Does LDS doctrine clash with the Bible?

[MikeUpton]

If I am not mistaken, what you describe as "remission of sins," sounds very much like what Nazarenes and Pentecostal Holiness call "sanctification." While the word means "holiness," some Christian groups (such as the two I mentioned) believe there is an added work of grace (after salvation). Some even call it baptism in the Holy Spirit. Others "sanctification." It's a divine Holy Ghost infused power against sinning. Interesting indeed.

We actually do view this process as sanctification. LDS.org - Ensign Article - Fire and the Holy Ghost

Edit: we use many terms in lds theology for this: baptism of fire and the holy ghost, sanctification, conversion, born again, a mighty change of heart, etc.

Edited May 30, 2009 by MikeUpton

[Hemidakota]

We actually do view this process as sanctification. LDS.org - Ensign Article - Fire and the Holy Ghost

Edit: we use many terms in lds theology for this: baptism of fire and the holy ghost, sanctification, conversion, born again, a mighty change of heart, etc.

We spoke about this in the past here on this site:

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/16041-how-do-you-sanctify-yourself.html#post291684

[rameumptom]

Do you have a source for this, Rameumptom? Thanks.

Yes, D&C 76. Just look at the requirements for the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms. No baptism mentioned.

Baptism is required as the gateway into the Celestial Kingdom.

[rameumptom]

Hemi, that is the Kingdom of God, not specifically the Celestial Kingdom. That's the trap many fall into.

Baptism is required to be saved from outer darkness. The Kingdom of God includes the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms, as they are kingdoms of glory.

There are other covenants that chart ones path to the Celestial Kingdom.

Nope. The Kingdom of God is the Lord's Church upon the earth. This is distinguished from the Kingdom of Heaven, which is, of course, in heaven. We are baptized to enter in as members of the Church, with the understanding that Faith in Christ, Repentance, Ordinances (Baptism) and the Gift of the Holy Ghost, bring us to God's heavenly kingdom.

[Hemidakota]

To enter the higher portion of that kingdom, one must be "converted, baptized, endowed, married for eternity, and finally sealed up unto eternal life."

[Justice]

Nope. The Kingdom of God is the Lord's Church upon the earth. This is distinguished from the Kingdom of Heaven, which is, of course, in heaven. We are baptized to enter in as members of the Church, with the understanding that Faith in Christ, Repentance, Ordinances (Baptism) and the Gift of the Holy Ghost, bring us to God's heavenly kingdom.

I reread it. I had it confused. Thank you.

I haven't studied D&C for quite a while, I've been in the BoM for years. Maybe it's time to expand my studies.

Edited May 30, 2009 by Justice

[pam]

Jesus actually told the thief he would be with him that day in "paradise."

I brought this up in another thread. According to Joseph Smith what Jesus said on the cross was actually mistranslated. Joseph Smith says what was said was "You will be with Him in the world of spirits." I'd have to find my reference for this again. Somewhere on lds.org.

[Hemidakota]

"I will say something about the spirits in prison. There has been much said by modern divines about the words of Jesus (when on the cross) to the thief, saying, "This day shalt thou be with me in paradise." King James' translators make it out to say paradise. But what is paradise? It is a modern word: it does not answer at all to the original word that Jesus made use of. Find the original of the word paradise. You may as easily find a needle in a haymow. Here is a chance for battle, ye learned men. There is nothing in the original word in Greek from which this was taken that signifies paradise; but it was—This day thou shalt be with me in the world of spirits: then I will teach you all about it and answer your inquiries. And Peter says he went and preached to the world of spirits (spirits in prison, 1 Peter, 3rd chap. 19th verse), so that they who would receive it could have it answered by proxy by those who live on the earth, etc." Joseph Smith Journal 1843-1844.

[Hemidakota]

I reread it. I had it confused. Thank you.

I haven't studied D&C for quite a while, I've been in the BoM for years. Maybe it's time to expand my studies.

Even I am at times still learning and corrected.

[Justice]

You know, it's interesting that the reason it was mistranslated, I believe, is because they thought "if the thief was going where Jesus went then it obviously had to be Paradise, right?" Why in the world would anyone think Jesus would go to Spirit Prison?

1 Peter 3:

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

But, they could have used this verse to assume Jesus did go to Prison and was telling the thief that He would see him there. I don't know why they chose Paradise when it appears in the Bible like He also went to Prison.

Whether you think it was mistranslated to Paradise or you think Jesus was saying He would see the man in the Spirit World, since this verse says Jesus preached to those in Prison, it could have easily been translated Prison as well, not knowing any better.

But, since we know, through modern revelation, that Jesus didn't actually go to Prison Himself, that He organized the preaching efforts and sent others into Prison to do the teaching, Spirit World is the best translation.

I think He was assuring the man there was life after death. I'm sure that was the foremost thought on the thief's mind.

Edit: Sorry, Hemi, I was making this post while you made yours. At least they agree. :)

Edited May 30, 2009 by Justice

[Snow]

You are correct the Bible doesn't say that. In Luke it says that when Christ and the thief were on the cross, Christ said to him..."today shalt thou be with me in Paradise." However, Joseph Smith says that is a mistranslation of the Bible and what he actually said was, today you will be with Him in the world of spirits.

The word was "paradeiswi" which is a Persian word meaning enclosed park or garden.

What gets me - and this happens over and over - is that aj4u the post knew the scripture (we know he has read it because he referenced it) but then he deliberately changed it - fabricated - to mean something very different to try and make his point.

One would think that when speaking of God one would at least pretend toward honesty.

[rameumptom]

You know, it's interesting that the reason it was mistranslated, I believe, is because they thought "if the thief was going where Jesus went then it obviously had to be Paradise, right?" Why in the world would anyone think Jesus would go to Spirit Prison?

:)

In D&C 138, we find that Jesus didn't personally go to spirit prison, but to Paradise. There he organized the missionary work in the spirit world.

[JohnnyRudick]

Nope. The Kingdom of God is the Lord's Church upon the earth. This is distinguished from the Kingdom of Heaven, which is, of course, in heaven. We are baptized to enter in as members of the Church, with the understanding that Faith in Christ, Repentance, Ordinances (Baptism) and the Gift of the Holy Ghost, bring us to God's heavenly kingdom.

Yup:)

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

You know, it's interesting that the reason it was mistranslated, I believe, is because they thought "if the thief was going where Jesus went then it obviously had to be Paradise, right?" Why in the world would anyone think Jesus would go to Spirit Prison?

1 Peter 3:

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

But, they could have used this verse to assume Jesus did go to Prison and was telling the thief that He would see him there. I don't know why they chose Paradise when it appears in the Bible like He also went to Prison.

Whether you think it was mistranslated to Paradise or you think Jesus was saying He would see the man in the Spirit World, since this verse says Jesus preached to those in Prison, it could have easily been translated Prison as well, not knowing any better.

But, since we know, through modern revelation, that Jesus didn't actually go to Prison Himself, that He organized the preaching efforts and sent others into Prison to do the teaching, Spirit World is the best translation.

I think He was assuring the man there was life after death. I'm sure that was the foremost thought on the thief's mind.

Edit: Sorry, Hemi, I was making this post while you made yours. At least they agree. :)

I am not feeling very well today or I would try to again go into this more.

I have on another thread somewhere:confused: but not sure which one it was.

You have to understand the makeup and position of "Hell" or "Sheol" before and after the Death Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

They were changed dramatically afterward from the way it was before.

And it was for a very specific reason.

The preaching of Spirits for the big one Jesus being for great organizer of this at His death and taking out them that were in Abraham's Bosom with him at His Resurrection.

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in

purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which

was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luke 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell

from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his

sores.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was

carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also

died, and was buried;

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments,

and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high,

he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he

also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended

up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,

and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell

shall not prevail against it.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the

just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to

death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the

spirits in prison;

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the

longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark

was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by

water.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also

now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but

the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection

of Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand

of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto

him.

1 Corinthians 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized

for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then

baptized for the dead?

Time for a nap;)

Bro. Rudick

Edited May 30, 2009 by JohnnyRudick
I remembered;)

[Snow]

You know, it's interesting that the reason it was mistranslated, I believe, is because they thought "if the thief was going where Jesus went then it obviously had to be Paradise, right?" Why in the world would anyone think Jesus would go to Spirit Prison?

That's in fact where Jesus and the thief did go - paradise. That is the word that was used by the author of Luke. The problem is that the original poster on this thread changed "paradise" to be "eternal life" which is false.

We know in this case that "paradise" cannot be heaven where God the Father dwell because later Christ says to touch Him not because he had not yet ascended to his Father. Christ had been to paradise but not yet to heaven.

[the Ogre]

That's in fact where Jesus and the thief did go - paradise. That is the word that was used by the author of Luke. The problem is that the original poster on this thread changed "paradise" to be "eternal life" which is false.

Yeah, that's why I asked AJ to clarify what translation he is using. The NIV says: " . . . I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise. (Luke 23.43 NIV)" The JST is silent and so does not say "eternal life." I like how he says we contradict the bible, when he seems to do so on this thread.

[Palerider]

Yeah, that's why I asked AJ to clarify what translation he is using. The NIV says: " . . . I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise. (Luke 23.43 NIV)" The JST is silent and so does not say "eternal life." I like how he says we contradict the bible, when he seems to do so on this thread.

hey...come on....AJ is taking a much needed rest....he is tired and studying....

[the Ogre]

hey...come on....AJ is taking a much needed rest....he is tired and studying....

Sorry. As an insomniac, I often do not have sympathy for those who can sleep:taz:. Wake up and get on the stick . . . blah blah blah shoulder to the wheel and all that.

[Justice]

In D&C 138, we find that Jesus didn't personally go to spirit prison, but to Paradise. There he organized the missionary work in the spirit world.

Yes, Ram and Snow, I mentioned that in my post. Maybe you didn't read it far enough?

[JohnnyRudick]

Yeah, that's why I asked AJ to clarify what translation he is using. The NIV says: " . . . I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise. (Luke 23.43 NIV)" The JST is silent and so does not say "eternal life." I like how he says we contradict the bible, when he seems to do so on this thread.

He is one of those who is so worried about our adding to and taking away from and then he comes out and is quoting the NIV favorably?

Sounds about right:)

Bro. Rudick

[aj4u]

Even just this comment is telling. Have you ever sat and pondered on just these words?

PC, if Jesus "showed us the way" by doing something, it stands to reason He wants everyone to do it. Together with a few statements in the Bible, it is clear baptism is a part of what Jesus showed and told us to do.

There is only one way people reason their way out of it, and that is because they don't understand other aspects of baptism, mainly how does He allow for those who did not have the chance.

Even still, there is no logical way to arrive at the conclusion "you don't have to be baptized."

1) Jesus was baptized

2) Jesus said to be baptized

If we have difficulties undetrstanding how this applies to all, instead of trying to solve the problem for Him, we should follow Him ourselves and let Him worry about the rest. To teach people we don't have to follow His example or do what He said just passes all logic and reason to me.

You seem very intelligent to me. So, how did you get there from here? There aren't any scriptures that even imply we don't have to be baptized. It's just man's attempt to explain other things they can't grasp otherwise.

But, He DID make provisions for those who did not have the chance to be baptized. It's even talked about in the Bible. It's just not clear enough for all to see because it was very sacred, and they didn't talk about it openly.

As I have mentioned, If one is not born again, baptism means nothing. Jesus said go into all the world and baptize in the Name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit, He didn't say put your faith in baptism or any works. The outward show of baptism means nothing if there isn't an inward change. That is the whole point. It is like one saying their marriage vows with no commitment with no inward change or intent to live in Christ. The focus shouldn't be on baptism (works) it should be on faith in Christ. That is what Paul contends as well. Baptism comes after one believes and accepts the Lord by faith, but teaching people to trust in baptism as the means to a correct relationship with God have grossly missed the mark and don’t really understand the gospel.

[prospectmom]

The outward show of baptism means nothing if there isn't an inward change

If there wasn't a profound inward change no one would get baptized , for us it is the next step..... You got to belive have faith to be baptized....

[rockwoodchev]

Hi everyone,

I was involved in this thread at the very beginning, but have been absent for awhile. I wanted to hi-jack this with just a slight twist and possibly open up a different line of thought.

I was preparing a seminary lesson last week and ran into another example where IMHO, we as LDS are using a portion of the Bible to prove our point while at the same time skipping over other parts. We tend to pick and choose our Bible quotes.

I'm teaching Revelations 14. Here is how it reads for some applicable verses. I'm including all verses in chapter 14 that deal with angels.

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendant up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever received the mark of his name.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

So... We have a total of 6 angels doing various things here.

1. Fly in the heavens to preach the gospel

2. Warn that Babylon has fallen

3. Warn against following the beast

4. Come out of temple crying in a loud voice

5. Come out of temple with a sickle

6. Come out of the alter.

Total of 6 angels and the chapter has a bunch of other stuff as well that is really cool, including some good stuff about the 144,000.

Anyway... The lesson material just takes the first angel and declares that this is clearly Moroni and this is why Moroni sits atop almost all the temples we have around the world. John clearly testified that the Gospel would come forth via Moroni.

Here is the lesson material.

Revelation 14:6–7 (Scripture Mastery). The gospel was restored in the last days through God’s angels to prepare the inhabitants of the earth for the coming of the Lord. (15–20 minutes)

Show students a picture of a temple, preferably one in your area, with an angel Moroni statue. Read Revelation 14:6–7 and ask: Who do you think the angel spoken of in these verses is? Point to the statue in the picture, and ask: Why do you think the angel Moroni is placed on the top of many of our temples?

Have a student read the following statement by President Gordon B. Hinckley:

“John the Revelator ‘saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people’ ( Revelation 14:6 ). That angel has come. His name is Moroni. His is a voice speaking from the dust, bringing another witness of the living reality of the Lord Jesus Christ” (in Conference Report, Sept.–Oct. 1995, 93; or Ensign, Nov. 1995, 70 ).

Show students the picture Moroni Appears to Joseph Smith in His Room (Joseph Smith History 1:29–47) (item no. 62492) . Recount the story of Moroni’s visits from Joseph Smith—History 1:29–34 , and then discuss the following questions:

* What was Moroni to bring to the earth? (see D&C 27:5 ; 133:36–37 ).

* What instruments did the Lord prepare that would help Joseph Smith fulfill this mission? (The Urim and Thummim; see D&C 20:8–10 ; Joseph Smith—History 1:35 .)

* Why is it important that the message of the gospel be delivered? (The hour of God’s judgment has come; see D&C 133:38–40 .)

* How does the gospel prepare people for the judgments of God that will take place before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ?

* In what way did Moroni help to save the world from destruction?

* What can we do today to help fulfill the mission that Moroni began?

Explain that the gospel must be preached “to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people” ( Revelation 14:6 ). Ask:

* Where have your friends and family members preached the gospel? (List places and languages on the board.)

* Has the gospel been preached in every tongue and in every nation?

Have a student read the following statement by President Hinckley:

“We have not as yet carried the gospel to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. But we have made great strides. We have gone wherever we are permitted to go. God is at the helm, and doors will be opened by His power according to His divine will. Of that I am confident. Of that I am certain” (in Conference Report, Sept.–Oct. 1995, 93; or Ensign , Nov. 1995, 70–71 ).

Encourage students to remember the meaning of the statue of the angel Moroni and to prepare themselves to fill missions when the time comes.

The only other portion that is talked about in chapter 14 is a small piece that talks about resting from our labors following obtaining our reward which takes verses 8-14 as the text.

I raised this with my wife during my prep time. She was a bit shocked at this as well. Her first reaction was "What about the poor other 5 angels??? Don't we care about them or what they did?" I thought it was a great reaction.

IMHO, this is once again a case where LDS teachings do exactly what we claim others do, which we don't. That is of taking small pieces of the NT and bending them to our beliefs, or taking a section of out context.

What caught me off guard was my reaction. I would expect that by this point that these things would no longer get me upset. I was really upset at this and it caused me some anger and angst.

Anyway... Thought I'd share.

[Bluejay]

Hi, Rockwoodchev.

We tend to pick and choose our Bible quotes.

Agreed. With the rampant inconsistencies between different parts of the Bible, you can't not cherry-pick, so there's no use pretending that we don't.

The only difference between any two Christian churches is which scriptural quotations they feel are more important than others.

-----

IMHO, this is once again a case where LDS teachings do exactly what we claim others do, which we don't. That is of taking small pieces of the NT and bending them to our beliefs, or taking a section of out context.

I'm confused: what exactly is being bent or taken out of context?

Nothing is being misrepresented: the lesson is simply not mentioning the other five angels.

There could be any number of reasons why they weren't mentioned:

• Maybe we don't know who the other five angels are.
• Maybe the other five angels haven't come yet.
• Maybe the other five angels are like Heavenly Mother: their names need to be protected for some reason
• Maybe their duties aren't as relevant to the intended topic of the lesson.
• Maybe the Church had to choose only one to mention because of time issues (as a teacher, you should know that 45 minutes isn't very long for a lesson ).
• Maybe the Church doesn't want teachers to get into the confusing details in Sunday School, so they only mention the simplest and most familiar stuff, like Moroni.
• Maybe the Church only wants to present the information that is most relevant to the class's testimony in the LDS Church.

I personally don't think this scripture has been bent, cherry-picked, taken out of context or inappropriately cropped at all.

[Islander]

As I have mentioned, If one is not born again, baptism means nothing. Jesus said go into all the world and baptize in the Name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit, He didn't say put your faith in baptism or any works. The outward show of baptism means nothing if there isn't an inward change. That is the whole point. It is like one saying their marriage vows with no commitment with no inward change or intent to live in Christ. The focus shouldn't be on baptism (works) it should be on faith in Christ. That is what Paul contends as well. Baptism comes after one believes and accepts the Lord by faith, but teaching people to trust in baptism as the means to a correct relationship with God have grossly missed the mark and don’t really understand the gospel.

There s no argument there. The process has been outlined for two millennia:

1. One must hear the word by the mouth of of His servants.

2. Believe in the word as the Holy Spirit will testify that it is a true word.

3. Repent and turn away from sin and desire the remission of such sins.

4. Receive baptism in faith for the remission of such sins by those in authority.

5. Receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by exhortation of those in authority.

What we do later as disciples of Christ is evidence of our faith. It is our faith that leads us to love our neighbor, share the Gospel, our substance and our very lives in the service of others for that way we are in the service of our God. Our fath is in Christ, baptism is part of the way by which we begin to prepare ourselves to follow on His footsteps.

"And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins. " 2 Nephi 25:26 BoM