Second chance at repentance?

[pam]

This conversation got started on another thread that we kind of hijacked but I think it's a good discussion.

Do we get a second chance at repentance after death if we were baptized and endowed while on earth but fall away or live a life not worthy of the celestial kingdom? If so..does that give us a second chance at the celestial kingdom?

Your thoughts?

Edited June 4, 2009 by pam

[deseretgov]

Here's my post from the other thread:

I think we kind of are saying the same thing. The way I usually express it is that I believe everyone will have the chance to accept or reject the gospel at a time that is best for them. That is what I consider "the chance." If someone who have made all the temple covenants and falls away but still hasn't had "their chance," I believe they will get that chance even though they had already had the gospel in their lives earlier.

If someone accepts or rejects the gospel when they get their chance it is up to them. What is important is that everyone has that "perfect opportunity."

[pam]

But if someone made all the temple covenants here on earth..wouldn't they already have accepted?

[pam]

Also isn't that why new members have a year waiting period? So they understand the covenants they are making and are aware of the consequences in breaking those covenants?

[FunkyTown]

Hi Pam,

Here's the problem: In this world, we do not have a perfect knowledge of what our consequences will bring. I certainly don't.

A man who is a workaholic, taking one good (Providing for his family) and ignoring the other (Raising his family) is not living up to his temple covenants. Will he have a chance to repent?

A man who loses his faith because his son is taken from him in an accident and is angry at God - He didn't have a perfect knowledge of why that is. Will he have a chance to repent?

Ultimately, the only answer I can give is 'I don't know'. I believe and have faith in God as being fair and just. He'll know if someone made a conscious decision to turn away or if he was simply overwhelmed by the world. "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." - It's a truism today just as sure as it was in the time of the apostles. Sometimes, we just don't have the strength to do what we need to.

Frankly, I'm glad I'm not judge. :) Too many things, with eternal welfare on the line.

[pam]

Let me throw it out another way then. Someone who has knowledge here on earth about the gospel. Has been baptized, been endowed...If knowing there might possibly be a second chance at repentance decides to live their live the way they want thinking...no problem I have a second chance....

I guess what I'm trying to get clear in my mind..Does everyone get a second chance at repentance even knowing what we know?

[pam]

Please don't misunderstand..I'm not trying to play devil's advocate or anything....just trying to sort out some thoughts in my head and gain more of an understanding.

[pam]

He'll know if someone made a conscious decision to turn away or if he was simply overwhelmed by the world. "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." - It's a truism today just as sure as it was in the time of the apostles. Sometimes, we just don't have the strength to do what we need to.

I think this answered a lot of my questions. I agree that Heavenly Father will take into consideration what is in our hearts. So many factors HE will have to consider.

It was just the way something was worded on another thread that has me going on about this. The way it was worded had me questioning the whole thing.

[Justice]

I don't think it's recorded how many chances we will get, and when we reach a certain number we're all out of chances. I think the chance is given until a certain time, perhaps judgement. I think God will accept a repentant heart until it's too late. The scriptures do speak of a time when it will be too late, and it is often referred to as the "night" like when Christ was speaking in 3 Nephi, in chapter 27 verse 33. I think it's allegorical in some ways, but perhaps it might be just speaking about when one dies.

It's clear that repentance is something God has made much easier for us while in the flesh. Our bodies are designed to focus and concentrate on one thing at a time. It's harder to get distracted that way. Even still, it's amazing how often we still do.

[robspectre]

I know many may say I am way off using this source..... BRM's Mormon Doctrine "Second Chance Theory" will answer the question. I think its pretty accurate, but I understand its not "OFFICIAL" doctrine of the LDS faith.

[Hemidakota]

What we gleaned and repented from this life is where we are placed in the next realm. For others, who have the same opportunity will have to pay for it through a 'longer delay' until they reached that maturity to be counted.

Now, I truly marvel over Elder McConkie passion for his diligence in the scriptural writings but he was wrong on a few accounts. Joseph I do believe was privy to more than what was recorded in the D&C or the Pearl of Great Price. Some of which, the church as a whole is not ready for it. However, we will learn more about progression in the kingdoms that was not articulated or written for our day, in the years to come. We need to remember how merciful and loving GOD and the Savior are to HIS children in given them every opportunity. :)

[bytor2112]

Elder McConkie may have erred on occasion as all men do including Prophets, but he is probably the most oft quoted GA and as an Apostle was often speaking on behalf of the First Presidency.

Heresy three: There are those who say that temple marriage assures us of an eventual exaltation. Some have supposed that couples married in the temple who commit all manner of sin, and who then pay the penalty, will gain their exaltation eventually.

This notion is contrary to the whole system and plan that the Lord has ordained, a system under which we are privileged to work out our salvation with fear and trembling before him. If we believe and obey, if we enter the waters of baptism and make solemn covenants with the Lord to keep his commandments, we thereby get on a strait and narrow path that leads from the gate of repentance and baptism to a reward that is called eternal life. And if we traverse the length of the path going upward and forward and onward, keeping the commandments, loving the Lord, and doing all that we ought to do, eventually we will be inheritors of that reward.

And in exactly and precisely the same sense, celestial marriage is a gate that puts us on a path leading to exaltation in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is in that highest realm of glory and dignity and honor hereafter that the family unit continues. Those who inherit a place in the highest heaven receive the reward that is named eternal life. Baptism is a gate; celestial marriage is a gate. When we get on the paths of which I speak, we are then obligated to keep the commandments. My suggestion in this field is that you go to the temple and listen to a ceremony of celestial marriage, paying particular and especial attention to the words, and learn what the promises are that are given. And you will learn that all of the promises given are conditioned upon subsequent compliance with all of the terms and conditions of that order of matrimony.

Heresy four: There are those who believe that the doctrine of salvation for the dead offers men a second chance for salvation.

I knew a man, now deceased, not a member of the Church, who was a degenerate old reprobate who found pleasure, as he supposed, in living after the manner of the world. A cigarette dangled from his lips, alcohol stretched his breath, mind profane and bawdy stories defiled his lips. His moral status left much to be desired.

His wife was a member of the Church, as faithful as she could be under the circumstances. One day she said to him, "You know the Church is true; why won't you be baptized?" He replied,

"Of course I know the Church is true, but I have no intention of changing my habits in order to join it. I prefer to live the way I do. But that doesn't worry me in the slightest. I know that as soon as I die, you will have someone go to the temple and do the work for me and everything will come out all right in the end anyway."

He died and she had the work done in the temple. We do not sit in judgment and deny vicarious ordinances to people. But what will it profit him?

There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation. This life is the time and the day of our probation. After this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. For those who do not have an opportunity to believe and obey the holy word in this life, the first chance to gain salvation will come in the spirit world. If those who hear the word for the first time in the realms ahead are the kind of people who would have accepted the gospel here, had the opportunity been afforded them, they will accept it there. Salvation for the dead is for those whose first chance to gain salvation is in the spirit world. in the revelation recently added to our canon of holy writ these words are found:

Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom; For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. [D&C 137:7-9]

There is no other promise of salvation than the one recited in that revelation. Those who reject the gospel in this life and then receive it in the spirit world go not to the celestial, but to the terrestrial kingdom.

Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.

This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say,

"God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?"

It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.

The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies-some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.

Of those in the telestial world it is written:

"And they shall be servants of the Most High, but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end" (D&C 76:112).

Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it the revelation says:

Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all etemity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. [D&C 132:16-17]

They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere.

[pam]

There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation. This life is the time and the day of our probation. After this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. For those who do not have an opportunity to believe and obey the holy word in this life, the first chance to gain salvation will come in the spirit world. If those who hear the word for the first time in the realms ahead are the kind of people who would have accepted the gospel here, had the opportunity been afforded them, they will accept it there. Salvation for the dead is for those whose first chance to gain salvation is in the spirit world. in the revelation recently added to our canon of holy writ these words are found:

That is exactly the way I have understood it all my life. The chance is here on earth for those of us that have learned about and accepted the gospel and have gone through the ordinance of baptism.

[Hemidakota]

Let me rephrase the statement, not always representing the First Presidency. I can understand his first-hand learning under his father-in-law, President Joseph Fielding Smith but doesn't mean his remarks were from the Lord or perhaps, given by first source of seeing it for himself. President David O. McKay, including President Kimball corrected a few statements he made and quoted in the MD.

[hordak]

Hope for Parents of Wayward Children,” Ensign, Sep 2002, 11

Joseph Smith

(1805–44)

First President of the Church

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught a more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God” (Orson F. Whitney, in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, 110).

Brigham Young

(1801–77)

Second President of the Church

“Let the father and mother, who are members of this Church and Kingdom, take a righteous course, and strive with all their might never to do a wrong, but to do good all their lives; if they have one child or one hundred children, if they conduct themselves towards them as they should, binding them to the Lord by their faith and prayers, I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang” (quoted in Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:90–91).

Lorenzo Snow

(1814–1901)

Fifth President of the Church

“If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save our posterity” (in Collected Discourses, comp. Brian H. Stuy, 5 vols. [1987–92], 3:364).

Boyd K. Packer

Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

“The measure of our success as parents … will not rest solely on how our children turn out. That judgment would be just only if we could raise our families in a perfectly moral environment, and that now is not possible.

“It is not uncommon for responsible parents to lose one of their children, for a time, to influences over which they have no control. They agonize over rebellious sons or daughters. They are puzzled over why they are so helpless when they have tried so hard to do what they should.

“It is my conviction that those wicked influences one day will be overruled. …

“We cannot overemphasize the value of temple marriage, the binding ties of the sealing ordinance, and the standards of worthiness required of them. When parents keep the covenants they have made at the altar of the temple, their children will be forever bound to them” (“Our Moral Environment,” Ensign, May 1992, 68).

I don't know about "regular folks" but it seems that sealed children will get a second chance, even in the next life. (Provided the parents keep the course.)

[Hemidakota]

You are correct... this came to me as first source vice a written word.

Also, as I counsel those who failed in there sealing marriage [calling and election made sure], where one breaks the covenants, according to Elder McConkie they will not be able to receive the Celestial Glory. That is not correct. President Kimball corrected this statement made it plain, those who are called and sealed in the temple will have every opportunity to repent and be cleansed by Lord. Though, the process is long and harsh but well worth it in saving the family and the person's salvation.

[Tough Grits]

Pam, we have to remember that we will be judged on what we think, say, do, AND the intents of our hearts.

There is a HUGE difference between being human and making mistakes, and intentionally mocking Heavenly Father and the very serious covenants made at baptism and in the Temple.

Too many things factor into our personal judgement. I tend to believe along the lines of what FunkyTown said, "I believe and have faith in God as being fair and just."

Death is an essential part of Heavenly Father's plan of salvation (see 2 Nephi 9:6). In order to become like our Eternal Father, we must experience death and later receive perfect, resurrected bodies.

When the physical body dies, the spirit continues to live. In the spirit world, the spirits of the righteous "are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow" (Alma 40:12). A place called spirit prison is reserved for "those who [have] died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets" (D&C 138:32). The spirits in prison are "taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, and all other principles of the gospel that [are] necessary for them to know" (D&C 138:33–34). If they accept the principles of the gospel, repent of their sins, and accept ordinances performed in their behalf in temples, they will be welcomed into paradise.

Because of the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, physical death is only temporary: "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Corinthians 15:22). Everyone will be resurrected, meaning that every person's spirit will be reunited with his or her body—"restored to their proper and perfect frame" and no longer subject to death (Alma 40:23; see also Alma 11:44–45).

Notice that it says that repentant spirits will be welcomed into paradise, and that ALL shall be resurrected. It does not say what glory those spirits who left Spirit Prison for Spirit Paradise will eventually inherit. Again, it comes down to having faith in Heavenly Father and His judgements.

There are more scriptures, more talks, more lessons, and more information on this topic to be found...but it is exhaustive and personal. The answers are out there, not only for us to read, but for us to feel and know by the witness of the Holy Ghost.

Start with these scriptural references about the kingdoms of glory: 1 Corinthians 15:40–42; Revelation 20:12; Alma 11:42–45; 3 Nephi 27:14; D&C 88:20–39; 130:18–19

As Justice said, "I think God will accept a repentant heart until it's too late." I agree.

I hope and pray He does accept repentant hearts until it is too late, because I am sure I will need every spare second I can get! I have not felt the confirmation of a "free pass" to the Celestial Kingdom as of yet, and I am not holding my breath for it any time soon either!!!! I am too busy trying to do better and trying to be better, to worry about if I have made it yet.

Edited June 4, 2009 by Tough Grits
style, format, etc.

[Guest lalaonegin]

What we gleaned and repented from this life is where we are placed in the next realm. For others, who have the same opportunity will have to pay for it through a 'longer delay' until they reached that maturity to be counted.

Now, I truly marvel over Elder McConkie passion for his diligence in the scriptural writings but he was wrong on a few accounts. Joseph I do believe was privy to more than what was recorded in the D&C or the Pearl of Great Price. Some of which, the church as a whole is not ready for it. However, we will learn more about progression in the kingdoms that was not articulated or written for our day, in the years to come. We need to remember how merciful and loving GOD and the Savior are to HIS children in given them every opportunity. :)

Thanks Hemi, Elder McConkie was a great teacher whilst amongst us. I envy those who are learning the Gospel from him, even as we type.

NOW, before posting, let me state this for the record, what I'm posting is clearly under the banner of "Gospel Hobbying"

I recall as I read the OP several talks, lectures, classes at the Y where the subject of "Justice and Mercy" were discussed in some detail.

For the purposes of this post, I'll readily admit that I've not gone to my library to look this up in any of my reference books.

What I recall most about this is: We're offered Mercy in this realm, through the Atonement and Sacrifice of our Lord in the Garden and Gethsemine. It is here on this earth that we're given the opportunity to avail ourselves of this Mercy.

It is on the other side that "Justice" prevails. If we cross the veil without fully utilizing Christ's mercy, I recall learning that the Justcie extracted may allow for us to endure the same pain as did Christ on the Cross?

I'm not sure about others, but I'm a pain whimp. I think I want the Mercy here <VBG>

[pam]

I do know that any appetites and habits that we have on earth will continue with us to the next life making it much much harder to repent of those things.

An example that was given to me once by a Stake President was about smoking. We will still have that same appetite in the next life but will be like hell as there will be nothing to satisfy that craving.

[bytor2112]

Let me rephrase the statement, not always representing the First Presidency. I can understand his first-hand learning under his father-in-law, President Joseph Fielding Smith but doesn't mean his remarks were from the Lord or perhaps, given by first source of seeing it for himself. President David O. McKay, including President Kimball corrected a few statements he made and quoted in the MD.

Actually, the "tone" of some of Mormon Doctrine was softened and was done with the assistance of Spencer Kimball. The actual doctrinal content remained pretty much the same, some things were excluded that were deemed harsh or insensitive......regarding Catholic church, card playing, reading written talks, etc.

[foreverafter]

Though we all must repent in the next life if we don't here, that does not mean we can still earn Exaltation in the next life. If we didn't earn it here & were able to, cause we had the gospel but didn't study & apply it, then we missed our chance. If we repent here we get the rewards, if we repent in the next life we only get the pain without the rewards & the pain is 1000 times greater & longer, for some 1000 years of torment.

One prophet said that the thinking that we can lie alittle, cheat alittle, take advantage of our neighbor alittle, hurt our spouse alittle, commit adultery or porn alittle, etc. etc. & think we will just get a small punishment & still all get to the Cel. Kingdom, was the most satanic doctrine ever taught.

We do not get a second chance. This life is the time to prepare & earn the Kingdom we want to go to. I heard Elder Packer in person a few months ago say, as others have, "that we all know when we do wrong." We do not need a perfect knowledge of things to obey the commandments & choose the right. Though none of us will become perfect in this life, we must live the commandments that we know of to a great enough degree that we have the Spirit as our constant guide so we aren't deceived to do or support evil, as most people are doing today. Only these people who have taken the Holy Spirit as their guide & are not deceived will inherit the Cel. Kingdom.

The doctrine that Parents & Spouses can save their errant children & spouses is true, but it is a blessing because of the righteousness of the Parent or Spouse. We cannot count on that. It's like the Savior did for us, none of us deserved to overcome death, for we have sinned. But Christ, because of his great suffering earned the power & right to save us all & bring us back to the Kingdom of Heaven. Parents & Spouses can use the same principle to get their errant children & spouses to the Cel. Kingdom, though Joseph Smith says that doesn't necessarily mean Exaltation for them.

So we see how vital it is to stay "sealed to our spouse & children" even if our spouse divorces us. If we don't break our covenants & date & remarry then we retain our marriage & sealing to our spouse & our sealing to our children & can eventually save them by that sealing & be all together again, IF we choose to be with that errant spouse, no one is forced to.

I cringe when I see people divorce & break their covenants by dating & give up their sealing to their children, just to have a new romance & their needs met. They do not know the power they are giving up & it will one day be very sad to know they could have saved their children (or spouse) if they had only kept their covenants. But I know it's hard to be alone & not date & wait for a spouse to repent, but it's so worth it.

Edited June 4, 2009 by foreverafter

[Justice]

Notice that it says that repentant spirits will be welcomed into paradise, and that ALL shall be resurrected. It does not say what glory those spirits who left Spirit Prison for Spirit Paradise will eventually inherit. Again, it comes down to having faith in Heavenly Father and His judgements.

As Justice said, "I think God will accept a repentant heart until it's too late." I agree.

Isn't it interesting how the First and Last Resurrections are separated?

First Resurrection will be BEFORE, or at the start of, the Millenneum (for those who have not been resurrected as part of the First Resurrection yet). It is for those who have repented, so that they will be restored (Alma 41) to a repentant heart.

The Last Resurrection will be AFTER the Millenneum, as if to give those who have not repented as long as possible before they are restored to their unrepentant heart.

The doctrine of restoration that goes along with the resurrection is surprisingly not discussed much or even understood very well by most members. Breaking down Alma 41 is a fun time for any who wish to learn more about the resurrection or judgement. It puts an interesting twist on how judgement mind be inter-twined with the restoration part of the resurrection, at least a partial judgement anyway.

[bmy-]

My opinion.. absolutely. Have you ever heard of a great father who would punish his child.. forever?

However.. you won't get a second chance to do it right the first time. Just like some take longer to get through college than others do.. just as an example.

[pam]

My opinion.. absolutely. Have you ever heard of a great father who would punish his child.. forever?

However.. you won't get a second chance to do it right the first time. Just like some take longer to get through college than others do.. just as an example.

Doesn't each of those lines contradict each other?

[bmy-]

Doesn't each of those lines contradict each other?

Not at all.. you fail a course in college.. you simply retake it (and are behind the rest of your class). You are not forbidden from ever taking the class again (stopping eternal progression).