roytucker Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 I believe LDS sometimes struggle to fully reconcile the concept of the Godhead and their separate roles with various scriptures that confuse their roles. For example, is Jesus the Father? Traditionally, LDS may respond something like, "The Father is a separate being from Jesus. We pray to the Father in the name of Jesus. We do not pray to Jesus." Certainly, this was my position. From my reading of scripture, I put forward the following theory: 1. Jesus was/is Jehovah of the Old Testament. The Jews prayed to Jehovah. 2. Abinadi explains that Jesus is both "the Father and the Son" 3. King Benjamin explains that we are spiritually begotten sons and daughters of Christ. He is our Father. 4. The Nephite apostles prayed to Jesus because He was in their presence. If He was not, they would have prayed the Father in the name of Jesus. 5. A number of times, Jesus makes it clear that He is addressing "the Father" for the sake of those listening, not because He needed to. 6. Jesus tells Philip that He who has seen Jesus has seen the Father. The way I look at it is this: Jesus has taken the role/title of *Father* to us. (He has inherited all that the Father has). It is up to us to take the role of *Son* to Him. This is why we pray in His name, ie. we take upon us the name of Christ. In the same sense that Christ became the Father through obedience to *His* Father's will, we also can attain the role/title of Father through obedience to *our* Father's will, ie. Jesus. What do you think? Roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Jesus becomes our Father in the covenant and in the covenant we become the "sons of G-d" through Jesus. The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Very good roytucker. Agreed. And, as much of a shock as this might be to some, I have nothing to add. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-train Posted May 20, 2009 Report Share Posted May 20, 2009 A father is only designated as such insofar as he gives life. Certainly the Giver of Eternal Life is an Eternal Father to them that receive. Jesus, as our Giver of Eternal Life, is our Eternal Father. -a-train Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyRudick Posted May 21, 2009 Report Share Posted May 21, 2009 Very good roytucker.Agreed. And, as much of a shock as this might be to some, I have nothing to add. :)Me too.I tried to say this the other day and not sure if I botched it but I wish I had had roytucker in my pocket (or fingers) to write it for me:DBro. Rudick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faded Posted May 21, 2009 Report Share Posted May 21, 2009 Good post Roy. It's one of those topics that members seem to inexplicably stumble over when it is not really that complicated at all. In the eternal sense, my earthly father is really my brother. So if I can reconcile that idea with ease, then I think it shouldn't be confusing at all: I can accept that Jesus Christ becomes our adoptive Father when we are cleansed by his Atoning sacrifice. Yes Jesus Christ is my brother because we have the same Heavenly Father. But consider this: I do not focus on my brotherly status that my earthly father and I share. It would seem disrespectful and taboo to do so. Likewise, I do not focus on the brotherly status I share with the Father who has spiritually begotten me unto salvation in this life, Jesus Christ. The multi-use of the term "Father" makes it seem confusing to a lot of people I suppose. I know it has for me from time to time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maya Posted May 21, 2009 Report Share Posted May 21, 2009 Interesting ... Thank you for clareance. Very well put in to words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted May 21, 2009 Report Share Posted May 21, 2009 I believe LDS sometimes struggle to fully reconcile the concept of the Godhead and their separate roles with various scriptures that confuse their roles. For example, is Jesus the Father?Traditionally, LDS may respond something like, "The Father is a separate being from Jesus. We pray to the Father in the name of Jesus. We do not pray to Jesus." Certainly, this was my position.From my reading of scripture, I put forward the following theory:1. Jesus was/is Jehovah of the Old Testament. The Jews prayed to Jehovah.2. Abinadi explains that Jesus is both "the Father and the Son"3. King Benjamin explains that we are spiritually begotten sons and daughters of Christ. He is our Father.4. The Nephite apostles prayed to Jesus because He was in their presence. If He was not, they would have prayed the Father in the name of Jesus.5. A number of times, Jesus makes it clear that He is addressing "the Father" for the sake of those listening, not because He needed to.6. Jesus tells Philip that He who has seen Jesus has seen the Father.The way I look at it is this: Jesus has taken the role/title of *Father* to us. (He has inherited all that the Father has). It is up to us to take the role of *Son* to Him. This is why we pray in His name, ie. we take upon us the name of Christ. In the same sense that Christ became the Father through obedience to *His* Father's will, we also can attain the role/title of Father through obedience to *our* Father's will, ie. Jesus.What do you think?RoyHow can any Saint stumble over the Godhead when the First Vision reveals the roles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyRudick Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 How can any Saint stumble over the Godhead when the First Vision reveals the roles?I don't believe we can.It is just that we try to document the Truth for Truth Seekers.Bro. Rudick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christianguy Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Doesn't the Bible say Jesus and the Father are one? Meaning Jesus is God the Father. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Doesn't the Bible say Jesus and the Father are one? Meaning Jesus is God the Father.In LDS theology those statements are taken as statements of unity rather then a statement of being. See for instance John 17:11, 21-22 we don't take those to mean that Christ was praying that the Apostles (or Christians in general) would become one being but one in unity. Kinda like how a Husband and Wife are one (united) but they are still two separate beings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christianguy Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 thanks, that's very insightful, but then why was Jesus crucified? Didn't He claim to be, as you are saying, "being equal to God" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyRudick Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 thanks, that's very insightful, but then why was Jesus crucified? Didn't He claim to be, as you are saying, "being equal to God"John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,even so must the Son of man be lifted up:John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish,but have eternal life.John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his onlybegotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,but have everlasting life.John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemnthe world; but that the world through him might be saved.John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but hethat believeth not is condemned already, because he hath notbelieved in the name of the only begotten Son of God.John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come intothe world, and men loved darkness rather than light, becausetheir deeds were evil.John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light,neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that hisdeeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.Bro. Rudick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maya Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 (edited) Doesn't the Bible say Jesus and the Father are one? Meaning Jesus is God the Father.We also have the testimony of Joseph Smith, where he saw two personages. Neither do we believe that Jesus was talking to himself when he adressed HF.Wery seldom someone is his own father... Edited May 23, 2009 by Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maya Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 thanks, that's very insightful, but then why was Jesus crucified? Didn't He claim to be, as you are saying, "being equal to God"His death as I have understood has 2 functions: 1. His death allows all people to ressaurect. 2. With his suffering he saved us from having to suffer for our sins. He tok all our sins on him and redeemed them (not sure if that is the right word). Why he had to do that is that God is rigious(nes) in his precense there can not be anything that is wrong. In other words those that have done wrong parish in his precense. However his rigiousness and love allow a free willing substitute to suffer for us. This substitute is our big brother Jesus, whom we believe was chosen to the task by all of us who are here on earth, and who ever have been born here on earth. In other words we believe that everyone is risen from death, but forgiveness is only for those who search for it and approfe Jesus as his/her saviour. This forgiveness allows persons closer to god while mere resaured people dont bear His precense. Thus there has to be different kingdoms, which differ from one an other like the light of stars, moon and sun... And yet there is the suns of Peredition who will be sent to the outer darkness.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-train Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Doesn't the Bible say Jesus and the Father are one? Meaning Jesus is God the Father.So are you a proponent of Modalism?-a-train Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christianguy Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 So are you a proponent of Modalism?-a-trainI feel there is far more evidence in the Bible to support the three in one philosophy than three distinct and separate beings. There is far too much evidence to the deity of Jesus to be overlooked. John 14:9... just one of many examples.... "anyone who has seen me has seen the Father"....Jesus goes on to say that "He" Himself answers prayer....Too much evidence to be overlooked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAngelPalmoni Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 The name of the Father and the name of the Son and the name of the Holy Ghost must be the same name which is JESUS CHRIST, because every ordinance and prayer that is done in the church is done is his name (Jesus Christ). The name that saves the Christian is Jesus Christ and since it is the only name given where by man can be saved it stands to reason that..... the Fathers name must also be Jesus Christ so HE saved the sons of God in the Times Past. (Job 38:7) Also it is imperative that the name of the Holy Ghost is also Jesus Christ in order to save out Future Spirit Chrildren, the Morning Stars of the next plan of salvations. Crazy enough that I just finished a few drawings on the Names fo the Father Son and Holy Ghost... you can find them herePalmoni Scrolls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyRudick Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 The name of the Father and the name of the Son and the name of the Holy Ghost must be the same name which is JESUS CHRIST, because every ordinance and prayer that is done in the church is done is his name (Jesus Christ). The name that saves the Christian is Jesus Christ and since it is the only name given where by man can be saved it stands to reason that..... the Fathers name must also be Jesus Christ so HE saved the sons of God in the Times Past. (Job 38:7) Also it is imperative that the name of the Holy Ghost is also Jesus Christ in order to save out Future Spirit Chrildren, the Morning Stars of the next plan of salvations. Crazy enough that I just finished a few drawings on the Names fo the Father Son and Holy Ghost... you can find them herePalmoni ScrollsSorry guy but, nope:rolleyes:The ordnance formula you just gave actually shows the opposite.I am so sorry to have to say this but Jehovah the God that is referred to in the verse you gave is true.Jehovah is the Savior but Jehovah is not the Father referred to in the Ordnance formula. It is Elohim, the Father of Spirits.We call the Holy Ghost the Holy Ghost because of the Death of the Lord Jesus Christ.That person of the God Head stands in as the Ghost of the Risen Lord and we refer to Him now separate as from the Spirit of the Lord.I know it is a little hard to wrap your mind around but if you study and stay in the Scriptures enough and avoid the commentaries so much, not altogether as they are good study guides but stick more to just writing your own commentaries on the Scriptures and things will start falling into a pattern for you.Bro. Rudick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim108 Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Doesn't the Bible say Jesus and the Father are one? Meaning Jesus is God the Father.Yes it does. Thank you for bringing this up. Jesus is God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyRudick Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Yes it does. Thank you for bringing this up. Jesus is God.Yes Jim, Thank you for bringing this up. Jesus is God, Elohim is God and the Holy Ghost is God:DBro. Rudick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAngelPalmoni Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Jonny Rudick, are you LDS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmy- Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Not to get off on a tangent here.. but this is a fun topic. 1) Adam is a previously exalted Being and the father of all humans on earth. 2) Adam is Michael 3) Michael is "The Ancient of Days" and the Patriarch of our race 4) Michael holds the keys to the priesthood and will give them to Jesus at Adam-ondi-Ahman. 5) Who then is the Father of all living, the leader of the hosts of heaven, and the one capable of giving Jesus authority (keys) in all things? God the Father. It's interesting.. at the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyRudick Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Not to get off on a tangent here.. but this is a fun topic. 1) Adam is a previously exalted Being and the father of all humans on earth.2) Adam is Michael3) Michael is "The Ancient of Days" and the Patriarch of our race4) Michael holds the keys to the priesthood and will give them to Jesus at Adam-ondi-Ahman.5) Who then is the Father of all living, the leader of the hosts of heaven, and the one capable of giving Jesus authority (keys) in all things? God the Father.It's interesting.. at the least. Exactly right;)That is the Priority.:)Bro. Rudick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyRudick Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Jonny Rudick, are you LDS?Was baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Chugiak Branch in 1962:DBro. Rudick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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