S/O God Cannot Lie

[martybess]

There are times when we are justified in breaking God's law for a greater good.

Yes I agree. I think of it in the same way as Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit.

"Other acts, like operating without a license, are crimes only because they are legally prohibited. Under these distinctions, the act that produced the Fall was not a sin (inherently wrong) but a transgression (wrong because it was formally prohibited). These words are not always used to denote something different, but this distinction seems meaningful in the circumstances of the Fall” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1993, 98; or Ensign, Nov. 1993, 73) and when it's deemed as in this case.

-Marty

[pam]

TruthSeeker if I may ask a question of you. I am enjoying the discussion with you so please know I mean no offense whatsoever. But I want to make sure I understand where you are coming from.

You've quote many good scriptures. However, in YOUR personal opinion do you believe that it is all just black and white. That ANY lie, no matter the reason must be repented of and do you believe they are all lies brought on by Satan for deception?

[TruthSeekerToo]

All of these arguments fail to prove that God commands lying or that he is the author of any lies.

We sin. It is only because of the atonement of Christ that we are saved. We are not justified in our sins. The atonement pays the price of justice for us when we repent. Every lie was paid for.

He allows us to use our agency. He allows us to choose to lie (sin).

[TruthSeekerToo]

TruthSeeker if I may ask a question of you. I am enjoying the discussion with you so please know I mean no offense whatsoever. But I want to make sure I understand where you are coming from.

You've quote many good scriptures. However, in YOUR personal opinion do you believe that it is all just black and white. That ANY lie, no matter the reason must be repented of and do you believe they are all lies brought on by Satan for deception?

None taken.

In my journey right now I am pretty open (or trying to be) to whatever the Spirit teaches me. I am trying to study things out in my mind (on the internet) because it helps me a lot. I get a lot more info this way.

My opinion right now is that God never commands lying or killing of innocent children. I'm not so sure he commands any killing, but that is still up in the air.

I do believe it is in human nature to lie. So, I could see that even without the temptation of Satan that man might still lie on occasion. But, I also believe that most lying stems from fear. Fear seems to be a lack of faith, IMO.

[kiwii]

Second-Satan is the father of ALL lies

I thought it was, "Satan is the father of lies"

This also tells me that every lie ever told comes from the devil.

To my way of thinking, this implies that we have no free agency.

Deception of any kind, whether you're 'technically' being honest or not, with the intent to improve your circumstance or further your own cause, is clearly unacceptable. Anything else is a matter of conscience. Personally, I'd rather not be debating fine points come Judgment Day.

As for lying to help the Jews, I'm in agreement with Pam. I cannot accept that such an unselfish act of compassion could be of the devil.

Edit: Oops... I missed a couple of posts while writing this.

Edited April 24, 2009 by kiwii
I'm slow as molasses. :)

[pam]

My opinion right now is that God never commands lying or killing of innocent children

What about the story of Abraham and Isaac? The Lord commanded Abraham to kill Isaac. Though it never happened as Abraham was being tested...the Lord still commanded it and Abraham (though heartbroken) was going to do as commanded.

[pam]

I thought it was, "Satan is the father of lies"

Here is an exerpt of a talk by President Marion G. Romney

From these descriptions, is it not clear that what we have to do to get peace is obtain the fruit of the Spirit? Or to put it another way, since Lucifer “is the father of contention” (3 Ne. 11:29), the opposite of peace, the price of peace is victory over Satan.

I know that there are some in the world who deny the existence of a personal satan. This denial is false, being sponsored by the father of lies himself, but there is nothing new about it. The anti-Christs, at his bidding, have denied the existence of Satan from ancient times. The fact is, however, that Lucifer is a personage of spirit, just the same as Jesus and you and I were personages of spirit before we were born. In the spirit world, he was a personage of great ability. Isaiah refers to him as a son of the morning. “O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground,” he laments. (Isa. 14:12.)

Yet Lucifer rejected the Father’s plan for the salvation of the human race and sought to substitute his own plan. Not prevailing, he, with one third of the hosts of heaven, was “cast down, and … became Satan … the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will,” that is, those who will “not hearken unto my voice.” (Moses 4:3–4.)

[TruthSeekerToo]

What about the story of Abraham and Isaac? The Lord commanded Abraham to kill Isaac. Though it never happened as Abraham was being tested...the Lord still commanded it and Abraham (though heartbroken) was going to do as commanded.

That one is actually easy for me to understand. The story is full or symbolism. I don't believe he was literally being asked to physically kill his son Isaac. Even if that is what he initially thought.

Also, Abraham came from a people who believed in human sacrifice. How ironic! Again, so much symbolism here.

In a nutshell, Abraham was being asked to put it all on the alter-everything inside him. His heart, ego, traditions of his father, etc. And he did. Go Abraham!

I also believe there are many layers of understanding to the scriptures.

I also believe that the Lord reveals things in parables. The surface meaning is a story that the people of the time would relate to. The deeper meaning(s) are the spiritual message we should try to learn.

I'm falling asleep and my brain has stopped working. G'night!

[YoungMormonRoyalist]

pam, you forgot to add the "not" to your sentence!

BTW, I have to say that I do think those who strive to work against evil and preserve the lives of the innocent are heroes.

But, I have to think outloud here. If our physical life is so important than why is it okay to commit genocide sometimes?

Why would God command some people to lie to save their life while at the same time commanding others to kill?

So which is the greater show of love towards God? Saving an innocent from death by lying? Or admitting to hiding someone?

Which is the greater commandment?

"Greater love hath no man than this, that he should lay down his life for his friends."

or

"Thou shall not bear false witness."

After taking a class on Judaism and ancient Hebrew literature, one needs to take into context all situations and all sayings.

Lying itself is divided into two kinds.

The evil kind is the one associated with the Devil. This lying hurts. It hurts God, others, and is done for a wrong purpose. When Satan ''beguiled'' Eve it involved an intense, mult-level, suffering.

The other kind of lying, such as Abraham did, is not evil. A greater TRUTH (the opposite of a lie) was upheld

[Just_A_Guy]

Why would God command some people to lie to save their life while at the same time commanding others to kill?

This is an awesome question, and I'm having trouble developing a pat answer for it.

My inclination at present is that it revolves around the purpose of an individual's life. If the purposes of an individual's life are not going to be fulfilled in this mortal sphere, then from the Lord's standpoint there's no reason for not sending that individual on to the next stage of existence--particularly when that individual poses a threat to the purpose of the lives of others.

So, I would venture to say we are at least justified in (if not commanded outright to) saving the lives, at the very least, of individuals to whom the above-stated conditions do not apply.

[TruthSeekerToo]

This is an awesome question, and I'm having trouble developing a pat answer for it.

My inclination at present is that it revolves around the purpose of an individual's life. If the purposes of an individual's life are not going to be fulfilled in this mortal sphere, then from the Lord's standpoint there's no reason for not sending that individual on to the next stage of existence--particularly when that individual poses a threat to the purpose of the lives of others.

So, I would venture to say we are at least justified in (if not commanded outright to) saving the lives, at the very least, of individuals to whom the above-stated conditions do not apply.

Well, at least you are willing to admit that I have a valid point.

I completly disagree with your presentation that some lives just aren't fulfilling enough and killing them would be fine. Or if someone interferes with the purpose of others lives it is better to kill them. YIKES!!!

I thought God was no respecter of persons.

D&C 1: 35

35 For I am no respecter of persons, and will that all men shall know that the day speedily cometh; the hour is not yet, but is nigh at hand, when peace shall be taken from the earth, and the devil shall have power over his own dominion.

D&C 38: 16

16 And for your salvation I give unto you a commandment, for I have heard your prayers, and the poor have complained before me, and the rich have I made, and all flesh is mine, and I am no respecter of persons.

Acts 10: 34.

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

[TruthSeekerToo]

YMR-Abraham didn't actually lie-he withheld some truth. He and his wife really are half-siblings.

And saying that breaking a lesser commandment to keep a higher is fine. Saying that God lies or that any lies come from Him is not truth.

So, does everyone believe that "Lying for the Lord" is okay? You can look it up on mormonwiki if you are not sure what that means.

[Just_A_Guy]

Well, at least you are willing to admit that I have a valid point.

I completly disagree with your presentation that some lives just aren't fulfilling enough and killing them would be fine. Or if someone interferes with the purpose of others lives it is better to kill them. YIKES!!!

Please note that I said from the Lord's standpoint. Not from man's.

I thought God was no respecter of persons.

What is that supposed to mean, in this context? That God doesn't make judgment calls about whose lives should be prolonged, and whose should not?

YMR-Abraham didn't actually lie-he withheld some truth. He and his wife really are half-siblings.

Einstein famously said that God does not play dice. Somehow I don't think He plays "Gotcha!", either. The above argument strikes me as a mere technicality: Abraham knowingly and deliberately misled Pharoah.

So, does everyone believe that "Lying for the Lord" is okay? You can look it up on mormonwiki if you are not sure what that means. [/quote

It's not on Mormonwiki.com, and Mormonwiki.org is an anti-Mormon site. That said, I stand by Joseph Smith: Whatever the Lord commands is right. (Just be sure it's really the Lord who's telling you to do it.)

Edited April 24, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[hordak]

Sarah actually was Abraham's half-sister. So, as long as they didn't say "NO we aren't married" they wouldn't be bearing false witness anyway.

Isn't that lying by omission? That's how i got through my teen years. I was actually going to hang out with my friend. As long as i didn't say to my folk "NO we aren't going to be drinking" it wasn't bearing false witness.

[TruthSeekerToo]

Isn't that lying by omission? That's how i got through my teen years. I was actually going to hang out with my friend. As long as i didn't say to my folk "NO we aren't going to be drinking" it wasn't bearing false witness.

Yes. Yes it is. Abraham was probably acting out of fear. Poor Pharoah was very hurt that he was decieved.

What is that supposed to mean, in this context? That God doesn't make judgment calls about whose lives should be prolonged, and whose should not?

My point is that it would appear to me that sometimes commanding the killing of innocent children vs. commanding to lie to save other peoples lives is being a "respecter of persons." If you feel I am misunderstanding this concept please help me see what it really means.

Oooh, and thank for the tip on that site. I couldn't figure out why it was like that. I didn't know there was two!

-----------

I still don't see any scriptural evidence that God is the author of any lies.

[Just_A_Guy]

My point is that it would appear to me that sometimes commanding the killing of innocent children vs. commanding to lie to save other peoples lives is being a "respecter of persons." If you feel I am misunderstanding this concept please help me see what it really means.

All of the scriptures you cite, IMHO, refer to the availability of eternal gospel blessings to all those who will keep God's commandments regardless of their personal situation. God can--and does--give different sets of instructions (and even different temporal blessings) to different sets of people according to their personal circumstances; the Mosaic Law, polygamy, consumption of meats offered to idols, and caffeine consumption being a few examples of this principle in action.

Oooh, and thank for the tip on that site. I couldn't figure out why it was like that. I didn't know there was two!

Neither did I, until today!

I still don't see any scriptural evidence that God is the author of any lies.

I'll defer this argument to others. My point isn't necessarily that God orders us to lie; it's only that it's not necessarily sinful in all circumstances.

[TruthSeekerToo]

So which is the greater show of love towards God? Saving an innocent from death by lying? Or admitting to hiding someone?

Which is the greater commandment?

"Greater love hath no man than this, that he should lay down his life for his friends."

or

"Thou shall not bear false witness."

After taking a class on Judaism and ancient Hebrew literature, one needs to take into context all situations and all sayings.

Lying itself is divided into two kinds.

The evil kind is the one associated with the Devil. This lying hurts. It hurts God, others, and is done for a wrong purpose. When Satan ''beguiled'' Eve it involved an intense, mult-level, suffering.

The other kind of lying, such as Abraham did, is not evil. A greater TRUTH (the opposite of a lie) was upheld

Hi. I've been mulling over this more.

Here is what I wonder. I agree that loving our neighbor as ourselves is crucial.

This is why I see that God does not command killing or genocide. That is the opposite of loving our neighbor.

I just don't believe it can be both ways. The greater truth must remain constant. God is truth and is unchanging.

And could you tell me what the TRUTH was that Abraham was upholding? I'm not being snarky, it just isn't plain to me. Was it the truth of his marriage or the truth of his calling or something I can't think of?

------------------------

Next thought. Those of you who do not believe the devil is the father of all lies. Do you reject those scriptures which say otherwise or interpret them differently? Or were they an error of the writer?

Obviously I don't have a problem with any of those solutions since I don't believe God comands killings. I just would like to hear how you reconcile your beliefs. Thanks.

[Just_A_Guy]

Next thought. Those of you who do not believe the devil is the father of all lies. Do you reject those scriptures which say otherwise or interpret them differently? Or were they an error of the writer?

Obviously I don't have a problem with any of those solutions since I don't believe God comands killings. I just would like to hear how you reconcile your beliefs. Thanks.

One needs to be a little careful about absolute statements as recorded in the scriptures. For example, Jehovah tells the brother of Jared very clearly that never had man seen His body. Yet, we know from the book of Moses that Enoch (who lived before the brother of Jared) also had the privilege of seeing Him; and it's a pretty reasonable supposition that Adam had the same privilege.

There's a pretty good body of work out there--I'll try to find you some links--that support the idea that in the scriptures, "all" does not always necessarily mean all.

[TruthSeekerToo]

JAG-That would be great. I hope you can find it. =)

ETA: Found this reference from the 1828 Disctionary:

This word, not only in popular language, but in the scriptures, often signifies, indefinitely, a large portion or number, or a great part. Thus, all the cattle in Egypt died; all Judea and all the region round about Jordan; all men held John as a prophet; are not to be understood in a literal sense, but as including a large part or very great numbers.

I'm having a hard time seeing the verse rendered: the father of most of the lies. Doesn't have the same ring to it.

Edited April 24, 2009 by TruthSeekerToo

[Just_A_Guy]

No kidding!

I'll need to do more looking, but a simple Google search yields this non-Mormon essay which points to the problems of taking "all" as an absolute in certain New Testament contexts.

Whether this type of over-use of "all" spilled over into the Book of Mormon is, of course, an open question at this point. :)

By the way--a bit more food for thought--the first time Moses came to Pharoah, I believe he only asked for permission to go three days' journey into the wilderness to offer sacrifices? Was he lying, if his intent all along was to lead Israel back to Canaan?

[Moksha]

Hey if they choose to lie, don't go blaming me!

[Maxel]

Yes. Yes it is. Abraham was probably acting out of fear. Poor Pharoah was very hurt that he was decieved.

Two thoughts on this:

-If Abraham was acting out of fear- which is the opposite of faith- then why did he follow the Lord's direct commandment to 'lie' about his marital status to Sariah? In addition, why would the Lord specifically come and command Abraham to take the path that he would have been goaded to follow by fear- what would have been the point, except to alert Abraham to the danger? In this case, is it fair to say that God is a terrorist that inspires fear? Or is it possible- probable, in fact- that initially lying to the Egyptians... was a good thing? Hence the Lord's commandment to do it?

-Why, exactly, was Abraham told to lie to Pharaoh? Therein lies your answer- start at Abraham 2:22-23. Because the idea of the Lord commanding His followers to kill others falls in this same category of direct commandments from the Lord overriding general commandments, I suggest you take a look at the health and makeup of the political structure during the time of those commanded killings: was it a time of war, rebellion, political turmoil? Was someone wielding unrighteous dominion?

Both of these train of thoughts will point you in one direction (of many; the path I'm hinting at): how does the Lord command His servants to act when they are on His errand and need to act within the structure of a society rooted in sinful tradition?

Here is what I wonder. I agree that loving our neighbor as ourselves is crucial.

This is why I see that God does not command killing or genocide. That is the opposite of loving our neighbor.

I just don't believe it can be both ways. The greater truth must remain constant. God is truth and is unchanging.

Alas, the greatest truth is not to love our neighbor as ourselves. In fact, the first and greatest commandment is to love the Lord with all our hearts- that implies that we love the things of God as opposed to the things of man (Matthew 22:37-40)- it is upon this law that we must hang the framework of our understanding, not upon the commandment to love our fellow man- which is the the second law, and like unto the first- yet still under the first in eternal and temporal importance.

And could you tell me what the TRUTH was that Abraham was upholding? I'm not being snarky, it just isn't plain to me. Was it the truth of his marriage or the truth of his calling or something I can't think of?

The answer to this lies in Abraham 2:24- "Let her say unto the Egyptians, she is thy sister, and thy soul shall live". The truths that Abraham was upholding was that he was to be the father of many nations, that the Egyptians were rooted in some sinful traditions that would lead them to kill Abraham to take Sariah, and that he must survive his encounter with them. In fact, there's evidence (from extrapolating the Pearl of Great Price into history) that not only did Abraham survive his encounter with the Egyptians, but that he in fact became a mighty teacher to them. Edited April 25, 2009 by Maxel

[Just_A_Guy]

Moksha, I've seen that picture before, but it gets more awesome every time I see it!

[pam]

Okay I'm going to totally show my ignorance here..but I have no idea who is in that picture that Moksha posted.

[Dr T]

I don't either Pammy