Second chance at repentance?

[Moksha]

Do we get a second chance at repentance after death if we were baptized and endowed while on earth but fall away or live a life not worthy of the celestial kingdom? If so..does that give us a second chance at the celestial kingdom?

Your thoughts?

I think this boils down to whether we envision a Loving or a Harsh God. Some of us endorse the loving option and others side with the harsh option. Either way we can all sit with one another in the pews on Sunday and worship together.

:)

[Seanette]

And I think He's somewhere in the middle. Loving as long as we let Him be, harsh when we're so full of ourselves that he has to use a figurative clue-by-four to get our attention.

Also, what seems harsh to us in our limited mortal perspective may well be a loving Parent teaching us.

The image popping into my head is a parent teaching a child to walk or ride a bike. The parent has to let go sometime, the child falls down. The child thinks it's a harsh way to learn, the parent (having greater experience) knows it's necessary to give that child the skills needed to succeed, which a loving parent wants.

Another analogy would be having to correct a child who is doing something dangerous (sticking something metal into a power outlet) or morally wrong (stealing a candy bar from a store). The parent yells or physically removes the child from danger, or requires the child to confess the theft and return the stolen item (or make restitution). To the child, harsh and seemingly unfair, to the parent, a regrettable necessity to teach an essential lesson.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Seanette
fixing minor typo

[bytor2112]

I think this boils down to whether we envision a Loving or a Harsh God. Some of us endorse the loving option and others side with the harsh option. Either way we can all sit with one another in the pews on Sunday and worship together.

:)

I always envision a loving God. I don't think he will be harsh, frankly, I think we will understand and feel quite loved by his decision......after all we are the ones that REALLY determine where we will spend eternity.

[bmy-]

I'm not even convinced that God could stop our eternal progression outside of 'killing' us.

[Dravin]

15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in amarriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

Separate, single and without exaltation, not becoming a god (lower case) but an angel forever and ever sure sounds like a cessation of progress to me. Unless of course you take it to mean they'll just continue to progress as separate single angels without exaltation never becoming a god forever and ever which I suppose is one way to look at it.

Edit: And I suppose it could be argued God didn't prevent our progress, we did.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Dravin

[Justice]

I'm not even convinced that God could stop our eternal progression outside of 'killing' us.

I think the main lesson we can learn from Lucifer is that our progression CAN be stopped by our choices. Also, we can learn from the scriptures is that we can join Lucifer in a progression-less eternity by our choices.

[Justice]

One of my favorite chapters in the Book of Mormon:

Mosiah 3:

25 And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls.

26 Therefore, they have drunk out of the cup of the wrath of God, which justice could no more deny unto them than it could deny that Adam should fall because of his partaking of the forbidden fruit; therefore, mercy could have claim on them no more forever.

27 And their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever. Thus hath the Lord commanded me. Amen.

Justice can't deny us our choice, and when we choose not to repent mercy has no claim... forever.

[HEthePrimate]

Hi Pam,

If you had a child who rebelled against you, stole some money, left home, and didn't talk to you for five years, would you forgive her if she came back after that five years, humbly asked for your forgiveness, repaid the money, and treated you well for an extended period of time?

Suppose ten years later you two have another falling out, and your child stops talking to you again. Then you die.

In the next life, you go about your heavenly duties, and eventually your child dies, too. She comes to you in tears, hoping to reconcile. She's very nice to you, and so on. Is there any chance you might forgive her? Eventually?

God loves you even more than your earthly mother does (Isaiah 49:15-16).

HEP

[pam]

I think really the thought behind me starting this thread goes back to something that was said on another.

Basically, I'm asking and here's the scenario: You are baptized into the Church. You are an endowed member. You are told you will have a second chance at repentance once you die. So you live your life with a carefree attitude that you can do pretty much what you want because you have a second chance.

So you have the knowledge of what is required. Okay so you die and you are given a chance to repent. Does that give you another chance at the celestial kingdom or are you allowed to repent but due to your actions on earth still only gain telestial or terrestial glory?

That is really what I was trying to get at. I think there was a misunderstanding somewhere along the line.

[skalenfehl]

This life is the time to prepare to meet God. We read that throughout the scriptures. We make covenants. Baptismal and Temple covenants. We are worthy of the Celestial Kingdom if we keep all our covenants and endure to the end. The laws of justice are satisfied if we make all covenants. The laws of mercy can be satisfied if we tried our best to keep those covenants, hence repenting, taking the sacrament weekly, magnifying our callings, etc.

We will be judged by our actions and the desires of our hearts. Christ will know where we stand with respect to the covenants we make and how hard we truly tried to keep them. Everyone on earth is at a different state of spirituality, but like Alvin Smith, who would have accepted the gospel and kept his covenants due to the desire of his heart and inherited the Celestial Kingdom according to Joseph Smith's vision, so can we all. It's not really difficult to ask ourselves what we really want and how hard we're trying to make sure we get it. And we and Christ will know it when we stand face to face at His judgment bar.

Edited June 7, 2009 by skalenfehl

[pam]

Skal you just confirmed what I have always believed and thought. Unfortunately I found myself questioning myself due to another thread and thoughts that were placed there. I disagreed with what that poster wrote so I am glad that what I have always believed still holds true to that.

Thanks.

[Moksha]

Pam, why would a truly loving God limit us to one or two chances? I would give my own children an unlimited amount of chances to do right (they need these chances too). Eternity presents sufficient time to get things right.

.

[HEthePrimate]

Heaven forbid God be too merciful!

HEP

[Justice]

There will come a time when it is too late. Within that time you can sincerely repent.

Adam and Eve were kicked from the Garden of Eden and thereby given a time, space, or state to repent in. This is a great type of our birth. We are given a time, space, or state in order to gain the knowledge of good and evil, by choosing evil, and then repenting and returning to the Lord in a different state, a reborn state, one of a changed nature.

Alma addresses this very concern for his son Corianton. There is a "restoration" that comes along with the resurrection.

Alma 41:

1 And now, my son, I have somewhat to say concerning the restoration of which has been spoken; for behold, some have wrested the scriptures, and have gone far astray because of this thing. And I perceive that thy mind has been worried also concerning this thing. But behold, I will explain it unto thee.

2 I say unto thee, my son, that the plan of restoration is requisite with the justice of God; for it is requisite that all things should be restored to their proper order. Behold, it is requisite and just, according to the power and resurrection of Christ, that the soul of man should be restored to its body, and that every part of the body should be restored to itself.

3 And it is requisite with the justice of God that men should be judged according to their works; and if their works were good in this life, and the desires of their hearts were good, that they should also, at the last day, be restored unto that which is good.

4 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other—

5 The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh.

6 And so it is on the other hand. If he hath repented of his sins, and desired righteousness until the end of his days, even so he shall be rewarded unto righteousness.

This chapter goes on to make this issue perfectly clear, including this famous verse:

10 Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.

Mortality is the time for us to prepare. Once the night comes, or once we are resurrected, we can progress in the direction we were headed in this life, but we cannot change directions. There is no repentance after judgement.

I'd like to see any scriptures that say a man can repent and change his ways after the resurrection and judgement (I believe the resurrection will bring a partial judgement called the restoration). Just study Alma 41 (only 15 verses) and you will see it can't be any other way.

The merciful part of the plan; the part of the plan that makes it possible for us to receive mercy, is this mortal life where a curtain is stretched between us and God (veil) and we can experience evil, even choose it, and have a change of heart and be redeemed before we pass back through that cutain. If we pass back through that curtain with the desires for evil, then we cannot dwell in His presence and we can no longer be redeemed from our desires.

We will receive the reward for that which we have chosen.

Edited June 7, 2009 by Justice

[Justice]

Think about it, the whole intent for the atonement is for men to repent in this life, that so when they are resurrected and judged, Christ will have paid the pentaly for that man's sins. If Christ's atonement is not applied to an individual, they will have to pay the pentaly themselves (D&C 19). This can never be reversed. You cannot come to a point and retroactively have Christ pay for your sins once you already have.

D&C 19:

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

So, the goal of this life is to have Christ pay for your sins, and He said only the repentant will be offered His atonement. Once it is not applied, and you are judged, how can it then be reversed later?

Here are the words of the Savior Himself:

3 Nephi 27:

16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.

19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

...

33 And it came to pass that when Jesus had ended these sayings he said unto his disciples: Enter ye in at the strait gate; for strait is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it; but wide is the gate, and broad the way which leads to death, and many there be that travel therein, until the night cometh, wherein no man can work.

[HEthePrimate]

Think about it, the whole intent for the atonement is for men to repent in this life, that so when they are resurrected and judged, Christ will have paid the pentaly for that man's sins.

IS that the whole intent of the Atonement?

If Christ's atonement is not applied to an individual, they will have to pay the pentaly themselves (D&C 19). This can never be reversed. You cannot come to a point and retroactively have Christ pay for your sins once you already have.

Ok, suppose sometime in the future an individual who did not have Christ's atonement applied to them comes to the point where they have paid the full price for their own sins--what then? Can they start progressing after that, since the price for their sins has been paid? Can they then enter God's presence, since the penalty has been paid?

So, the goal of this life is to have Christ pay for your sins

Is it REALLY?

HEP

[Hemidakota]

The goal in this life is to seek and have a personal relationship with the Godhead.

[Hemidakota]

One of my favorite chapters in the Book of Mormon:

Mosiah 3:

25 And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls.

26 Therefore, they have drunk out of the cup of the wrath of God, which justice could no more deny unto them than it could deny that Adam should fall because of his partaking of the forbidden fruit; therefore, mercy could have claim on them no more forever.

27 And their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever. Thus hath the Lord commanded me. Amen.

Justice can't deny us our choice, and when we choose not to repent mercy has no claim... forever.

Question here, who is Justice?

[Hemidakota]

I think really the thought behind me starting this thread goes back to something that was said on another.

Basically, I'm asking and here's the scenario: You are baptized into the Church. You are an endowed member. You are told you will have a second chance at repentance once you die. So you live your life with a carefree attitude that you can do pretty much what you want because you have a second chance.

So you have the knowledge of what is required. Okay so you die and you are given a chance to repent. Does that give you another chance at the celestial kingdom or are you allowed to repent but due to your actions on earth still only gain telestial or terrestial glory?

That is really what I was trying to get at. I think there was a misunderstanding somewhere along the line.

Only if the Holy Ghost did not confirm what was given to you in this life that you will have the opportunity in the next life to receive the missionaries. It is then the works and desire of the heart will be met in judgment.

[HEthePrimate]

Another question.

Setting aside the question of mercy entirely, would it truly be just to punish a person forever for a finite sin (or group of sins) she committed during her mortal life? Think of it: finite sin, infinite punishment. Doesn't sound just to me, and I find it hard to believe that God would do that.

HEP

[pam]

Okay let me ask this question. If she/he knew they were sinning, had the knowledge of the fullness of the Gospel, was baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, repented after death; does that still give her/him access to the celestial kingdom?

[Hemidakota]

We first need to understand what is punishment and who/what brings this about. It is not GOD who really brings about this meted punishment of 'fire and brimstone' but we do it to ourselves. We will have the perfect clarity of our experiences of sin in this life and compare them with the laws of the kingdom when we refuse to repent in this mortal probation. The Savior has made it clear in the Doctrine and Covenants, when a person refuses to repent, they will suffer the sin themselves and the Atonement will have no affect.

In order to have a full understanding the justice and mercy, to include the deepen love of the Godhead for us; we must have that personal relationship.

[Hemidakota]

Okay let me ask this question. If she/he knew they were sinning, had the knowledge of the fullness of the Gospel, was baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, repented after death; does that still give her/him access to the celestial kingdom?

There is repentance after death but they will not inherit the Celestial Kingdom. "Knowing", is when they received the First Comforter as to a personal confirmation to that individual of the truth and refuses to repent is entirely different than someone who [hearing only] receives the truth but had not the Holy Ghost confirmation.

Only time when a person is allowed to enter the Celestial Kingdom are those who received the Second Comforter in this life but did not fully repent in this mortal probation will suffered those sins in the Spirit prison. This is where the Atonement will not have any affect over their lives. However, they will be the last to be redeemed when all of their sins are fully repented. This will come after the Lucifer and his minions will be casted out.

[Justice]

IS that the whole intent of the Atonement?

It's an expression. Maybe "primary" is better than "whole."

Ok, suppose sometime in the future an individual who did not have Christ's atonement applied to them comes to the point where they have paid the full price for their own sins--what then? Can they start progressing after that, since the price for their sins has been paid? Can they then enter God's presence, since the penalty has been paid?

No, because the sin is not washed clean by the blood of the Lamb.

[Justice]

We first need to understand what is punishment and who/what brings this about. It is not GOD who really brings about this meted punishment of 'fire and brimstone' but we do it to ourselves.

Exactly.

We choose.