What comes first, faith or hope?

[martybess]

What comes first, faith or hope?

Does faith bring hope or hope bring faith?

Marty_____________________________

Edited May 16, 2009 by martybess

[tubaloth]

I read this by Dennis F. Rasmussen a philosophy professor at BYU.

"Hope…requires an awareness of time and power to conceive what has not yet occurred. We say "tomorrow" or "next week" or "next year," and often fail to the note the marvel: we can speak and think about what has not yet happened and does not yet exist… [O]nly intelligent beings understand this, and they alone can hope.

Once we graps the idea that Salvation is something that comes in the future (Time). As we live our life for the hope of this salvation, then we have faith. We have faith that what we are doing now is leading us towards future salvation. But I feel with out having a hope of something to come, a hope in Jesus Christ (that he can bless us, take away our sins or so forth) real faith can't come.

[kiwii]

I view Faith as being independent of any expectation for the future.

Hope, to my way of thinking, has more to do with understanding.

[Islander]

I suggest modern English is to blame for the semantic upheaval.

Until just recently faith was utilized almost exclusively in reference to deity, when God was involved.

We tend to interchange the words now but when we speak of "matters of faith" everybody recognizes we are speaking about religion.

We can hope for many things, but our faith is in Christ. After our faith has been strengthen by the many miracles our Lord has done for us our hope becomes unstoppable. For then we know that we can hope to reach new highs and do all things by the hand of God.

Just my take on the subject.

[the Ogre]

What comes first, faith or hope?

Does faith bring hope or hope bring faith?

Marty_____________________________

How about this:

Moroni 7:

42 Wherefore, if a man have faith he must needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope.

43 And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be meek, and lowly of heart.

44 If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have charity; for if he have not charity he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have charity.

I guess the answer: before hope or faith comes meekness. Hope and Faith can come at the same time and must be accompanied by charity. I personally don't think it matter in which order they come in. (F + H + Ch) is proceeded by being meek.

I hope that helped.

Edited May 14, 2009 by the Ogre

[rameumptom]

Faith is an active belief in Christ's atonement. Hope is the "mind's eye" vision of that faith realized. Moroni taught that hope is an anchor to the soul, by having us focus on the better world to come (Ether 12:4). Faith, meanwhile, does not of itself focus on futurity, but on the here and now.

I believe and act upon the faith I have in Christ. I envision a better world with my hope, which helps to strengthen my faith through difficult times by refocusing me on the truly eternal things.

[Kenny]

In Jesus’ ministry He preformed many miracles but told the recipients to only praise God and say nothing of the marvellous things done to them. Later believers fell into two groups those that had hope in Christ despite what he did and those that hoped he was the Christ because of what he did.

My faith in Christ is despite what He does I always believe in Him because He knows me better than myself and will never forsake me especially in difficult times.

Edited May 15, 2009 by Kenny

[Justice]

Hope definately comes first. Hope for a better future is what drives a man to take God at His words and try ot test His words by obeying the commandments.

First a person hears the word of God

They must *believe* it is true first (believe)

If they believe then they hope it can work for them individually (hope)

Then when they hope they obey, or they act to bring about the promised reward (work--the final ingredient to faith)

That's the way I understand it.

[martybess]

I guess I'm going to stray from my original question here.

What about faith to be healed. This is not the kind of faith it seems all are talking about. When one asks you what is your faith? Or rather what religion do you belong too? I have faith in Christ and that I will be redeemed and glorified if I'm worthy. I know that is truth but what brings about the miracle to be healed, let me ask that?

This is what I'm really trying to understand in my mind. What does it take to be healed?

Thanks for the help,

-Marty

[the Ogre]

. . . What about faith to be healed[?] This is not the kind of faith it seems all are talking about. When one asks you what is your faith? Or rather what religion do you belong too? I have faith in Christ and that I will be redeemed and glorified if I'm worthy. I know that is truth but what brings about the miracle to be healed, let me ask that?

This is what I'm really trying to understand in my mind. What does it take to be healed?

Okay, I am not as much as a stickler as many on this site are going to be, but I think hope and faith here are equal (can you hear the mice: quibble quibble quibble). I think you have the first ingredient: Faith that it is G-d who is doing the healing. I have heard of real faith-healing done by members of other faiths. Remember what Paul said about spiritual gifts. They are not for creating faith, only reinforcing it (quibble quibble quibble). These folks had faith that G-d would heal them and as such H- did. So, first: faith.

Second: I believe Authority is a big help. The priesthood is there to be utilized. Priesthood blessings do not take the place of faith, however. Seek out preisthood authority and the blessings the priesthood carries (keep in mind, this has nothing to do with the bearer, it has everything to do with the authority itself).

Third: Make sure you are going to the doctor. I know several LDS who feel that doctors are superfulous. I think that is foolish. Part of faith is trusting the L-rd to guide the doctors (even if they are money-grubbing heathens like doctors tend to be) in your care.

Forth: have more faith. Fast and pray. Read the scriptures. Post on LDS.net (ummm . . . okay, that might not be a factor, but there are some nice people here who would love to listen and provide support).

Fifth: Smile and be happy. Your good spirits and cheer will always help and will broadcast your faith and love of the L-rd.

[kiwii]

This is what I'm really trying to understand in my mind. What does it take to be healed?

Faith. The Faith of a child - complete and total trust and acceptance that it is. No expectations, no concern for the outcome... it just is.

edit: which isn't to say that G-d is restricted to only healing those with Faith, or that Faith guarantees healing. Part of having Faith, I think, is acceptance that all things are done according to His will.

Edited May 15, 2009 by kiwii

[Kenny]

Ok, we lived with God prior to coming down here, he loved us perfectly, and we were balanced human beings, no hang ups. We had free agency and we had curiosity. We must have reached the limits of our existence because we questioned why our Father and Mother were not tangible spirits like we were. Then the plan was put to us. This was a perfect plan and the only way to obtain the joy our Father and Mother enjoyed.

So our Farther sent us down here as mature spirits into infant bodies, (only Adam and Eve were placed in mature bodies) to have all knowledge of our past existence veiled over. The Lord had taught us how to continue to receive the instructions we had received since we were organised.

So the majority of the human family forgot how to get this instruction and lent upon their own understanding and with it the diminishing of faith replaced by hope but hope not by faith where the real power was but a lesser hope tinged with doubt.

God can by a single word heal the afflicted He does this by faith, we possess the same ability to use the same power but lack the faith.

Does the Lord love us any less because we lack the faith to heal ourselves and others, no! We have doctors as a testament to that even though we don’t really need them.

Having a limited faith we fall short of our true potential so God commands us to be obedient, obedience is one of the keys to strengthening faith. By obedience we learn to trust God, by obedience we diminish doubt and hope returns to God, our loving Farther blesses us when we do as he asks without murmuring just like we reward our children when they do likewise.

[Moksha]

I would imagine the desire for hope would preceed the formation of faith.

[Kenny]

It depends what kind of hope you desire!

If you hope that God will save you if you are worthy then that sort of hope is tinged with doubt, it lacks the full power of faith.

But if you truly believe then you accept that God always tells the truth that he cannot lie otherwise he ceases to be God so then you have hope in him because whatever he says must be right.

Faith is also like this; you have fallen over the edge of a precipice and hang from certain death by only your finger tips. You call for help until you are hoarse but no one is near, finally and as a last hope you call on God for help and Jesus comes to your aid and asks what he can do for you. You asked to be saved. He replies ‘do you truly believe I can save you?’ 'Yes', you say with all the faith you have in you, hoping that it is sufficient, Jesus reaches out to you and says ‘then let go’.

If you hope he will save you then you probably won’t have the courage to let go.

But if you have faith not wavering then the power of faith comes into play and Jesus will save you and then you have hope in Him.

Faith precedes hope

Edited May 16, 2009 by Kenny

[martybess]

Okay, I am not as much as a stickler as many on this site are going to be, but I think hope and faith here are equal (can you hear the mice: quibble quibble quibble). I think you have the first ingredient: Faith that it is G-d who is doing the healing. I have heard of real faith-healing done by members of other faiths. Remember what Paul said about spiritual gifts. They are not for creating faith, only reinforcing it (quibble quibble quibble). These folks had faith that G-d would heal them and as such H- did. So, first: faith.

Second: I believe Authority is a big help. The priesthood is there to be utilized. Priesthood blessings do not take the place of faith, however. Seek out preisthood authority and the blessings the priesthood carries (keep in mind, this has nothing to do with the bearer, it has everything to do with the authority itself).

Third: Make sure you are going to the doctor. I know several LDS who feel that doctors are superfulous. I think that is foolish. Part of faith is trusting the L-rd to guide the doctors (even if they are money-grubbing heathens like doctors tend to be) in your care.

Forth: have more faith. Fast and pray. Read the scriptures. Post on LDS.net (ummm . . . okay, that might not be a factor, but there are some nice people here who would love to listen and provide support).

Fifth: Smile and be happy. Your good spirits and cheer will always help and will broadcast your faith and love of the L-rd.

Ogre,

Thanks for the specifics on faith to be healed! Some good advice here! Sincere advice. Not just trying to prove how smart you are. There's specifics on the faith that heals. I can't just say I have faith and not be doing what I need to do and expect it to work. Your comments give hope and encouragement. Faith to be healed I think is a gift from the angels that HF sends to us. It is my hope that at some point I will have that gift given.

[martybess]

Thanks for all the great stuff! Some really great grass roots stuff. When one reads about faith at least for me its a bit vague or over the top.

-Marty

[kiwii]

Marty, Thank you so much for this thread. Thinking about the question has given me a lightbulb moment on how to apply Faith when it does not already exist, and especially when things seem overwhelming or scary. Exactly what I needed for my current circumstance!

Things are looking a whole lot brighter.

[MikeUpton]

If there is ever a pressing need to have that healing immediately happen in order to keep a given commandment for example, you can be sure that God will bless you immediately as needed so that you may have power to do his will. Such as if God commanded you to run a marathon tomorrow, but you are paralyzed. This would be in keeping his promise to provide a way for man:

50 And I said unto them: If God had commanded me to do all things I could do them. If he should command me that I should say unto this water, be thou earth, it should be earth; and if I should say it, it would be done.

1 Nephi 17

7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

1 Nephi 3

and here:

3 And thus we see that the commandments of God must be fulfilled. And if it so be that the children of men keep the commandments of God he doth nourish them, and strengthen them, and provide means whereby they can accomplish the thing which he has commanded them; wherefore, he did provide means for us while we did sojourn in the wilderness.

1 Nephi 17

additionally, remember that faith is built on a foundation of truth, you must have truth before you can have faith, for you can not have faith in anything, save it be true.

You must also believe sufficiently that you will recieve, or else it will not happen.

You must also keep God's commandments.

[Hemidakota]

Marty, Thank you so much for this thread. Thinking about the question has given me a lightbulb moment on how to apply Faith when it does not already exist, and especially when things seem overwhelming or scary. Exactly what I needed for my current circumstance!

Things are looking a whole lot brighter.

Or know how to invoke the Spirit when needed.

[Justice]

Aw man, here's this thread. I started a new one because I couldn't find it.

Can a mod move my post here and delete my other thread?

[Kenny]

I mention in the last thread the need for obedience as a key to the real power of faith.

Does God answer every pray?

Yes he does!!

So why don’t we always get what we want?

Is not praying to learn to do what the Lord wants for us and not what we think we want?

So if you want to run a marathon but are physically unable but asked God to be cured but still nothings happens does not mean that the Lord has not answered your prayer or just because you lacked the sufficient faith?

Jesus made many references to the lack of faith in his disciples yet said if they had faith the size of a mustard seed they could say to the mountain be ye flat and it would obey.

So is our faith less than even a mustard seed which is minute?

The problem I think is not understanding the Lord’s will in this. If we had just a minute practical of real faith what would we do with it? Would we go around removing mountains or turning water into land or healing the sick and afflicted willy-nilly, would we end wars with a single thought or perhaps influence our fellow man to be good?

We first have to understand God who is the architect of all things, know his ways and are guided by his wisdom then we can accept things are for righteous purposes and that while running a marathon on two good legs might be the desires of our heart it might not what the Lord knows is best for us.

But what if he is called to run young men’s as president, a task surely needing at the very least two legs , but knows the Lord would not call anyone to such a post unless he had prepared a way for him to do so. Then as a result of that calling one young man who might have fallen away passes through the program, goes on a mission and teaches one man the gospel that then is baptised, both he and the baptised man marries their external partners in the Temple, holds various callings including bishops and stake presidents.

During his ministry the Lord healed many people with various problems, the lame, blind, crippled even the recently deceased but to me none were more profound than the raising from the dead of Lazarus and healing of the blind man he anointed with clay.

Jesus could have easily made it to Lazarus’s side while he was yet alive but chose to delay to not only allow Lazarus to die but long enough to dispel any doubts that he was not in a coma or something. Burying him wrapped from head to foot in burial clothes had he been alive would have suffocated him. Lazarus was dearly loved by Jesus so not to come to his immediate aid is not something he would do unless it was His Father’s will.

With healing the blind He simple had to touch them but with the last recorded case of Him healing the blind saw Him scooping up dust and using spittle to form clay. Was this man without eyes? Did Jesus fashion eyeballs from the clay to demonstrate and dispel any doubt of his power.

The blind man was seen by the leaders as a sinner or his parents as sinners hence his condition but in this as in all cases prior these people existed or were in their conditions for righteous purposes and to allow Jesus to perform these miracles.

We can do the Lord’s will even if that is healing someone that is paralysed to run a marathon but we first must learn to be obedient and accept His will in everything even if we naturally disagree or don't understand.

Edited May 19, 2009 by Kenny

[Hemidakota]

what comes first, faith or hope?

Does faith bring hope or hope bring faith?

Marty_____________________________

desire.....hope.....faith.....charity

[Kenny]

Faith, real faith is hope in Christ, hope in Christ increases faith or connects us with the true source of the power of faith.

We are here to choose either to follow God's plan or Lucifer's. If it’s the former we need to turn our lives over to Him and be guided by Him, which takes faith.

God cannot lie and tells us that by doing His will we can inherit all that He has, that is hope.

It is hope because we are not perfect and only perfect beings get through this life by themselves. Jesus was the only being that has done this and has satisfied the demands of Justice He can act on our behalf and plead not for our sake but his.

Jesus has given us the ability to repent and true repentance qualifies us for the mercy of God and through the grace of God we are saved

If we chose Lucifer’s way we can do more or less what we want except determine the consequences. The best we can hope for here is that God will forgive us but we have no promise.

[MikeUpton]

i suppose hope comes in the hope something is out there. but the sort of hope that leads you to keep on keeping the commandments in hope for a better world comes from faith.

Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

Ether 12

Its interesting that hope creates an anchor to your soul to make you steadfast. Another thing that leads you to keep the commandments and be steadfast is your level of humility and submissiveness to deity, which can be found by trusting in God.

[martybess]

i suppose hope comes in the hope something is out there. but the sort of hope that leads you to keep on keeping the commandments in hope for a better world comes from faith.

Ether 12

Its interesting that hope creates an anchor to your soul to make you steadfast. Another thing that leads you to keep the commandments and be steadfast is your level of humility and submissiveness to deity, which can be found by trusting in God.

This is what I'm thinking too.

Hearing leads to hope.

Hope leads to faith.

Faith gives a greater hope that if we hold on [keep commandments, be obedient] we will make it.

Trust! This has to be a key along with being meek.

-Marty