even 20 most influential individuals in history were.....Would that list be made up as mostly male?? My guess is that it probably would be.

I think (IMHO) that it is a historical and cultural accurance. Does it diminish the role of women? No, absolutely not! Women have been and continue to be honored and revered in the gospel. As a prime example, who did Jesus first appear to after his death?

Just my 2 cents.

In Michael Hart's excellent book - The 100 (A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History), Queen Isabella comes in at 68, Queen Elizabeth at 95, and an honorable mention for Marie Curie.

I highly recommend the book.

[Hemidakota]

Sorry, subjectiveness....the first woman who had the most influence on this world, is Eve, second to her was Mary.

[lestertheemt]

If you read my post.....I didn't say women would not be on the list......I only said that perhaps more men then women would be on it.

[Madriglace]

Women don't necessarily need to be named to have their influence felt. To me one of the greatest testimonies to the power and influence of women in the scriptures is that of the 2000 stripling warriors.

[Snow]

Sorry, subjectiveness....the first woman who had the most influence on this world, is Eve, second to her was Mary.

The author limited his work to real historical people.

However, using your logic, the first 50 most influential people... Christ, Paul, Muhammad, Columbus, Einstein, Darwin, Euclid, Napolean, etc would be followed by their moms as the second 50. Kind of a fun exercise, but pointless.

[Hemidakota]

A hundred billion people have lived on the Earth. How many of them, male or female, are mentioned by name in the scriptures? Almost none.

The scriptures focus primarily on types, either righteous types as exemplified by (male) prophets, Priesthood leaders, and righteous kings, or evil types as exemplified by wicked (male) kings and other leaders. Supporting players, male or female, are usually mentioned only in context of these primary types. Thus, few people outside of leaders are named in scripture; hence, most named scripture figures are men.

As I see it, the scriptures by and large mention four classes of people by name:

1. Prophets (including leaders/kings of Israel) and other leaders called by God (including those often referred to as the Patriarchs)

2. Leaders of nations that interact with prophets

3. Intimate associates of prophets

4. Individuals whose history illustrates a specific principle

#1 includes men but (almost) no women. Throughout the historical periods covered by scripture, #2 includes men but (almost) no women. The last two include both men and women, but also constitute the smallest of the four types.

Thus in group #3, we hear of Mary Jesus' mother, Mary Magdalene, Mary and Martha (all close associates with Jesus), Emma (Joseph's wife), and Abish (daughter of an unnamed Lamanite prophet). Such women as Eve and Sarah also arguably belong to this group, though you could make an argument for a group called matriarchs that would either be a fifth type or would fold in with #1.

Women in group #4 include women such as Ruth, Naomi, and Esther.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

Here is the closest image of Mary Magdalene...for those who wish to know.

CREDIT: Art wok done by Simon Dewey