Believe, Works, and Faith

[Justice]

aj4u,

We obviously have a difference in core beliefs. However, let's start over and move along very slowly. Let's use scripture to make our points.

I think our first difference begins as early as understanding what the scriptures mean by the word believe. Before we discuss the word believe, we should establish whether or not we both think it is required to believe.

Then, in order to move forward from there, we need to decide exactly what it is required for. Once we get that far we will have a more productive discussion about works.

First question:

Is it required for us to believe in Jesus Christ?

I believe I have asked as simple of a question as possible that can be answered with a yes or no answer. There are no tricks, no twists, no half-truths, no attempt to deceive or make you believe what I believe. So, if you believe the answer must be given in 2 or more parts, please do so, but state which is yes and which is no. I simply want to understand what you believe and to help you understand what I believe. That's all.

If you do not think it is required for us to believe in Christ (for something or anything) then we need to focus on that before we move on.

Second question:

If it is required for us to believe in Christ, what is the word(s) that descibes what we gain for belief in Christ?

I'll let you answer the first question. If your answer is no we need to discuss only that. If it is yes, we can move on to the next question, which you can go first.

All are welcome to participate.

Edited May 10, 2009 by Justice

[scooby]

Is it required for us to believe in Jesus Christ?

in order for what?

If it is required for us to believe in Christ, what is the word(s) that descibes what we gain for belief in Christ?

that was my question.

[Jim108]

To be saved we must believe in Jesus. (the blood of the lamb) However, we have free will, and most will not come to that conclusion.

[mikbone]

I submit that someone can be "saved" without ever believing or accepting Christ in this mortal life.

The fact that we exist here on Earth demonstrates that we accepted Jehovah as our savior during the pre-existence. Therefore everyone who comes to earth will be "saved" (excepting those Sons of Perdition though).

[scooby]

I submit that someone can be "saved" without ever believing or accepting Christ in this mortal life.

If by saved you mean inherit a kingdom of glory, then yes, but even then they must eventually confess that Jesus is the Christ. Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess.

Of course you're saying "in this mortal life"

[BenRaines]

I know the word SAVED gets thrown around a lot. Saved from what? Saved from mortal death, saved from the separation for Jesus Christ, saved from being cast out of Heavenly Father's presence? What are you each looking to be saved from?

Ben Raines

[mikbone]

If by saved you mean inherit a kingdom of glory, then yes, but even then they must eventually confess that Jesus is the Christ. Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess.

Of course you're saying "in this mortal life"

Im sneaky like that.

Im just trying to make a point that the concepts that we use to define our terms lead to most of the confusion that we have in debates.

[mikbone]

I know the word SAVED gets thrown around a lot. Saved from what? Saved from mortal death, saved from the separation for Jesus Christ, saved from being cast out of Heavenly Father's presence? What are you each looking to be saved from?

Ben Raines

Thats the whole point. Saved is a wastebasket term.

[Jim108]

Saved from the second death. When you are saved your name is in the book of life. You are worthy to live with God. Not of your own accord because we can not achieve being worthy to God by our own works. We need the blood of the lamb. For those who have never knew the WORD of Jesus, there is another way. You can find it in Romans 8. It talks about the "law". Some scholars believe this scripture gives an explanation of how some can be saved without ever knowing the word. Food for thought.

[mikbone]

Saved from the second death. When you are saved your name is in the book of life. You are worthy to live with God. Not of your own accord because we can not achieve being worthy to God by our own works. We need the blood of the lamb. For those who have never knew the WORD of Jesus, there is another way. You can find it in Romans 8. It talks about the "law". Some scholars believe this scripture gives an explanation of how some can be saved without ever knowing the word. Food for thought.

Before we can have a reasonable discussion your gonna need to define some more terms.

1) Second Death

2) God (with respect to "You are worthy to live with God")

God as we know it can refer to 3 personages. Elohim, Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost.

Those who attain the Celestial kingdom can interact with all 3 Gods.

Those who attain the Terrestrial kingdom can interact with Jehovah and the Holy Ghost.

Those who attain the Telestial kingdom can interact only with the Holy Ghost.

Those sons of perdition can not interact with any of the Gods.

D&C 76

[Jim108]

Before we can have a reasonable discussion your gonna need to define some more terms.

1) Second Death

2) God (with respect to "You are worthy to live with God")

God as we know it can refer to 3 personages. Elohim, Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost.

Those who attain the Celestial kingdom can interact with all 3 Gods.

Those who attain the Terrestrial kingdom can interact with Jehovah and the Holy Ghost.

Those who attain the Telestial kingdom can interact only with the Holy Ghost.

Those sons of perdition can not interact with any of the Gods.

D&C 76

Second death is damnation. As in "you are going to hell". This is the destiny for most I am very sad to say.

To live with God we need to believe in the"blood of the lamb". Only the blood of Jesus can clean us to be worthy of God. None of us can do that alone.

[Jim108]

Just thought of something. When the LDS say they are saved, what are you being saved from?

[prospectmom]

Second death is damnation. As in "you are going to hell". This is the destiny for most I am very sad to say.

LDS usually do not use the term saved.. Baptism says it all butin conversations with other christians that is a more easily understood term.

Your statement above to me is so sad..... I think most of us will not go to hell. I believe all will be judged on their own merits and life experiences. I think were harder on ourselves than God will be in the end.

[prisonchaplain]

Let's spell this out. When evangelicals speak of being saved we mean being saved from the just punishment for our sins. We understand that just payment to be death, which is an eternal separation from God in a place of torment. Hell is eternal. Further, we do believe that faith in Jesus is necessary to escape. The gift of God is eternal life, throught Jesus Christ our Lord. That gift comes to those who embrace it during this mortal existence. It is appointed unto men once to die, then the judgment. While there may or may not be differing awards based on one's service to God, all those saved will live in the same eternal kingdom.

Jim suggests that most will not embrace God's gift, most likely based upon the verse declaring the path to destructions as wide and broad, and that which leads to eternal life as being narrow and difficult. IMHO, the sad truth is that many who self-describe themselves as being saved are not. It's not for me to judge who, but the Bible speaks of those having a form of godliness, but who deny God's power.

Based upon my conversations and postings here I've come to understand that the LDS teaching is that faith in Christ is essential for exaltation, but perhaps not for entry into the Terrestial or Telestial Kingdoms. Further, that there will be opportunities post mortem to embrace God's gifts. So, in short, imho, LDS would answer "No," to the OP, but offer that the answer would be "Yes," if exalation is the ultimate goal of salvation.

Please feel free to correct any misperceptions I have.

Edited May 10, 2009 by prisonchaplain

[Justice]

Very good.

These are the types of things that keep us from seeing eye to eye.

This is going to be very difficult for members of the LDS Church, but I'd like to concentrate this discussion in the New Testament for those not of our faith.

Yes, we need to define "saved."

By saved, LDS most generally believe it means "from the effects of the fall." To be "saved" from something, there must be something to be saved from. So, first, by virtue of being born into this world we need to be redeemed from the fall. This is a free gift given to all men (women too) that will be born into this earth. This is a very difficult principle to grasp if you are not aware or believe in the pre-mortal existence. This is why LDS have a difficult time explaining their beliefs to others.

Sometimes we say "saved from sin," so we need to discuss that as well.

This free gift of being "saved" from the effects of the fall has no bearing on where a person ends up in eternity. This means we will be resurrected so that we may be an immortal being with a spirit body and a physical body (or a soul). This is the unconditional gift Christ gives all. This was His victory over the grave.

We know this can't be eternal life or salvation because not all will gain salvation.

To gain eternal life, one must believe in and exercise faith in Jesus Christ. Eternal Life is not a free gift offered to all because no unclean thing can dwell with God. Those who inherit this glory must be obedient to Christ's commandments and have their sins washed clean by His blood.

This means both past sins, or the sins they committed, and future sins, or their desire for sin. So, to be "saved" from the efftcts of sin, there needs to be an atonement (which we could not do) and a change of heart (which we cannot do without God).

What we do has no bearing whatsoever on Christ's atonement. But, what we do DOES have bearing on the help He offers to change our desires.

Christ answers for the penalty, but we must submit to God's will, follow the Spirit, and let the purifying power of the Spirit change our hearts and desires. With His help, and when we yield, we can become the sons of God. This is the power He gives us. But, no amount of power He gives us can overcome past sin, just help change our desires for sin. If we sin, there's a penatly. No amount of power given to us can remove our debt, He alone does that. But, we can be given power to change our heart and desires.

Romans 3:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

There are 2 kinds of sins in God's eyes, one that we HAVE committed, and ones that we DESIRE to commit. Sins that have been committed bring death, and must be atoned for. We must learn not to desire sin so when in His presence we don't commit anymore.

This is the enabling power of His grace that I pasted in from the Bible Dictionary.

But, we should take this discussion slowly.

Any comments?

Edited May 10, 2009 by Justice

[JohnnyRudick]

Just thought of something. When the LDS say they are saved, what are you being saved from?

What you are saved from.

The Second Death and Hell.

Then to be judged (not in danger of these things. Death and Hell) of our works and rewards according to our works,

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye

are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given

unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and

another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he

buildeth thereupon. . .

1 Corinthians 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the

ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

1 Corinthians 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a

man be found faithful.

Bro. Rudick

[aj4u]

I know the word SAVED gets thrown around a lot. Saved from what? Saved from mortal death, saved from the separation for Jesus Christ, saved from being cast out of Heavenly Father's presence? What are you each looking to be saved from?

Ben Raines

Saved from a Christless eternity!

[aj4u]

aj4u,

We obviously have a difference in core beliefs. However, let's start over and move along very slowly. Let's use scripture to make our points.

I think our first difference begins as early as understanding what the scriptures mean by the word believe. Before we discuss the word believe, we should establish whether or not we both think it is required to believe.

Then, in order to move forward from there, we need to decide exactly what it is required for. Once we get that far we will have a more productive discussion about works.

First question:

Is it required for us to believe in Jesus Christ?

I believe I have asked as simple of a question as possible that can be answered with a yes or no answer. There are no tricks, no twists, no half-truths, no attempt to deceive or make you believe what I believe. So, if you believe the answer must be given in 2 or more parts, please do so, but state which is yes and which is no. I simply want to understand what you believe and to help you understand what I believe. That's all.

If you do not think it is required for us to believe in Christ (for something or anything) then we need to focus on that before we move on. I do

Second question:

If it is required for us to believe in Christ, what is the word(s) that descibes what we gain for belief in Christ?

Eternal life is what we gain, but the devils believe too. The kind of believe I am referring to is to drink in the word to where Christ is not just in our life but Lord of our life

I'll let you answer the first question. If your answer is no we need to discuss only that. If it is yes, we can move on to the next question, which you can go first.

All are welcome to participate.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." If we do this we are doing the work of God and instead of us doing dead works in our own strength for God which will definitely be burned, God will create in us the will to do of His good pleasure so the works being done through us is wrought in God for which we will be blessed in the deed. There is where the major difference is. It is a matter of spiritual life and death. If I were to shrug at this, it would tell me I don't care about your soul or mine. That is the gospel. That is why it is called good news. We don't have to do it in our own strength. He will complete the work He started in us - not we ourselves! Edited May 11, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

what you are saved from.

The second death and hell.

Then to be judged (not in danger of these things. Death and hell) of our works and rewards according to our works,

1 corinthians 3:9 for we are labourers together with god: Ye

are god's husbandry, ye are god's building.

1 corinthians 3:10 according to the grace of god which is given

unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, i have laid the foundation, and

another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he

buildeth thereupon. . .

1 corinthians 4:1 let a man so account of us, as of the

ministers of christ, and stewards of the mysteries of god.

1 corinthians 4:2 moreover it is required in stewards, that a

man be found faithful.

Bro. Rudick

yes

[bytebear]

I think salvation in LDS terms can be referred to as keeping your second estate. The first estate was granted to those who fought against Satan in the war in heaven.

Abr. 3: 26, 28

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

• • •

28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

Jude 1: 6

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

The second estate is those who believe in Christ, enter in covenant with him (through baptism) and have been judged as keeping that covenant at the bar of judgement.

Here are some guides to poinder:

Guide to the Scriptures: Premortal Life

The life before earth life. All men and women lived with God as his spirit children before coming to the earth as mortal beings. This is sometimes called the first estate (Abr. 3: 26).

When God laid the foundations of the earth, all the sons of God shouted for joy, Job 38: 4-7. The spirit shall return unto God who gave it, Eccl. 12: 7. Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, Jer. 1: 4-5. We are all his offspring, Acts 17: 28. God chose us before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1: 3-4. We are to be in subjection to the Father of spirits, Heb. 12: 9. The angels which kept not their first estate, he hath reserved in everlasting chains, Jude 1: 6 (Abr. 3: 26). The Devil and his angels were cast out, Rev. 12: 9. They were called and prepared from the foundation of the world, Alma 13: 3. Christ looked upon the expanse of eternity and hosts of heaven before the world was made, D&C 38: 1. Man was also in the beginning with God, D&C 93: 29 (Hel. 14: 17; D&C 49: 17). Noble spirits were chosen in the beginning to be rulers in the Church, D&C 138: 53-55. Many received their first lessons in the world of spirits, D&C 138: 56. All things were created spiritually before they were on earth, Moses 3: 5. I made the world, and men before they were in the flesh, Moses 6: 51. Abraham saw the intelligences that were organized before the world was, Abr. 3: 21-24.

Guide to the Scriptures: Mortal, Mortality

The time from birth until physical death. This is sometimes called the second estate.

In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die, Gen. 2: 16-17 (Moses 3: 16-17). At death the spirit shall return to God and the body to the dust of the earth, Eccl. 12: 7 (Gen. 3: 19; Moses 4: 25). Do not let sin reign in your mortal body, Rom. 6: 12. This mortal body must put on immortality, 1 Cor. 15: 53 (Enos 1: 27; Mosiah 16: 10; Morm. 6: 21). Man’s state became a state of probation, 2 Ne. 2: 21 (Alma 12: 24; 42: 10). Adam fell that men might be, 2 Ne. 2: 25. Do you look forward and view this mortal body raised in immortality? Alma 5: 15. This life is the time to prepare to meet God, Alma 34: 32. Do not fear death, for your joy is not full in this world, D&C 101: 36. Those who keep their second estate shall have glory, Abr. 3: 26.

[Justice]

Let me comment on that scripture you quoted.

Let's say God works in man and does everything required for that man, including instilling him with belief.

Why are only some men instilled with this belief, and not all?

[Jim108]

This has been a very good conversation. Lots of good input and learning going on here. Well done to all posters.

[aj4u]

Let me comment on that scripture you quoted.

Let's say God works in man and does everything required for that man, including instilling him with belief.

Why are only some men instilled with this belief, and not all?

First of all, God has written his laws on the hearts of all people groups. For example, all people know that stealing is wrong, bearing false witness, killing and adultery Etc. But they don't (or not all people) know who God is. In order for God to work in man to do of His good pleasure, that man must first receive God on His terms. It must be on God terms not my terms, your terms, or some modern prophet's terms. The belief in God comes by hearing the Word of God. When the seed of God's word is received in the heart and watered, God is the only one who gives the increase. It is God who will finish the work He started in me, but if I choose to trust my works in my own strength, then I won't have God's grace. In other words, it will be dead works. What I do for God in my strength cannot compare to what God does through me in His power. This is the night and day difference I have been trying to communicate with you. Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice and they follow" Do you hear His voice? Edited May 11, 2009 by aj4u

[BenRaines]

It is good to understand what others believe about just one word SAVED. Death is what will come upon all. LDS believe that resurrection too will come to all that have lived a mortal life. In one case I am saved from mortal death through Christ, by His resurrection. By His atoning sacrifice I too can be saved from spiritual death.

Ben Raines

[aj4u]

Work out your own salvation = Godly

Work for your own salvation = death