Sun or Son ?????

[martybess]

I need help finding a scripture. Somewhere in the Bible I think it uses the word son instead of sun. Of it might be the other way around.

Brother Bob Norman showed it to me. He teaches institute at the UofU. Anyone know what scripture I'm referring too??????

Thanks,

Marty

[pam]

No idea here. Would you be able to contact him if he still teaches there to ask it of him? Just a thought.

[bytor2112]

What is the context?

[Hemidakota]

I need help finding a scripture. Somewhere in the Bible I think it uses the word son instead of sun. Of it might be the other way around.

Brother Bob Norman showed it to me. He teaches institute at the UofU. Anyone know what scripture I'm referring too??????

Thanks,

Marty

Since there is 500 instances within the scriptures, could you narrowed it down to which portion of the scriptures did Bob mention?

I can suspect it maybe the writings within the Book of Ecclesiastes, where sun should at times be replace with Son.

[Just_A_Guy]

Malachi 4:2 ("Sun"), compare 2 Nephi 25:2 ("Son").

Late edit: Yikes! That should be 3 Nephi, not 2 Nephi.

Edited May 11, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[Hemidakota]

Even the JST did not change the spelling. :)

[Hemidakota]

You may what add some further light concerning the usage of Malachi when Moroni quoted the three verses in Malachi and explained them, it would not be out of the way for him to quote Mal. 3:4, to the effect that "then shall the offering of Judea and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old."

In Mal. 4, Malachi made it plain, as doubtless Moroni explained, that the day would come that should burn as an oven and all who do wickedly should be stubble-speaking after the manner of the Lord. Here again, Moroni would naturally give words of warning relative to the impending judgments of God in the then near future. As the Prophet Joseph Smith states, Moroni quoted Malachi 4:5—6 somewhat differently than as found in our present Bible.

Behold, he will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LordÂ…

…And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers. If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming. (Joseph Smith—History 1:38—39)

The question is whether the original translation was changed or lost from one language to the next.

[Justice]

Even the JST did not change the spelling. :)

He did not finish his translation. We cannot assume it is complete.

[martybess]

Malachi 4:2 ("Sun"), compare 2 Nephi 25:2 ("Son").

Yes I think this is the one....... Thanks.

It's interesting how the 2 are really one in the same. Look to the east, see the Sun ie. (Son). He even powers the sun really. It's a real good symbol or Christ, his never ending reliability, always comes up every morning. His never ending power, light ie (knowledge). His warmth, his wrath, his healing, he's the life giver, and so on.

-Marty

Edited May 8, 2009 by martybess

[Hemidakota]

He did not finish his translation. We cannot assume it is complete.

It was...that was my point. It was left to the original writers intent. Though, I do misspell and have improper grammar usage, it still doesn't distract from the original writers. Let you know, he was done with the portion of Old Testament when it came to Malachi's writings.

[Jamie123]

Just been doing a bit of surfing: the Greek word for "son", huios, is quite similar to helios ("sun"). Coincidence?

[Just_A_Guy]

I think so. Malachi was originally written in Hebrew, not Greek. The hebrew text uses the term "shemesh", which pretty unequivocally denotes "sun" and not "son".

Edited May 11, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[martybess]

I think so. Malachi was originally written in Hebrew, not Greek. The hebrew text uses the term "shemesh", which pretty unequivocally denotes "sun" and not "son".

So what are you saying??? The original writer meant Sun or Son in Malachi???

[Just_A_Guy]

I don't know what the original writer meant. But if he did mean "son", the word "sun" is not there because of a mistranslation of a Greek word.

My personal view is that Malachi did mean "sun", and Christ is just giving us a different way of looking at the prophecy. But that's just me.

[Justice]

Yes, remember they did not have printing presses or xerox copiers. All copies were by hand, and they were made by men who were supposed to be inspired, called Scribes.

I'd like to see Hebrew for sun and Son next to each other.

There are a lot of possible explanations, but one thing we do know is the writer meant Son.

[Just_A_Guy]

Yes, remember they did not have printing presses or xerox copiers. All copies were by hand, and they were made by men who were supposed to be inspired, called Scribes.

I'd like to see Hebrew for sun and Son next to each other.

There are a lot of possible explanations, but one thing we do know is the writer meant Son.

Malachi 3:17: ". . . and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him."

The word used for Son here is ben. As noted earlier, "Sun" in Malachi 4:2 is expressed as "shemesh". No idea how either word looks in Hebrew.

[Vort]

Yes I think this is the one....... Thanks.

It's interesting how the 2 are really one in the same. Look to the east, see the Sun ie. (Son). He even powers the sun really. It's a real good symbol or Christ, his never ending reliability, always comes up every morning. His never ending power, light ie (knowledge). His warmth, his wrath, his healing, he's the life giver, and so on.

-Marty

I suspect it's much simpler than this. My understanding is that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, but actually wrote none of it. At all times, he had a scribe (mostly Oliver Cowdery) to take dictation on his words. I suspect the scribe simply wrote the wrong homophone for this particular passage.

[Justice]

If you study the Isaiah chapters in teh Book of Mormon and compare them in depth to the Old Testament counterparts, you will see that the BoM Isaiah chapters gives great insight into simple mistakes made in the OT. I'd venture to say the BoM is correct. The odds are it is, anyway. Joseph Smith proofed the text and read the text many, many times. I'm sure he'd have caught that had it been wrong.

I keep hearing everyone say Joseph Smith was finished with his Bible translation. From one perspective I agree. It was never his intention to completely re-translate the Bible. He was completed with what he wanted to translate. That does not mean the JST doesn't have any errors. It just means it wasn't his intention to fix some of them. So, from that perspective, I mean he never finished it, or he never made an entirely perfect translation. That wasn't his intention.

[Vort]

If you study the Isaiah chapters in teh Book of Mormon and compare them in depth to the Old Testament counterparts, you will see that the BoM Isaiah chapters gives great insight into simple mistakes made in the OT. I'd venture to say the BoM is correct. The odds are it is, anyway. Joseph Smith proofed the text and read the text many, many times. I'm sure he'd have caught that had it been wrong.

There were many thousands of other grammatical and spelling errors that the Prophet did not catch or correct. The simplest and most obvious explanation is that this is one of those.

[martybess]

I wonder if there's more to it. The power of the sun, it's energy, the light of Christ etc.

-----------------

Sun of Righteousness. In the scriptures, stars are commonly used symbolically to denote men. But the star nearest to the earth, known as the sun, represents the Son of God. Many of the prophets have compared the Son of God to this giant celestial orb. Malachi referred to the Lord as "the Sun of righteousness" (Mal. 4:2). Similarly, the Psalmist stated, "For the Lord God is a sun and shield" (Ps. 84:11). Matthew and John employed such similes when, speaking of Jesus, they wrote that "his face did shine as the sun" (Matt. 17:2), and that "his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength" (Rev. 1:16). Both the Apostle Paul and the Prophet Joseph Smith, after seeing the resurrected, glorified Lord, described his appearance as being "above the brightness of the sun" (Acts 26:13; JS 1:16). Lehi saw Jesus "descending out of the midst of heaven, and he beheld that his luster was above that of the sun at noonday" (1 Ne. 1:9).

Furthermore, Jesus is called the Star, the Dayspring (meaning "the dawn"), and the Light. A modern revelation says of Christ, "He is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made" (D&C 88:7). Finally, when John the Revelator viewed the celestial city, he recorded that "the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof" (Rev. 21:23).

In what way is Jesus like the sun?

-As far as this earth is concerned, there are many stars (men), but only one sun (Jesus Christ).

-The planets and the moons and other celestial orbs derive their light from the sun.

-The sun is considered the head of all the heavens.

-Men cannot look directly at the sun, as they will become blind.

-The sun shines upon all, both upon the righteous and the unrighteous.

-The sun always shines; its motions are both regular and predictable.

-The sun generates life.

-The sun dispels darkness; it exposes what the night hides.

-The sun rises in the east, as Jesus will in his second coming.

-The sun burns as well as builds, just as Jesus will at his second coming. (See also Star; part 1: Star; Sun.) [Donald W. Parry, Joseph Fielding McConkie, Guide to Scriptural Symbols]

East. As the direction of the dawn and the rising sun, it becomes a symbol of light, truth, and Christ. The orientation of the East Gate of the Temple at Jerusalem was such that on the days of the spring and fall equinoxes the first rays of the rising sun, heralding the advent of the glory of God, could penetrate into the Holy of Holies. Joseph Smith said that the coming of the Son of Man will be as the light of the morning coming out of the east (Smith, Joseph. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Joseph F. Smith, comp. Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1976., p. 287).

Zerahiah (Ezra 7:4). "Yah has shone." He is the Sun of Righteousness. (See also part 2: Sun of Righteousness.) [Donald W. Parry, Joseph Fielding McConkie]

Isaiah declares: "Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising" (Isaiah 60:1–3). The Psalmist proclaims, "Unto the upright there ariseth light in the darkness: he is gracious, and full of compassion, and righteous" (Psalm 112:4). The sending forth of God's glory like the dawn that breaks forth from the east, or as the sun which sheds light on all the inhabitants of the earth, is a symbol of "light, truth, and Christ."31 Regarding ancient temples, one author noted:

It should not go unnoticed that the gate was always to be located on the east side of the tabernacle. The first of the sun's rays would always point themselves to it. This heavenly light would thus reveal the beauty of the multicolored gate as the light of heaven reveals Christ as "the way, the truth, and the life" and the only way that men may approach the Father (John 14:6). . . . As the direction of the dawn and the rising sun, [east] becomes a symbol of light, truth, and Christ. The orientation of the East Gate of the Temple at Jerusalem was such that on the days of the spring and fall equinoxes the first rays of the rising sun, heralding the advent of the glory of God, could penetrate into the Holy of Holies. Joseph Smith said that the coming of the Son of Man will be as the light of the morning coming out of the east.32

On more than one occasion, Ezekiel spoke of the Messiah as entering his temple from the east (see Ezekiel 43:1–2, 4; see also 10:19).

The Prophet Joseph Smith repeatedly discoursed on the well-established figure of the rising of the sun as a symbol of the second advent of Christ. [The Lost Language of Symbolism by Alonzo L. Gaskill]

We read of the rising sun as a symbol for the second advent of Christ. Matthew records: "For as the light of the morning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, and covereth the whole earth; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (JST, Matthew 24:27; see also Psalm 113:3; Isaiah 45:6; 59:19; Malachi 1:11; Mark 13:29; Joseph Smith—Matthew 1:26) [The Lost Language of Symbolism by Alonzo L. Gaskill]

[Just_A_Guy]

The odds are it is, anyway. Joseph Smith proofed the text and read the text many, many times. I'm sure he'd have caught that had it been wrong.

Having spent time working as an editor/proofreader, I can say that you'd be surprised how easy it is to miss stuff. When I worked for one LDS publisher, every couple of months our senior editor would gather all the editors together in the room and we'd get our yuks reading typographical and grammatical howlers that had somehow made it into print (it was all done in the spirit of great fun).