Difference between Telestial and Terrestrial

[Pilgrim2]

You're hung up on being exact with those words, Pilgrim.

I went to a baseball game the other day. I was there. You were not. My name was on the attendance list, yours was not.

Oh, but wait, some were in the front row seats, some were near the dugout, some were in the nose-bleed section, some were sitting behind the outfiled, some were standing along the fence, and some actually got to go in the locker room and meet the players.

So, although there is a difference as black and white as can be that some were at the game and some were not, that doesn't mean the ones that were at the game all enjoyed equal seating, or an equal experience.

Open your mind and get past your literal black and white interpretation. You have to understand all the scriptures together. You can't write off the ones that speak of the grays because they don't fit into your black and white.

- - - - - - - -

Hi...thanks for the interesting comments. I like the baseball analogy if we carry it one step further and allow for enough seating that everyone that wants can be right up CLOSE... as that parallels to the access to the throne of God in the new heaven in earth, for all that get there. The problem is that in your new revelations... (to continue the analogy) it is 3 different ball games....3 worlds with restrictions on going to the other two. This is not a ball game... it is ETERNITY. Don't downplay that! I, for one, am not going to miss the right ball game because of ignoring some "inexact" words.

I certainly agree with you that we need to take ALL that the scriptures say... but if I do that and include the LDS writings... I'm left with unresolved contradictions....which I have spelled out earlier in this thread. I do not find that to be the case with the picture given for the afterlife in the Bible... so I will stick with learning ALL the Bible says about it.

It may be that you feel Christians are teaching a share-and-share alike heaven. We don't. We will all get varying rewards... it is just that they do not involve the DESTINATION. Even in hell... I'd say the purpose of the Great White Throne judgment is to look at the works and assign degrees of punishment...as other scriptures teach that. But the Bible consistently teaches TWO basic destinations.

Pilgrim2

[Justice]

Well, the "being saved" would imply they are in heaven, or God's Kingdom. This is the difference I wanted to point out. There are 2 things at play. One is being invited to the game in the first place, or having your name in the book of life. That grants you entrace, or escape from the lake of fire. That answers the 2 places you speak of.

The quality of your seating, or the glory you enjoy is decided differently, based on different criteria. It's one game; one Kingdom, with many seats or mansions. This allows both types of scripture to be true, not just one or the other.

[aj4u]

As President Young stated [paraphrasing]; there are many kingdoms below us as there are many kingdoms above us...

But for our salvation there is but three to be concern with.

According to the Bible there are only two places to be concerned with as Paul stated in 2 Cor. 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. We are either going to spend eternity with the Lord or be cast into outter darkness. In other words, It is either heaven, the joy of the Lord, the kingdom of God, the heavenly city with many manisons or hell, fire and brimstone, Christless eternity, a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth.

A place for the righteous and a place for the wicked. There may be degrees of suffering in hell forever and there will be rewards in heaven. Some will have more rewards than others, but we either go to one of two places according to Scriptures in the Holy Bible heaven or hell.

[aj4u]

Well, the "being saved" would imply they are in heaven, or God's Kingdom. This is the difference I wanted to point out. There are 2 things at play. One is being invited to the game in the first place, or having your name in the book of life. That grants you entrace, or escape from the lake of fire. That answers the 2 places you speak of.

The quality of your seating, or the glory you enjoy is decided differently, based on different criteria. It's one game; one Kingdom, with many seats or mansions. This allows both types of scripture to be true, not just one or the other.

Our seating arrangement shouldn't be what we concern ourselves with, but we should rejoice that our names are written in heaven. Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

If our names are not written in heaven, we will spend an eternity without the Lord. Satan is a liar and the father of lies. He is looking to destroy steal and kill. If he can get people thinking that they have to earn God's gift of eternal life instead of simply accept it as a child, we will be standing before the Lord speechless and ashamed to find our names were never written down in the Lamb's book of life.

[Justice]

If he can get people thinking that they have to earn God's gift of eternal life instead of simply accept it as a child, we will be standing before the Lord speechless and ashamed to find our names were never written down in the Lamb's book of life.

I accept.

OK, time to go eat, drink, and be merry, and I'll see you in heaven.

Let's not beat that dead horse anymore, please.

[Pilgrim2]

Well, the "being saved" would imply they are in heaven, or God's Kingdom. This is the difference I wanted to point out. There are 2 things at play. One is being invited to the game in the first place, or having your name in the book of life. That grants you entrace, or escape from the lake of fire. That answers the 2 places you speak of.

The quality of your seating, or the glory you enjoy is decided differently, based on different criteria. It's one game; one Kingdom, with many seats or mansions. This allows both types of scripture to be true, not just one or the other.

- - - - - -

It does not allow both scriptures to be true. Those in telestial glory will NOT have access to the upper levels or the throne of God according to D&C 76:112....and I think you knew that. The Bible says all in the new heaven/earth WILL have access to the throne of God. You can't have it both ways.

D&C 88:21,38 suggest those in terrestrial glory will not be in celestial glory... D&C 88:2 says it is those who are sanctified who inherit the celestial "world"...and verse 21 says those who are NOT sanctified must inherit another kingdom. D&C 88:17-19 also says the EARTH itself will be sanctified and have a celestial glory and be crowned with the glory/presence of GOD THE FATHER. (I understood terrestrial glory did not include that...they are only visited by the Son) Rev. 21 says it is a new heaven and EARTH that are open and together. If the new EARTH is "celestial glory" .... where are the Terrestrial glory people going to be? And where are the telestial glory people going to be? Either ALL the "glories" have access to the throne as the Bible indicates in Rev. 21:24-27, or they are all separated... but it is not BOTH!

This is another issue... God has declared Christ's name to be the name above all names...and every knee to bow to HIM...so I think you've got the glories backwards... Christ's should be celestial and God's terrestrial. OK... that was more tongue-in-cheek than anything...but I do feel the distinguishing of them is VERY artificial. To be in Christ's presence is to be in God's presence, and vice versa. "He that hath seen me hath seen the father." They are so close that it speaks of both of them on one throne... compare Rev. 22:3, 4:6,9, 5:6,13, 7:10,17 Interesting, isn't it?

Pilgrim 2

[aj4u]

I accept.

OK, time to go eat, drink, and be merry, and I'll see you in heaven.

Let's not beat that dead horse anymore, please.

Cool

[Justice]

The new earth will be the residence of those who inherit Celestial Glory. So, it is true. But, the other places of His Kingdom are still His Kingdom, even if they are not in the same location. That is what I meant by different seating.

Here is a quote from Elder Christofferson:

Other sacred ordinances are performed in temples built for that very purpose. If we are faithful to the covenants made there, we become inheritors not only of the celestial kingdom but of exaltation, the highest glory within the heavenly kingdom, and we obtain all the divine possibilities God can give (see D&C 132:20).

This indicates the principle I'm speaking of. There are different glories even within each Kingdom.

The place we are saved from is the Lake of Fire, or Outer Darkness. The place we are saved to is the Kingdom of God, or Kingdom of Heaven. You will be placed in a state, according to your works on earth, where you can abide the laws of that kingdom. If you did not abide a Celestial Law on earth then you cannot abide Celestial Glory.

So, 2 places, Outer Darkness and the Kingdom of Heaven. However, within the Kingdom of Heaven are many mansions or degrees of glory. I really do think you're trying to out-think yourself. It doesn't seem to be all that complicated. You're trying to force on God that He has to give everyone in His Kingdom an equal reward or equal glory. He never said He would. We can't hold Him to something He never said.

[aj4u]

The new earth will be the residence of those who inherit Celestial Glory. So, it is true. But, the other places of His Kingdom are still His Kingdom, even if they are not in the same location. That is what I meant by different seating.

Here is a quote from Elder Christofferson:

Other sacred ordinances are performed in temples built for that very purpose. If we are faithful to the covenants made there, we become inheritors not only of the celestial kingdom but of exaltation, the highest glory within the heavenly kingdom, and we obtain all the divine possibilities God can give (see D&C 132:20).

This indicates the principle I'm speaking of. There are different glories even within each Kingdom.

The place we are saved from is the Lake of Fire, or Outer Darkness. The place we are saved to is the Kingdom of God, or Kingdom of Heaven. You will be placed in a state, according to your works on earth, where you can abide the laws of that kingdom. If you did not abide a Celestial Law on earth then you cannot abide Celestial Glory.

So, 2 places, Outer Darkness and the Kingdom of Heaven. However, within the Kingdom of Heaven are many mansions or degrees of glory. I really do think you're trying to out-think yourself. It doesn't seem to be all that complicated. You're trying to force on God that He has to give everyone in His Kingdom an equal reward or equal glory. He never said He would. We can't hold Him to something He never said.

Nor can He be held to hold what we believe He said if He really didn't say it. Moreover, God is also not subject to our inferences of the Scriptures.

[Justice]

Nor can He be held to hold what we believe He said if He really didn't say it.

You simply repeated what I said only used more words.

Moreover, God is also not subject to our inferences of the Scriptures.

This is argumentative and presents no discussion. You are simply accusing me of misinterpreting scripture. I think you made that point about 50 times now on this forum.

aj4u, I really appreciate what you're trying to do. You are trying to share with me what you believe to be true. But, we can't have a real discussion if you reject modern scripture and prophets. The Book of Mormon is the center of my belief system. I have read it; I have studied it over the course of many decades; I have prayed about it intently, desiring to know if it is true. I know it's true. Nothing you will ever do or say will dim my testimony of it.

You pick it up one day with the purpose of finding fault, having no hope or faith that it might be true. You make it to Alma or farther the very next day... skimming it to find fault. You never really opened your heart to it, and it seems you never will.

That's OK, we all have our agency. But...

I'm afraid this makes having a worthwhile discussion about Christ, or what He offers us, impossible, or at the very least, problematic for you because you don't recognize my sources.

[the Ogre]

Nor can He be held to hold what we believe . . .

I think you need to look a little further into the covenant relationships men have with G-d. If we live according to the covenants we have made with H-m, then H- will abide by the same covenants. However, the biblical covenants have nothing to do with this thread. You would be more interested in those, for example the Abrahamic covenants that we are still required to abide by. What about the Davidic covenants? We are required to live by those as well.

The biggest problem is that neither of those have anything to do with this thread.

. . . God is also not subject to our inferences of the Scriptures.

You are absolutely right, we are held to the word of G-d. We are required to follow the scriptures as H- interprets them. Not the other way around. It is surprising to hear you make such a clear argument for Modern Revelation. [irony]I am glad you are finally beginning to come around.[/irony]

[Justice]

While listening to the Sunday School lesson today, which was on the 3 degrees of glory and D&C 76, I realized the following. I will state what I realized without quoting the scriptures that made me realize this:

The reward or kingdom we receive is depentant on what level we "believed in Christ," or to what level we kept His commandments, or, as Ogre has stated so clearly, to what level we honor and keep the covenants we have made with God.

Celestial: Those who receive the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and are valiant in their testimony of Him.

Terrestrial: Those who receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ but are not valiant in their testimony of Him.

Telestial: Those who do not receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ

Outer Darkness: Those who received the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and later reject Him and never repent.

It's all in D&C 76.

The line is drawn between Outer Darkness and the Telestial Kingdom for those who are in God's Kingdom.

It makes no sense to me how someone who served Christ with all his might, mind, and strength (like Nephi) would receive the same reward as one who only served Christ part time.

It makes no sense how someone who served Christ part time would receive the same reward as one who never served Him.

Some will quote the parable where people came throughout all hours of the day to serve in the vineyard and received the same reward. But, remember, it is not the level to which they worked that is being taught here, but at what age they began to serve Christ. The point is that as long as you show up and serve Christ with all your heart, might, mind, and strength, the reward is yours.

To understand about the different levels of work and what a reward might be for different efforts, then you need to read the parable of the talents. The ones that produced more fruit were rewarded more.

[the Ogre]

. . . Those who receive the fullness . . .

I hate to quibble, but I think switching "receive" with "accept" might work a tad better.

PS: anyone who quotes that parable is missing the intent of the S-vior and to whom he was speaking.

[Moksha]

Celestial: Those who receive the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and are valiant in their testimony of Him.

So would this include Mother Teresa? Would she need to become one of the Celestial Wives?

[the Ogre]

So would this include Mother Teresa? Would she need to become one of the Celestial Wives?

Oi . . . sometimes devil's advocacy can go too far (tho, that was funny).

[aj4u]

this is really something. Both Ogre and Justice are making different inferences from what I wrote. Justice says my statement is arguementative and Ogre says it is absoultely correct. Justice says we cannot have a constructive discussion about Christ Jesus. I say we can, if we can find out who He Jesus really is. I can receive modern day truth about Scripture as long as it doesn't clash with Scripture. I was told by Mormons that LDS doctrine doesn't clash with Scripture then I am told by others it may or it does at times. Are there any absolutes in what you believe in? I am really am confused. I am trying to obey Scripture that says don't believe very spirit but try them. When i try them you judge me for it telling me that I arguementative. I am surprised that you wouldn't like answers to the questions I have just for yourself.

[Justice]

I'm going to be as clear as I can be so I'm not misunderstood.

My core beliefs are found in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon spells out some of the doctrines that are misunderstood in the Bible.

aj4u, the Book of Mormon does not clash with the Bible, but it DOES clash with your interpretation of the Bible. As long as you are unwilling to even suppose the Book of Mormon might be from God then the barrier of interpreting the Bible remians.

I don't know how much more clear I can be. The Book of Mormon says that some of your interpretations of the Bible are wrong. Either you accept the Book of Mormon interpretation or you accept your interpretation. I was asking you to at least consider what the Book of Mormon has to say. All you did was look for things that went against your interpretion and criticized what I believe.

As I said before, I know the Book of Mormon is true, and fortunately for me, we are on an LDS forum. :)

Edited May 25, 2009 by Justice

[Justice]

Sometimes I wonder if you're even in the same conversation. I'm not being hateful or disrespectful by saying this. I really do wonder if you get topics crossed or if you are considering too many things at once. Your comments made me go back and look at what Ogre wrote, and I really don't think you get the intent of his comments.

[aj4u]

I'm going to be as clear as I can be so I'm not misunderstood.

My core beliefs are found in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon spells out some of the doctrines that are misunderstood in the Bible.:)

I have understood that and still understand it.

aj4u, the Book of Mormon does not clash with the Bible, but it DOES clash with your interpretation of the Bible. As long as you are unwilling to even suppose the Book of Mormon might be from God then the barrier of interpreting the Bible remians.:)

the difference between us is I use the Bible to interpret LDS doctrine not just the book of Mormon. But you use LDS doctrine to interpret the Bible. The clashing I showed is not a matter of my interpretation. The Bible is self explanatory in many areas that have no need of interpretation.

I don't know how much more clear I can be. The Book of Mormon says that some of your interpretations of the Bible are wrong. Either you accept the Book of Mormon interpretation or you accept your interpretation. I was asking you to at least consider what the Book of Mormon has to say. All you did was look for things that went against your interpretion and criticized what I believe.:)

You have been very clear about you stance, but you have been ambiguious as well. For example, with our discussion on faith and works. You said you accept what I say and let's not beat a dead horse. Does that mean you accept what I said is true or you're just amusing me?

As I said before, I know the Book of Mormon is true, and fortunately for me, we are on an LDS forum. :)

I understand it is an LDS forum, but you should be able to tell me how you don't see that Is. 43: 10 doesn't clash with "As man is, God once was; as god is, man may become" "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD,

"and my servant whom I have chosen,

so that you may know and believe me

and understand that I am he.

Before me no god was formed,

nor will there be one after me.

There is nothing to interpret from the Bible in this; it is explicitly stated by God himself. Please don't use my interpretation as an excuse to disregard my observation of what is clearly stated. I would like to understand why this doesn't concern you. Maybe you didn't realize or know about this verse in the Bible, but now that you do, what sayest thou?

Edited May 25, 2009 by aj4u

[the Ogre]

this is really something. Both Ogre and Justice are making different inferences from what I wrote. Justice says my statement is arguementative and Ogre says it is absoultely correct. Justice says we cannot have a constructive discussion about Christ Jesus. I say we can, if we can find out who He Jesus really is. I can receive modern day truth about Scripture as long as it doesn't clash with Scripture. I was told by Mormons that LDS doctrine doesn't clash with Scripture then I am told by others it may or it does at times. Are there any absolutes in what you believe in? I am really am confused. I am trying to obey Scripture that says don't believe very spirit but try them. When i try them you judge me for it telling me that I arguementative. I am surprised that you wouldn't like answers to the questions I have just for yourself.

I am a bit concerned here. AJ, I think this thread is going to be closed for the same reason the other was. The OP was about the Telestial and the Terrestrial Kingdoms, if you are going another direction then you are highjacking the thread. That would be one of the methodologies that perfectly describes your type of postings. If you do not, I believe this thread will be closed instead of discussing quite an interesting and informative subject.

[Justice]

The Bible is self explanatory in many areas that have no need of interpretation.

Tell this to the millions of other Christians who claim to believe in just the Bible but interpret it differently. If you talk to them, they will tell you that you are wrong and it really doesn't mean what you say it does. They can't even agree on who God is, how the earth was created, or exactly what the atonement offers. So, how do you expect to solve this by going to just the Bible? (rhetorical)

but you have been ambiguious as well.

I have only been ambiguous in your mind because the Book of Mormon teaches a different interpretation of the Bible than yours. Yes, that would be ambiguous in your mind, but not in mine.

Does that mean you accept what I said is true or you're just amusing me?

I was not trying to amuse you. I tried to show you a great falsehood about the way you interpret that topic, one that it guess you missed.

"As man is, God once was; as god is, man may become"

One last time, show me in the Book of Mormon where it says that?

All I asked you to do was to read the Book of Mormon and open your mind to it. You did not do it. Instead, you visited an anit-Mormon site and found scriptures and quotes from Mormons that disagree with your interpretation of the Bible.

You did not do what I asked. You failed to open your mind and hope that the Book of Momron is more of God's word. Your only reason to even quote it at all was to find fault.

Because of this, we cannot have a conversation about Christ or His teachings. All you want to do is talk about Bible interpretations. That doesn't work with LDS theology because we have more scripture that aids our understanding of the Bible.

So, it is your critical attitude that prevents a meaningful discussion.

This is the last time I'm going to comment on this topic. I hope that you don't jump in every thread and change the topic to what you want to discuss. If you want to discuss something then open a new thread. But, keep in mind, as long as your mind is closed to the possibility of new scripture, your discussions here will be fruitless.

There are plenty of other web sites you can go to where you can be critical of the Book of Momron and LDS theology and they will egg you on and whoop and holler for you while you do it. It's not going to happen here... not by me.

I really think we've been patient.

[Justice]

I hate to quibble, but I think switching "receive" with "accept" might work a tad better.

I've been pondering your comment here, Ogre. Mainly to figure out why I used receive and not accept. The only thing I can come up with is I thought I remembered reading a scripture that used receive, and wanted to not change the wording. However, I have been unable to find it.

Having said that, I did mean accept when I said receive, although I see receive can mean other things.

Accept would be a better choice.

[aj4u]

Tell this to the millions of other Christians who claim to believe in just the Bible but interpret it differently. If you talk to them, they will tell you that you are wrong and it really doesn't mean what you say it does. They can't even agree on who God is, how the earth was created, or exactly what the atonement offers. So, how do you expect to solve this by going to just the Bible? (rhetorical)

I have only been ambiguous in your mind because the Book of Mormon teaches a different interpretation of the Bible than yours. Yes, that would be ambiguous in your mind, but not in mine.

I was not trying to amuse you. I tried to show you a great falsehood about the way you interpret that topic, one that it guess you missed.

One last time, show me in the Book of Mormon where it says that?

All I asked you to do was to read the Book of Mormon and open your mind to it. You did not do it. Instead, you visited an anit-Mormon site and found scriptures and quotes from Mormons that disagree with your interpretation of the Bible.

You did not do what I asked. You failed to open your mind and hope that the Book of Momron is more of God's word. Your only reason to even quote it at all was to find fault.

Because of this, we cannot have a conversation about Christ or His teachings. All you want to do is talk about Bible interpretations. That doesn't work with LDS theology because we have more scripture that aids our understanding of the Bible.

So, it is your critical attitude that prevents a meaningful discussion.

This is the last time I'm going to comment on this topic. I hope that you don't jump in every thread and change the topic to what you want to discuss. If you want to discuss something then open a new thread. But, keep in mind, as long as your mind is closed to the possibility of new scripture, your discussions here will be fruitless.

There are plenty of other web sites you can go to where you can be critical of the Book of Momron and LDS theology and they will egg you on and whoop and holler for you while you do it. It's not going to happen here... not by me.

I really think we've been patient.

Let me stop posting on this thread. If you think it will close and hijacking is going on, Maybe you can PM and tell me where I said it said that in the book of Mormon God was a man and we can be a God. I can prove, however, it is LDS doctrine so I don't know why the attempted denial on your part. I am done of this thread, but as usual my questions haven't been even slightly answered.

[john doe]

Hey AJ, you can start a new thread where your concerns will be answered.

[aj4u]

Hey AJ, you can start a new thread where your concerns will be answered.

This is the best thing I have heard. Can you teach me how to start a new thread? In the mean time I'll be looking. Thanks so much for your help.

:)