Does LDS doctrine clash with the Bible?

[Palerider]

That is kind of you John I appreciate it. You see I don't mind being baited. I have not look at material for the third time on the internet against Mormonism, but I am being tempted to peak. Seriously, I wouldn't even be interest in seeing anything from people that hate Mormons. I am not afraid of the baptism questions I have answered them several times, but I'll be happy to repeat it. I can try to stay on topic, If I go off topic, please, understand that it is a blunder of the mind and not of the heart. Please understand I really think I need to take a break not just for the sake of others for me as well.

But I do have another question to take my break with in 3 Nephi 8:9,10,14 and 9:4,5,6,8 where cities and inhabitants were down under the waters. Are there archeological evidence for these? if not, Why?

Since you stated you will not be posting for awhile because of your studying....go read this site...here is a link....enjoy it..

Answers About Mormons and Mormon Belief (LDS FAQ - Latter-day Saints)

[pam]

That is kind of you John I appreciate it. You see I don't mind being baited. I have not look at material for the third time on the internet against Mormonism, but I am being tempted to peak. Seriously, I wouldn't even be interest in seeing anything from people that hate Mormons. I am not afraid of the baptism questions I have answered them several times, but I'll be happy to repeat it. I can try to stay on topic, If I go off topic, please, understand that it is a blunder of the mind and not of the heart. Please understand I really think I need to take a break not just for the sake of others for me as well.

But I do have another question to take my break with in 3 Nephi 8:9,10,14 and 9:4,5,6,8 where cities and inhabitants were down under the waters. Are there archeological evidence for these? if not, Why?

Why not start another thread on this one. No disrespect but you are again changing the subject to an entirely different subject.

[Faded]

Does LDS doctrine clash with the Bible?

To paraphrase Joseph Smith's answer to "do Mormons believe in the Bible?" he said, "Yes, the difference is that we believe in the whole thing." Imperfect quote but we're going from memory here. You get the idea.

Gal 1: 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Depends on what you mean. "Gospel" means good news. The good news is that Christ came, lived, suffered for our sins, died and rose from the dead, and that through this all of us may one day receive Eternal Life.

So wherein does that differ from the good news you're accustomed to?

But I know where you were headed with this. The real question you should be asking yourself is, "Am I elevating the religious beliefs I was raised with and taught by my ecclesiastical leaders throughout my life to Paul's 'the one that has been preached to you'?" Do you think that Paul meant the teachings of the Apostles or do you think he meant the teachings of modern day ministers, priests and pastors?

We do not disagree with the Bible. We disagree with how other religions have misunderstood it over the centuries. That is not the same thing as disagreeing with the Bible. That is disagreeing with non-Biblical traditionalism. In that fact, we're not so different from Jesus Christ's rejection of Rabbinical traditionalism. In both cases, the traditions are unfounded and unauthorized additions to the original teachings. Old Christian traditions become a lens through which Orthodox Christianity has learned to interpret the Bible. But is the lens of God or of man?

[Carl62]

If your going to follow the law of tithing as many of my Christian brethern do. Please note that it is not a charitable act as you mentioned. When one tithes, they are not even giving. It is something that belongs to the Lord not you. I do not believe that 10% belongs to the Lord. I believe all I have does. I believe being a disciple requires that we forsake all the we have (ALL)because it is all the Lords. I don't mean forsake all symbolically; I Mean do it literally. Luke 14:33 I did it, and it caused my brothers and mother to disown me. I was like the rich youn ruler at the time and Jesus challenged me with forsaking all to follow him.

Well, for us it is a charitable act because we're taking something that the Lord owns and has allowed us to have possesion of (our money) and we're using it to help others (10%). As far as a person giving ALL that they have to follow in Jesus's footsteps, can you honestly say that you have forsaken EVERYTHING YOU OWN, MATERIALLY AND FINANCIALLY, to be with Jesus? You mean that you don't have a roof over your head that you own/rent? or a nice warm bed? or some mode of transportation? or a *cough* computer in which you type these messages on *cough*? Surely you need money to eat, or to clothe yourself, or to pay your computer bill:p? How do you attain all that since you say that you've sacrificed EVERYTHING, and then try to hold everybody else up to that same standard? In all honesty, if this is what is literally required of us, then heaven is gonna be one loooonely place since, by even the most devout of Christian standards, this seems a bit unrealistic in this day and time. My hats off to anyone who can do it though. Edited May 28, 2009 by Carl62

[john doe]

That is kind of you John I appreciate it. You see I don't mind being baited. I have not look at material for the third time on the internet against Mormonism, but I am being tempted to peak. Seriously, I wouldn't even be interest in seeing anything from people that hate Mormons. I am not afraid of the baptism questions I have answered them several times, but I'll be happy to repeat it. I can try to stay on topic, If I go off topic, please, understand that it is a blunder of the mind and not of the heart. Please understand I really think I need to take a break not just for the sake of others for me as well.

But I do have another question to take my break with in 3 Nephi 8:9,10,14 and 9:4,5,6,8 where cities and inhabitants were down under the waters. Are there archeological evidence for these? if not, Why?

Wow, not even two sentences passed before you broke your own attempt. Keep trying, we'll still be here.

As to your topic-switching question, the answer is not yet. But there are becoming more and more evidences from Central and South America that there were once great societies living down there. You should do a little research on the pyramids of Central America, it would surprise you what they have found. By the same token, can you provide archealogical proof that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire from the sky? Or that Lot's wife actually turned into a pillar of salt? Or the whole Samson story? If you like, you can start a new thread on that subject. Now, .

[prisonchaplain]

Has anyone else read "How wide the Divide?" It is by far the best book to understand the differences (and similarities) between Evangelicals and Latter-day Saints. Both men are consumate scholars of impeicible credentials. Each topic is divided into three parts, the Evangelical view, the LDS view, and the common view (co-written by both authors). In it, I discovered that both views on all of these so-called controversies are actually very similar if not the same. PC and AJ, I would particularly love to hear your opinion of the book (assuming you have or will read it) as you are the Evangelcial representatives here.

Over two years ago I read it, on the recommendation of SNOW. This book covers about 90% of the basic evangelical-LDS "basic doctrine," material. When I say that, I mean 90% of the important stuff--oh there are so many tidbits we could chew on if importance were not a concern. I heartily recommend the book, and have given it to evangelical and LDS alike at the prison. I tell evangelicals it's on christianbooks.com, and I tell LDS it's at deseretbooks. Ironcally, it's cheapest at good ole secular amazon. LOL

[prisonchaplain]

BTW, Justice has repeatedly asked if baptism is a requirement of salvation (exaltation, glorification). I'll bite. For us evangelicals who embrace "believer's baptism," the answer's no. It's important. Jesus commands us to follow him, and he did it. Not sure how a Christian can justify being an adult believer for more than a few months, and not having been baptized. However, failure to be baptized, in and of itself, would not keep a soul from Heaven.

Unless AJ is Church of Christ, Catholic or Lutheran (highly doubtful, imho), he likely agrees with me...though...of course...I cannot speak for him with certainty.

[JohnnyRudick]

BTW, Justice has repeatedly asked if baptism is a requirement of salvation (exaltation, glorification). I'll bite. For us evangelicals who embrace "believer's baptism," the answer's no. It's important. Jesus commands us to follow him, and he did it. Not sure how a Christian can justify being an adult believer for more than a few months, and not having been baptized. However, failure to be baptized, in and of itself, would not keep a soul from Heaven.

Unless AJ is Church of Christ, Catholic or Lutheran (highly doubtful, imho), he likely agrees with me...though...of course...I cannot speak for him with certainty.

Actually it may surprise you to learn that I agree with much of that.

Maybe even for some of the same reasons;)

I have gone over this before on other threads about that once you are "Saved" it is your duty to seek out the closest to what the Spirit revels to you is the Church congregation God would want you to join and join with it.

In order to do that the Lord has shone to us that you testify to that congrigation that you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Saviour by going down into the Waters of Baptism in their presence and sealing that testamony.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that,

while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we

shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to

God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we

shall be saved by his life.

Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our

Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the

world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for

that all have sinned:

Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is

not imputed when there is no law.

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even

over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's

transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift.

For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the

grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus

Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Romans 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the

gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free

gift is of many offences unto justification.

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;

much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift

of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came

upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one

the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made

sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might

abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might

grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus

Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin,

that grace may abound?

Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live

any longer therein?

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized

into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into

death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the

glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of

life.

Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness

of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his

resurrection:

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with

him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we

should not serve sin.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we

shall also live with him:

Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth

no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Romans 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in

that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

We now seal this commitment with a conformation of this testimony and a blessing of the Gift of the Holy Ghost by those in authority in that congregation to luve as we have testified we will because of our being "Saved":)

Now what happens if you do not seek out a congregation after being "Saved"?

And what if you do not testify to that congregation as the Lord has prescribed we should testify of our being "Saved"?

Does that not only show the quality of our salvation?

Our desire to live as the Lord would have us to live?

of what kind of metal we are works made of?

Or even if it is metal at all and may be wood, hay or stubble that may be burned up at the Judgment Seat of Christ and leave us with nothing but being "Saved"?

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye

are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given

unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and

another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he

buildeth thereupon.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than

that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation

gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for

the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire;

and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built

thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall

suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God,

and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him

shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye

are.

1 Corinthians 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among

you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that

he may be wise.

1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness

with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own

craftiness.

1 Corinthians 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of

the wise, that they are vain.

1 Corinthians 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all

things are your's;

1 Corinthians 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the

world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come;

all are your's;

1 Corinthians 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

1 Corinthians 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the

ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

1 Corinthians 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a

man be found faithful.

Just a thought;)

Bro. Rudick

[rameumptom]

Actually, Peter (Acts 2), in responding to those who accused the disciples of early-morning drunkeness (they were speaking in tongues) says, "THIS is THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel. So, we believe the Day of Pentecost ushered in the era Joel spoke of.

I did find a site that did my work for me.

http://www.beebefirstassembly.com/files/Sermons%20-%20Series/My%20Helper%20-%20The%20Holy%20Spirit/My%20Helper%2051-The%20Gift%20Of%20Prophecy.pdf

http://www.beebefirstassembly.com/files/Sermons%20-%20Series/My%20Helper%20-%20The%20Holy%20Spirit/My%20Helper%2052-The%20Gift%20Of%20Tongues%20And%20Interpretation.pdf

We believe that Joel's prophecy was partially fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, as the sun did not darken, etc. at that time. We believe the fulfillment of the entire prophecy is yet in the future. But we do believe that today people are again dreaming dreams and seeing visions, according to the light and truth they are willing to receive. This explains why some Christians never have such experiences: they do not believe in them, nor desire to seek them.

[beefche]

BTW, Justice has repeatedly asked if baptism is a requirement of salvation (exaltation, glorification). I'll bite. For us evangelicals who embrace "believer's baptism," the answer's no. It's important. Jesus commands us to follow him, and he did it. Not sure how a Christian can justify being an adult believer for more than a few months, and not having been baptized. However, failure to be baptized, in and of itself, would not keep a soul from Heaven.

Unless AJ is Church of Christ, Catholic or Lutheran (highly doubtful, imho), he likely agrees with me...though...of course...I cannot speak for him with certainty.

Thank you PC. I always appreciate your insight into non-LDS faith and beliefs. I do have another question, if ya don't mind. The book of Matthew describes Jesus being baptized.

Matthew 3:13-14:

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all drighteousness. Then he suffered him.

Why was Jesus baptized? Why would He require that John baptize Him when John was so obviously reluctant to baptize Him?

I've always been curious about why some Christian religions do not baptize people. LDS beliefs state that Jesus was our example in all and showed the necessity of baptism (you can refer to the Book of Mormon scripture 2 Nephi 31:5-14 found here 2 Nephi 31 )

[rameumptom]

If this were a contradiction, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Jesus and James never said our works apart from God’s grace and our faith would save us. James said, "Show me your faith without works, and I'll show my faith by my works" If someone just says they have faith and God's grace and there are no works, that means they really don't have faith. That is all he was trying to say.

Ram: So you are going counter to many traditional Christian churches, especially the evangelicals on this. I personally agree with your view, but they do not. In many Christian faiths, including some Methodists and Baptists, all one needs do is say, "I believe" and they are saved. They fully believe that Paul means all works of any and every kind. Even Martin Luther felt that a believer could commit grievous sins and would still be saved through grace.

Of course, Calvinists would state that it is by irresistible grace that we are saved, so works of any kind are meaningless. So, there are more traditional Christians that would disagree with you.

My question is: are they then not Christians? Will they not be saved, because their faith is dead, having no works?

LDS believe that all are saved through faith. Because of modern revelation, we know that in God's kingdom there are many mansions or levels of heaven and salvation. It is through works we demonstrate the level of our faith, and from that we gain our level of heaven/reward.

Revelation 20: 12 And I saw the adead, small and great, bstand before God; and the cbooks were opened: and another book was opened, which is the dbook of life: and the dead were ejudged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their fworks.

IOW, the Book of Life is first checked to see if we are in it. The requirement for being in it is to accept Jesus as our Savior. Simple faith.

THEN, we are judged from the other books (books on earth and in heaven recording us, I suppose), according to our earthly works. This will determine the level of our faith and righteousness, and will determine which heaven we receive as our glory.

[bytor2112]

But I do have another question to take my break with in 3 Nephi 8:9,10,14 and 9:4,5,6,8 where cities and inhabitants were down under the waters. Are there archeological evidence for these? if not, Why?

This is a pretty interesting site.and this is a very good one as well.

[rameumptom]

You see all of what us Christians (Non-Mormons) believe and churches we attend as an abomination to the Lord, but you don’t come out with it; yet deep in your heart it is what you believe. I am one of the few that come out with it calling a spade a spade by letting you know that is what you believe and that is deception. I would rather you come out with it explicitly instead of hating me for being truthful to you. I say hate because there is no love in name calling and judging someone whose intentions are to bring you the only truth I know. It is my job and mission in life to do what I do. So let God now judge between us, and those who share your sentiments. There have been some Mormons on this thread that have shown love toward me. Nevertheless, I wish you to be blessed with the knowledge of truth even as I pray for myself in this. I will post again in the near future Lord willing.

Actually, no. I am not judging your faith. You came to this LDS site and began asking questions and making assumptions about OUR faith. I have not made any assumptions nor judgments on yours. I have only sought to answer your questions to the best of my ability.

I believe you will be saved in Christ. You believe, if I read you right, that I will burn eternally in hell. Who is judging whom?

A discussion list's purpose is to discuss questions and ideas. You have not done this. Rather you have preached to us, throwing out old anti-Mormon concepts that have long been answered if you would just bother doing some reading at some of the sites I previously posted.

Prison Chaplain has long been on this list. He is Pentecostal. He is also a moderator on an LDS website! Why? Because while he does not agree with all we believe, he is friendly and believes we are also Christian. He shows us and the site respect, and he gets it back in spades. We are benefited by his presence here.

I've been on the Internet since 1986, before most people even knew what an internet was. I've been on a variety of lists in that time. I've seen anti-LDS attacks in the past, and I've seen sincere investigators ask their questions. There is a pattern for both. You have shown yourself to not be a sincere investigator. You've demanded answers, and then ignored them when you received them. You've then jumped to other questions, partially in order to evade our questions back to you. Such actions have long been done on chat groups and email lists (I've seen them on political and religious groups especially). So long have people been doing it that there is a name given to such people: trolls.

You, sir, are a troll. Please come back when you are ready to be sincere and truly part of the group (like Prison Chaplain). But don't come back until then, because we don't need any trolls around here.

[the Ogre]

You, sir, are a troll. Please come back when you are ready to be sincere and truly part of the group (like Prison Chaplain). But don't come back until then, because we don't need any trolls around here.

You know, Ogres shower and use deodorant before going into public. I think we'll have to be subtle and get someone to gift some to our troll friend here.

[rameumptom]

But I do have another question to take my break with in 3 Nephi 8:9,10,14 and 9:4,5,6,8 where cities and inhabitants were down under the waters. Are there archeological evidence for these? if not, Why?

Since we don't know exactly where the Nephites were, we cannot be definite. However, cities have been found under water in various places around the world, including Mesoamerica. Lago Atitlan and Lago Amatitlan, both in Guatemala, are known to have underwater cities. For decades, many LDS scholars believe that the Nephites were centered in Guatemala, and the underwater cities in the two lakes were found only recently.

[rameumptom]

I've always been curious about why some Christian religions do not baptize people. LDS beliefs state that Jesus was our example in all and showed the necessity of baptism (you can refer to the Book of Mormon scripture 2 Nephi 31:5-14 found here 2 Nephi 31 )

Baptism is not necessary to be saved. It is necessary for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom of heaven. A person can be saved in heaven (Telestial or Terrestrial) without baptism.

[JohnnyRudick]

Thank you PC. I always appreciate your insight into non-LDS faith and beliefs. I do have another question, if ya don't mind. The book of Matthew describes Jesus being baptized.

Matthew 3:13-14:

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all drighteousness. Then he suffered him.

Why was Jesus baptized? Why would He require that John baptize Him when John was so obviously reluctant to baptize Him?

I've always been curious about why some Christian religions do not baptize people. LDS beliefs state that Jesus was our example in all and showed the necessity of baptism (you can refer to the Book of Mormon scripture 2 Nephi 31:5-14 found here 2 Nephi 31 )

As usual, speaking from memory:confused: so I will miss something for sure but I do try to contribute when I can;)

Jesus came to John as John was the last in the line of authority of the Priests of Aaron.

John had authority and passed that authority pedigree on to Jesus.

Yeah, I know.

But the lineage of all things pertaining to the flesh still had to be satisfied.

I am struggling here to get this info out just hang in there with me. OK?

Luke 1:5 Inspired Version

There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia; and his wife being of the daughters of Aaron, and her name Elizabeth,

6 Were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless;

7 And they had no child. Elizabeth was barren, and they were both well stricken in years.

8 And while he executed the priest's office before God, in the order of his priesthood,

9 According to the law, (his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord,)

10 The whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense.

11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord, standing on the right side of the altar of incense.

12 And when Zacharias saw the angel, he was troubled and fear fell upon him.

13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias, for thy prayer is heard, and thy wife Elizabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

14 Thou shalt have joy and gladness, and many shall rejoice at his birth;

15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God;

17 And he shall go before the Lord in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife is well stricken in years.

19 And the angel answering, said unto him, I am Gabriel, who stand in the presence of God, and am sent to speak unto thee, and to show thee these glad tidings.

20 And behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believedst not my words which shall be fulfilled in their season.

21 And the people waited for Zacharias, and marveled that he tarried so long in the temple.

22 And when he came out, he could not speak unto them; and they perceived that he had seen a vision in the temple; for he beckoned unto them, and remained speechless.

23 And as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house.

24 And after those days, his wife Elizabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,

25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on me, to take away my reproach from among men.

Luke 3 Inspired Version

1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene; Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests.

2 Now in this same year, the word of God came unto John, the son of Zacharias, in the wilderness.

3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

4 As it is written in the book of the prophet Esaias; and these are the words, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, and make his paths straight.

5 For behold, and lo, he shall come, as it is written in the book of the prophets, to take away the sins of the world, and to bring salvation unto the heathen nations, to gather together those who are lost, who are of the sheepfold of Israel;

6 Yea, even the dispersed and afflicted; and also to prepare the way, and make possible the preaching of the gospel unto the Gentiles;

7 And to be a light unto all who sit in darkness, unto the uttermost parts of the earth; to bring to pass the resurrection from the dead, and to ascend up on high, to dwell on the right hand of the Father,

8 Until the fullness of time, and the law and the testimony shall be sealed, and the keys of the kingdom shall be delivered up again unto the Father;

9 To administer justice unto all; to come down in judgment upon all, and to convince all the ungodly of their ungodly deeds, which they have committed; and all this in the day that he shall come;

10 For it is a day of power; yea, every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways made smooth;

11 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

12 Then said John to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, crying against them with a loud voice, saying, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

13 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, Abraham is our father; we have kept the commandments of God, and none can inherit the promises but the children of Abraham; for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

14 And now also, the axe is laid unto the root of the trees; every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be hewn down, and cast into the fire.

15 And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?

16 He answered and said unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.

17 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?

18 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed unto you.

19 For it is well known unto you, Theophilus, that after the manner of the Jews, and according to the custom of their law in receiving money into the treasury, that out of the abundance which was received, was appointed unto the poor, every man his portion;

20 And after this manner did the publicans also, wherefore John said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you.

21 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

22 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;

23 John answered, saying unto all, I indeed baptize you with water, but there cometh one mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose, he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire;

24 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

25 And many other things, in his exhortation, preached he unto the people.

26 But Herod, the tetrarch, being reproved of him for Herodias, his brother Philip's wife, and for all the evils which Herod had done;

27 Added yet this above all, that he shut up John in prison.

28 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also came unto John; and being baptized of him, and praying, the heaven was opened;

29 And the Holy Ghost descended, in bodily shape like a dove, upon him; and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased.

30 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, having lived with his father, being, as was supposed of the world, the son of Joseph, who was from the loins of Heli,

31 Who was from the loins of Matthat, who was the son of Levi, who was a descendant of Melchi, and of Janna, and of Joseph,

32 And of Mattathias, and of Amos, and of Naum, and of Esli, and of Nagge,

33 And of Maath, and of Mattathias, and of Semei, and of Joseph, and of Juda,

34 And of Joanna, and of Resa, and of Zorobabel, and of Salathiel, who was the son of Neri,

35 Who was a descendant of Melchi, and of Addi, and of Cosam, and of Elmodam, and of Er,

36 And of Jose, and of Eliezer, and of Joram, and of Matthat, and of Levi,

37 And of Simeon, and of Juda, and of Joseph, and of Jonan, and of Eliakim,

38 And of Melea, and of Menan, and of Mattatha, and of Nathan, and of David,

39 And of Jesse, and of Obed, and of Booz, and of Salmon, and of Naasson,

40 And of Aminadab, and of Aram, and of Esrom, and of Phares, and of Juda,

41 And of Jacob, and of Isaac, and of Abraham, and of Thara, and of Nachor,

42 And of Saruch, and of Ragau, and of Phalec, and of Heber, and of Sala,

43 And of Cainan, and of Arphaxad, and of Shem, and of Noah, and of Lamech,

44 And of Mathusala, and of Enoch, and of Jared, and of Maleleel, and of Cainan,

45 And of Enos, and of Seth, and of Adam, who was formed of God, and the first man upon the earth.

Bro. Rudick

[Carl62]

What really gets me is that you think you have something I don't and that I need.

Well, aren't you saying the exact same thing to us? It seems like with almost every answer you give, there is an "are you saved?" or something like that in with it. What is it you claim we don't have that YOU do? If you say it's Jesus, all you have to do is go back and re-read every single post on this entire LDS.net board from Mormons who speak of and profess their love and devotion to Him and I think you'll see that we have a definite hard-core faith, trust and belief in Jesus, yet you still continually question it. Why? Don't understand it.

[Just_A_Guy]

Baptism is not necessary to be saved. It is necessary for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom of heaven. A person can be saved in heaven (Telestial or Terrestrial) without baptism.

Do you have a source for this, Rameumptom? Thanks.

[the Ogre]

AJ:

You know what, I have asked you to show how Latter-day Saints deny grace. I don't want that anymore.

Justice wants you to discuss Baptism. I don't.

I have hectored you and poked fun at you. Why? Simple. You are clearly antagonistic. I'm fine with that. Antagonism might be my only redeemable quality. But you don't know what I want. I want you to think of the conversion of Nicodemus, a Pharisaic Rabbi, and focus on the positives. Basically: "That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. (1 Cor 2.5)" You are following in the predictable footsteps of other men. Show us the power of G-d that we don't know that you know we are missing.

Remember: We are Chr-stians. We believe in Grace. We believe in the atonement. We believe in salvation.

Do not focus on what you think is wrong about us! Focus on what we are missing! There is no way to be a good witness if you are constantly negative.

[Carl62]

Your view, also, of who Jesus is disturbs me greatly.

Umm, I don't know what kind of a view you think we have of Jesus, but the Jesus I clearly believe in is the One written about in the four gopsels. The One who spoke great and mystical parables and who gave the wonderful Sermon on the Mount. The One who raised the dead, healed the sick and cleansed the lepers. The One who didn't cast any judgements on even the greatest of sinners and gave forgiveness very warmly and openly. The One who died on the cross to atone for my sins and who arose the third day. THAT'S THE JESUS I BELIEVE IN!!! If this differs from anything else you think we believe, then you need to get your head out of the ridiculous anti-Mormon material. It's a waste of your mental and spirital well being. Edited May 28, 2009 by Carl62

[prisonchaplain]

Thank you PC. I always appreciate your insight into non-LDS faith and beliefs. I do have another question, if ya don't mind. The book of Matthew describes Jesus being baptized.

Matthew 3:13-14:

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all drighteousness. Then he suffered him.

Why was Jesus baptized? Why would He require that John baptize Him when John was so obviously reluctant to baptize Him?

I've always been curious about why some Christian religions do not baptize people. LDS beliefs state that Jesus was our example in all and showed the necessity of baptism (you can refer to the Book of Mormon scripture 2 Nephi 31:5-14 found here 2 Nephi 31 )

Jesus was baptized to show us the way. He endorsed John's baptism, and made it a sacrament of the church. So, yes it was important. However, we do not believe that Jesus' "fulfilling all righteousness," translates to mean that salvation comes through the waters of baptism. Rather, the converted soul (was Jesus not reconciled to God prior to his baptism?) enters the waters of baptism to testify of a sinful life buried and a God-infused life born.

BTW, I'm not aware of any Christian churches that do not baptize. All do, to my knowledge. Some baptize infants, and others adults and children above the age of accountability. Why individual Christians do not get baptized? IMHO, it's because they have unrepentent sin in their lives, and they know they need to be fully committed before being baptized.

[the Ogre]

. . . Why individual Christians do not get baptized? IMHO, it's because they have unrepentent sin in their lives, and they know they need to be fully committed before being baptized.

Either that or they're afraid of the water. I wonder how'd they feel about a jello baptism? Jello being such a big deal for Latter-day Saints, I wonder if its an alternative.

[JohnnyRudick]

Do you have a source for this, Rameumptom? Thanks.

I don't have one at this moment either but just to keep from rewriting what I have already written I believe this to be the case also.

Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ alone will get you into the two lower kingdoms but not the Celestial.

I too wish I could back that one up:confused:

But most Pauline type Christians will get just what they are expecting.

Bro. Rudick

[goofball]

Do you have a source for this, Rameumptom? Thanks.

I have found this

"We are not preaching a salvation for the inhabitants of the terrestrial or the telestial kingdoms. All of the ordinances of the gospel pertain to the celestial kingdom, and what the Lord will require by way of ordinances, if any, in the other kingdoms he has not revealed" (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:329).

as I have been preparing the lesson for Gospel Doctrine this week which is on the three kingdoms