Death without Temple Ordinances

[Luvmikds]

I have a very dear friend who was killed in an accident. He was baptised into the church but never went to the temple. Where is he now? Is he waiting in the Spirit Prison or does he go to Paradise to wait? Just concerned for him.

Luvmikds:(

[bytor2112]

Alma Ch. 40:

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

• • •

14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

[Justice]

Yes, I believe from everything we have been revealed, I have formulated the opinion that the division that happens at death, or whether one waits for the resurrection in Prison or Paradise, is based on whether or not they accepted Jesus Christ, and not whether or not ordinances were performed.

[bytor2112]

Yes, I believe from everything we have been revealed, I have formulated the opinion that the division that happens at death, or whether one waits for the resurrection in Prison or Paradise, is based on whether or not they accepted Jesus Christ, and not whether or not ordinances were performed.

Even baptism?

[mikbone]

If his baptism was sealed by the holy spirit of promise, He's in paradise.

D&C 132:7

[Jim108]

Did he believe in Jesus. Thats the important part. For people who believe in the Cross it is the power and salvation of God and to those who do not it is foolishness. God Bless, Jim

Edited April 29, 2009 by Jim108

[hordak]

Follow up question.

Does the church do temple work for its members?

I mean most of it comes through genealogy and family members. But do they go through the membership records when people pass on ?

[applepansy]

Follow up question.

Does the church do temple work for its members?

I mean most of it comes through genealogy and family members. But do they go through the membership records when people pass on ?

Yes, if the work hasn't been done within 5 years of the death, then that person's name can be done by anyone.

[bytebear]

I do not believe baptism is a requirement for paradise. Only a belief in Jesus Christ. The Bible Dictionary hints that more is required, however.

A Persian word meaning a garden. It is not found in the O.T. In the N.T. it occurs in Luke 23: 43, 2 Cor. 12: 4, and Rev. 2: 7. See also 2 Ne. 9: 13; Alma 40: 12, 14; 4 Ne. 1: 14; Moro. 10: 34; D&C 77: 2, 5; cf. A of F 10. Paradise is that part of the spirit world in which the righteous spirits who have departed from this life await the resurrection of the body. It is a condition of happiness and peace. However, the scriptures are not always consistent in the use of the word, especially in the Bible. For example, when Jesus purportedly said to the thief on the cross, “To day shalt thou be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23: 43), the Bible rendering is incorrect. The statement would more accurately read, “Today shalt thou be with me in the world of spirits” since the thief was not ready for paradise (see HC 5: 424-25). Possibly 2 Cor. 12: 4 should also not use paradise in the sense of meaning the spirit world, as much as meaning the celestial kingdom. The “paradisiacal glory” of A of F 10 refers to the glorified millennial state of the earth rather than the spirit world.

Does anyone have HC 5: 424-25?

[Justice]

Even baptism?

Yes, that's my understanding.

You have to remember that those places are just temporary holding places. Both places are awaiting ordinances to be performed. Christ bridged the gap between Prison and Paradise between His death and resurrection. He organized the missionary effort to preach the Gospel to those who are in Prison. Now, since ordinances cannot be performed there, it doesn't make any sense to make that a condition on when someone can mose from Prison to Paradise (at least not to me).

I like that Bible Dictionary quote above. I have read that many, many times. Yet, I still don't think ordinances are required, otherwise those who sufficiently accept Christ would have to still suffer in Prison.

Anyone have any scriptures or quotes that agree with or refute this? I'd love to see them.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Justice

[Traveler]

Did he believe in Jesus. Thats the important part. For people who believe in the Cross it is the power and salvation of God and to those who do not it is foolishness. God Bless, Jim

It would seem that there is a little more investment required than believeing in Jesus by name. (See Matt 7:22) Believing that attending Church makes someone a Christian is as silly as believing that sleeping in a garage will make someone a Ford.

Sometimes I smile how many interpert scripture. For example, in ancient times to confess Christ meant certain death by public execution. Many think it means the same today, doing so at a church while the congregation cheers.

The Traveler

[Justice]

I tried to discuss this with a friend just last week.

They kept telling me that love is the answer. They kept quoting "God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son..." to me.

My comment was, the scriptuire does not stop at love. If it ended at God's love, "God so loved the world," then it would be empty and vain. God loved so He did; God loved so He gave.

We must do the same.

Simply believing is the same as simply loving. Saying, "be ye warmed and filled," yet not acting on this love and getting up and doing is meaningless, and Christ will say, "I never knew you."

It's all about Charity. It's a shame if you use the NIV Bible because you will never see this truth.

It's not love... It's charity.

It's not believe... it's faith.

[Jim108]

It would seem that there is a little more investment required than believeing in Jesus by name. (See Matt 7:22) Believing that attending Church makes someone a Christian is as silly as believing that sleeping in a garage will make someone a Ford.

Sometimes I smile how many interpert scripture. For example, in ancient times to confess Christ meant certain death by public execution. Many think it means the same today, doing so at a church while the congregation cheers.

The Traveler

Jesus is all you need. You can be sure of that.

[bytebear]

I looked up HC 5: 424-25, the referrence given in the Bible Dictionary. Here is what it says:

I will say something about the spirits in prison. There has been much said by modern divines about the words of Jesus (when on the cross) to the thief, saying, "This day shalt thou be with me in paradise." King James' translators make it out to say paradise. But what is paradise? It is a modern word it does not answer at all to the original word that Jesus made use of. Find the original of the word paradise. You may as easily find a needle in a haymow. Here is a chance for battle, ye learned men. There is nothing in the original word in Greek froze which this was taken that signifies paradise; but it was--This day thou shalt be with me in the world of spirits' then I will teach you all about it and answer your inquiries. And Peter says he went and preached to the world of spirits (spirits in prison, I Peter, 3rd chap., 19th verse), so that they who would receive it could have it answered by proxy by those who live on the earth, etc.

The doctrine of baptism for the dead is clearly shown in the New Testament; and if the doctrine is not good, then throw the New Testament away; but if it is the word of God, then let the doctrine be acknowledged; and it was the reason why Jesus said unto the Jews, "How oft would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"--that they might attend to the ordinances of baptism for the dead as well as other ordinances of the priesthood, and receive revelations from heaven, and be perfected in the things of the kingdom of God--but they would not. This was the case on the day of Pentecost: those blessings were poured out on the disciples on that occasion. God ordained that He would save the dead, and would do it by gathering His people together.

It always has been when a man was sent of God with the priesthood and he began to preach the fullness of the gospel, that he was thrust out by his friends, who are ready to butcher him if he teach things which they imagine to be wrong; and Jesus was crucified upon this principle.

The Purpose of the Gathering of Israel. A Discourse By The Prophet Joseph Smith.

Edited April 29, 2009 by bytebear

[Justice]

Jim, I don't disagree with what you say. How can anyone argue?

My concern is not directed at you specifically, but to many people I know who I have heard make similar comments. They believe all they have to do is "accept Jesus in their heart" one time and they are saved. There is nothing else they need to do. When, according to the Bible and Jesus' word, nothing could be farther from the truth.

I think wording it the way you do is incomplete and gives people the wrong idea of what it means to be a follower of Christ. This is why we try to explain, and why it seems like we disagree with you. We KNOW Jesus is the way. We know there is no other way. But, we also know that we have to do and be more than those who simply profess and believe. We have to be doers of the word, not hearers only. We have to be a Christian in everything we do throughout the week, not just on Sunday. It goes beyond accepting Him in your heart one day. It's a lifelong committment; it's a conversion; it's a new birth to a new way of life. And, all this because of the grace and mercy of Christ, and the Holy Ghost which He bestows on all who make and keep covenants.

So, if it seems like we diagree, it's a misunderstanding. All we're saying is there is more to claiming you believe in Christ than simply saying it. Christ never said believing didn't require anything but believing inside. No, He said time and time again that it's what we do that makes us believers.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Justice

[Jim108]

Jim, I don't disagree with what you say. How can anyone argue?

My concern is not directed at you specifically, but to many people I know who I have heard make similar comments. They believe all they have to do is "accept Jesus in their heart" one time and they are saved. There is nothing else they need to do. When, according to the Bible and Jesus' word, nothing could be farther from the truth.

I think wording it the way you do is incomplete and gives people the wrong idea of what it means to be a follower of Christ. This is why we try to explain, and why it seems like we disagree with you. We KNOW Jesus is the way. We know there is no other way. But, we also know that we have to do and be more than those who simply profess and believe. We have to be doers of the word, not hearers only. We have to be a Christian in everything we do throughout the week, not just on Sunday. It goes beyond accepting Him in your heart one day. It's a lifelong committment; it's a conversion; it's a new birth to a new way of life. And, all this because of the grace and mercy of Christ, and the Holy Ghost which He bestows on all who make and keep covenants.

So, if it seems like we diagree, it's a misunderstanding. All we're saying is there is more to claiming you believe in Christ than simply saying it. Christ never said believing didn't require anything but believing inside. No, He said time and time again that it's what we do that makes us believers.

Thanks for your kind words. I know that in my church. Yes, I actually go to church. We are very much like your church in that we have live and dead members. Just because your go to church does not save you and just because one time in your life you say you believe in Jesus does not make one saved.(I think, I will let God judge that) You must grow in your faith. You must surrender to Jesus. I would say that most religious christians have not done this. They are dead in their faith. When you surrender you tune into the spirit and do Gods will. You no longer are interested in Earthly things. Wealth and possession are of little meaning and the light of God shines through you to do Gods will. I am not sure how I crossed the line to surrendering to Jesus. It just happened one day and I feel very lucky to have found Him. I know that in your church, you also have live and dead members. Some of the posts here are from LDS members who thought they saw the light early in life only to have really found it years later. You see, we are the same, we love Jesus and without Him we are lost. I agree with you, to surrender to Jesus is a very difficult thing for some of us to do. I think pride and some other things get in the way. My mother does not see the light (prayers are welcome) and I am at a lost to find a way to open her eyes. I have learned this in the last month. I don't care about religion. If religion makes you happy then go for it. The LDS (and other religions) are a good place to be if it makes you happy, just make sure you love Jesus with all your heart and soul and give the glory to God always. Do Gods will. This is where I stand and I think it close to what you believe.

[skippy740]

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Have You Been Saved?

[Justice]

Alma 7:

14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.

Mosiah 27:

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;

But, I love Jacob and Nephi:

2 Nephi 2:

8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.

So many truths in that verse alone.

2 Nephi 10:

24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

2 Nephi 25:

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

If only some would open their hearts to God's words in the Book of Mormon... sometimes having a second witness is enough for some, where only one can't quite do it. So many doctrinal issues and questions are quickly resolved by the plain-speaking Book of Mormon prophets.

[Jim108]

Alma 7:

14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.

Mosiah 27:

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;

But, I love Jacob and Nephi:

2 Nephi 2:

8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.

So many truths in that verse alone.

2 Nephi 10:

24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

2 Nephi 25:

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

If only some would open their hearts to God's words in the Book of Mormon... sometimes having a second witness is enough for some, where only one can't quite do it. So many doctrinal issues and questions are quickly resolved by the plain-speaking Book of Mormon prophets.

You know what, I don't care what words bring you to Jesus as long as it brings you to Jesus. Good Post

[skippy740]

Jim,

Perhaps you are simply not interested in learning more about LDS theology, but did you click on the link in my post?

I think it can help you understand us a little better and then we can begin to communicate much better on the forum.

[Hemidakota]

I have a very dear friend who was killed in an accident. He was baptised into the church but never went to the temple. Where is he now? Is he waiting in the Spirit Prison or does he go to Paradise to wait? Just concerned for him.

Luvmikds:(

Was your question answered?

[Traveler]

Jesus is all you need. You can be sure of that.

I find your statement interesting - The problem is not in getting Jesus' assistance and love. His effort does not change from person to person. The problem is getting people invested in Jesus' assistance and love of others on a level that Jesus is invested (being one with G-d). And the truth is that such an investment is not about "you need" or what any "you" can get out of it or a "your" salvation.

It is not about Jesus - the scriptures are quite direct - it is all about what is in our heart and what we bring to the table. If it was all about Jesus then everyone is saved and there is no reason to even discuss such things among ourselves. If someone is not willing to "buy" into the program and invest in Jesus with ALL their heart, might, mind and strength (according to scripture) then all that Jesus has done will is not enough for them.

The Traveler

[Jim108]

I find your statement interesting - The problem is not in getting Jesus' assistance and love. His effort does not change from person to person. The problem is getting people invested in Jesus' assistance and love of others on a level that Jesus is invested (being one with G-d). And the truth is that such an investment is not about "you need" or what any "you" can get out of it or a "your" salvation.

It is not about Jesus - the scriptures are quite direct - it is all about what is in our heart and what we bring to the table. If it was all about Jesus then everyone is saved and there is no reason to even discuss such things among ourselves. If someone is not willing to "buy" into the program and invest in Jesus with ALL their heart, might, mind and strength (according to scripture) then all that Jesus has done will is not enough for them.

The Traveler

This is a good post. Yes, from your point of view I can not argue. When I say it's all about Jesus I mean the work and believing does come from the individual. I am glad you brought this up. Good call.

[Jim108]

Jim,

Perhaps you are simply not interested in learning more about LDS theology, but did you click on the link in my post?

I think it can help you understand us a little better and then we can begin to communicate much better on the forum.

Skippy, thanks for the link. I have read it. There is a lot to study in this one statement and before I comment on it I need to look at it and the references it makes. I guess this statement you posted sums it up best from the LDS view and it is what I was looking for. Thanks again, Jim

[Luvmikds]

All of you posts have been very helpful! He did, to the best of my knowledge have a testimony of Christ. I'm sure he is in a state of rest and happiness and look forward to the day I can see him again.

Luvmikds