Staying in the Church?

[Guest idntknw]

Hello All,

What do you think about websites like this? http://staylds.com/docs/HowToStay.html

I ask because like other people who have grown up in the church (that I have read about) I am struggling with what my relationship is like with the Church.

Thanks

[skippy740]

I'm reading through the first part of that link right now. So far, I like it. The message is good and sound for someone looking to preserve what they believe is a "tarnished faith".

I often quote SecondHand Lions on this website because sometimes if you don't believe in something, there are greater reasons WHY you should believe - because it will make you a better person for believing in those things.

Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love... true love never dies. You remember that, boy. You remember that. Doesn't matter if it's true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in.

[pam]

I thought it an excellent article!!!

[skippy740]

I've now read through the page. I like it... with a grain of salt.

One of the biggest challenges in the LDS faith is "being content with what you have while in pursuit of what you want". How do we stay content with our spiritual progress so far while in pursuit of the growth we desire?

Is it okay to not be "fully and wholeheartedly converted" and still attend meetings? Of course. Everyone is invited to attend.

Some parts I don't like on the site, like:

So if you don't like a doctrine, just wait a while. Like the weather, it has a good probability of changing anyway (at least over time).

But the overall message is good: Stay active, take what you can and build on your faith.

[pam]

Good point Skippy...I missed that line you quoted. Yeh I don't agree with that one. Doctrine does not change like the weather. It's pretty stable.

[Guest idntknw]

Skippy: I like the quote from the movie!

[MsMagnolia]

definition of a doctrine = eternal truth. how can truth change?

definition of a principle = what we should do. Once you KNOW a doctrine is true live by the principles that go with the doctrine. I think sometimes we all have moments when our conviction to live the principles of the Gospel wanes. That is the time when we need to attend our meetings the most and hold fast to the iron rod. I heard this phrase mentioned once in sacrament meeting. "the church is not a sanctum for the super righteous, it is a hospital ward for the spiritually sick". Since "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) we need to be healed with the rest of his children. Where does the healing come from? From the Savior of the World, from living the way we know God wants us to. From the Peace that only comes when we give our lives over the our Father in Heaven. Accepting everything he has to offer us and submitting our will to his.

Just my thoughts,

Mags

[john doe]

I can't endorse it. They are openly try to create 'middle way' Mormons as they call themselves. They themselves admit that it definitely won't be sanctioned by church leaders. There are very good reasons for that. While there are some good points made, their suggested ways of dealing with doubts are faulty and I believe will lead some people to be constant doubters rather encourage them to resolve their doubts in a positive way. It's a guide on how to be a 'visual Mormon', not an honest or committed one.

[Just_A_Guy]

I often quote SecondHand Lions on this website because sometimes if you don't believe in something, there are greater reasons WHY you should believe - because it will make you a better person for believing in those things.

Of course, SecondHand Lions took the easy way out by later establishing that the uncles' story was, in fact, true.

[Jim108]

Hello All,

What do you think about websites like this? http://staylds.com/docs/HowToStay.html

I ask because like other people who have grown up in the church (that I have read about) I am struggling with what my relationship is like with the Church.

Thanks

Think more about what your relationship with Jesus is.

[Moksha]

Not being able to believe that every jot and tittle is literal or historical, should not eclipse other meaningful aspects of the Church. It is after all, built on the core of Christianity.

The author of that site deserves a big congratulations. It seems to me that efforts to retain members should be equal to all the efforts expended to recruit members. This helps a lot. Reaching out to show members another way besides the highway seems very generative. :)

I also thought John Dehlin's Mormon Stories podcast on this issue was also a help for many who are struggling as well.

[marshac]

I also thought John Dehlin's Mormon Stories podcast on this issue was also a help for many who are struggling as well.

Yay for mormon stories. I listened to every singe one prior to joining the church.

[Kawazu]

Howdy,

In my opinion, creating a subcategory for, "Middle-way Mormons" is unnecessary. Most of the suggestions made within the article are apparent, such as:

• Church leaders are people.
• Even Temple-recommend holders have sins.

The whole idea that "middle-way Mormons" are "enlightened" and "traditional Mormons" are "sheeple"is at least a little divisive, perhaps. So called, "traditional Mormons" are equally capable examining their faith, so long as they are inclined to introspection. As a cynical person, it easy to fall back on the idea that idealistic people are inferior; I ought to remind myself more frequently that this is not the case.

On the whole, though, I would recommend the article. To a person struggling to stay active, it would probably be helpful.

Cheers,

Kawazu

[Hemidakota]

Hello All,

What do you think about websites like this? http://staylds.com/docs/HowToStay.html

I ask because like other people who have grown up in the church (that I have read about) I am struggling with what my relationship is like with the Church.

Thanks

What is your desire of the soul?

[Moksha]

Yay for mormon stories. I listened to every single one prior to joining the church.

John Dehlin could therefore be thought of as a cybermissionary. Bet those converts who viewed these first end up having an incredibly high retention rate.

[marshac]

John Dehlin could therefore be thought of as a cybermissionary. Bet those converts who viewed these first end up having an incredibly high retention rate.

I'll let ya know on the other side

Seriously though- it's interesting that you talk about the retention rate... from statistics i've heard, it's generally pretty low for your typical convert (which supposedly tends to skew church statistics about the quantity of members, etc). I always tease the missionaries when I see them, so one day I mentioned that I wasn't gonna go to church the following sunday because "it takes too much time".... they were like "oh no! that's even worse than if you never joined!"... seriously, they should know me better by now, but I digress.... I know why they would make that statement, but it got me thinking- since we know that the retention rate of new converts is somewhat low, and if we truly believe that coming to the church and then leaving it is worse than never having joined at all, then why all the missionary work? Doesn't it stand to reason that more harm than good is being accomplished? I don't really believe this mind you, but there is a certain logic to it.

[ztodd]

Hello All,

What do you think about websites like this? http://staylds.com/docs/HowToStay.html

I ask because like other people who have grown up in the church (that I have read about) I am struggling with what my relationship is like with the Church.

Thanks

I only read some of it, but I'll tell ya this- I don't get a real good feeling from it. My opinion- it has some anti-mormon sentiments mixed in there. I feel it's not worth the time to me to read it all the way through. You'd be better off studying the scriptures, the sunday school lessons, and other more doctrinal works.

Keep the Spirit with you- pray for it and live for it. Do as God would have you do. It may be hard sometimes, but it's worth it. Very much so.

[Carl62]

I only read some of it, but I'll tell ya this- I don't get a real good feeling from it. My opinion- it has some anti-mormon sentiments mixed in there. I feel it's not worth the time to me to read it all the way through. You'd be better off studying the scriptures, the sunday school lessons, and other more doctrinal works.

Keep the Spirit with you- pray for it and live for it. Do as God would have you do. It may be hard sometimes, but it's worth it. Very much so.

What you say is actually excellent and sound advice to live by......if you're already active. But what if you're not? It's easy to just write off inactives by simply saying "oh, they need to read scripture more, pray more, ponder more, yada yada..." They've already probably heard that. So now what? I don't think the intention of the writers was to bring Mormons back into the church with anti-Mormon means. That won't work, or if it does, it will be very short lived (then back to inactivity). My take on it is that they are trying to get the inactives to meet active Mormons just halfway by somehow enabling them to digest things that they weren't able to accept at all before, thus getting them somewhat back into church. Then once they're in the church, THEN the Spirit may take over in due time by giving them the desire to read the scriptures, maybe hear an answer to a nagging question during sunday school/sacrament, pray more and hopefully come to the complete acceptance of the gospel. Not everything in the church SHOULD be so black and white in regards to actives vs. inactives. We need to be more sympathetic and compassionate to their spiritual burdens or doubts instead of a "it's this way or no way" approach.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Carl62

[ztodd]

What you say is actually excellent and sound advice to live by......if you're already active. But what if you're not? It's easy to just write off inactives by simply saying "oh, they need to read scripture more, pray more, ponder more, yada yada..." They've already probably heard that.

You really think we're "writing off" inactives by reminding them they need to continue to pray and study the scriptures?

Do you realize it's also the same thing we remind the "actives" to do all the time? It's a benefit to everybody to remember to do these things to keep close to God.

So now what? I don't think the intention of the writers was to bring Mormons back into the church with anti-Mormon means. That won't work, or if it does, it will be very short lived (then back to inactivity). My take on it is that they are trying to get the inactives to meet active Mormons just halfway by somehow enabling them to digest things that they weren't able to accept at all before, thus getting them somewhat back into church.

I can understand wanting to help people find an easier transition back into the church, but the approach of not taking the church's teachings seriously is wrong. A person should not water down or corrupt the doctrine just to try to to make himself feel better about his lifestyle.

I have sins and weaknesses- I know they need to be repented of and improved upon- but they don't have to keep me away from the church. The church is a hospital for the spiritually sick, to help provide healing, to bring us back to Christ.

Then once they're in the church, THEN the Spirit may take over in due time by giving them the desire to read the scriptures, maybe hear an answer to a nagging question during sunday school/sacrament, pray more and hopefully come to the complete acceptance of the gospel. Not everything in the church SHOULD be so black and white in regards to actives vs. inactives. We need to be more sympathetic and compassionate to their spiritual burdens or doubts instead of a "it's this way or no way" approach.

You make good points- we should be compassionate and helpful to people who are wanting to improve their lives. You make a good case for showing Christ-like love to everyone, regardless of their activity level in the church. But not a good case for corrupting true principles, commandments, and covenants.

[Carl62]

Oh well, if this site leads to the possibility of even just one person returning to the church and eventually gaining a full testimony of the gospel as well as a closer relationship with God and Jesus Christ, then REGARDLESS OF THE MEANS, I'll give it a two big thumbs up!

[ztodd]

You believe the end justifies the means? The problem with that is how many "ends" are there? How many people might have their faith shaken or destroyed instead of strengthened?

[Carl62]

You believe the end justifies the means? The problem with that is how many "ends" are there? How many people might have their faith shaken or destroyed instead of strengthened?

I'm saying this in the hopes that it will bring about a positive result, as opposed to a negative one. Why are you choosing to be so negative about this? AGAIN, if this lukewarm approach to the church brings about the possibility of re-activating someone and strengthen their testimony in the gospel, then what is wrong with that??!!! Can you think of any other way to bring 60% inactives back into the church? Obviously nobody else has come up with anything and that's why it's still at 60%! I still stand by what I say that yes, ANY MEANS JUSTIFIES A GOOD END. I'm done with this. I'm sure you'll want the last word on this so go ahead. Good night.

[Islander]

I'm saying this in the hopes that it will bring about a positive result, as opposed to a negative one. Why are you choosing to be so negative about this? AGAIN, if this lukewarm approach to the church brings about the possibility of re-activating someone and strengthen their testimony in the gospel, then what is wrong with that??!!! Can you think of any other way to bring 60% inactives back into the church? Obviously nobody else has come up with anything and that's why it's still at 60%! I still stand by what I say that yes, ANY MEANS JUSTIFIES A GOOD END. I'm done with this. I'm sure you'll want the last word on this so go ahead. Good night.

I believe he is being a pragmatist and, IMHO, accurately looking at the cost/benefit balance. "A medicine that cures a few but kills a few is not good medicine", my grandma just to say. And your philosophical assertion about "the ends justifies the means" has been used to commit unthinkable monstrosities in recorded history. We must ALWAYS consider the means for it is and forever will be the testament of what we do and reflect on the values that we hold.

I will keep it simple but, not all doctrine has equal value even when they approach the same subject. For example, the BoM testifies of Christ, of his birth, his ministry, the Atonement and relevance for humanity with precision, clarity and transparency that is not present in the bible. Some may not agree but there is no confusion or argument about what it says. Equally, regardless of the intended purpose, I will not consider an unqualified source on the web of equal value to what the Prophets and Apostles have to say on the same subject.

Just a thought

[john doe]

I still stand by what I say that yes, ANY MEANS JUSTIFIES A GOOD END.

I'm thinking about how this would apply to the Inquisition.

[Elphaba]

I don't have an opinion on the ways Dehlin advises people to stay in the Church, but if you are truly interested in why many (not all) people leave, and are able to consider it is not always because someone wants to sin, his descriptions are accurate..

While my leaving the Church is more complicated than the reasons below, the first one pretty much sums it up for me.

"You Never Received the Witness": In spite of your high level of devotion to the church, in your heart, you were never completely comfortable saying, "I know the church is true." At some point, you decided to try really, really hard to receive a more concrete witness as to the "truthfulness" of the church, only to continually emerge spiritually empty-handed. Moroni's promise simply didn't come true for you, even though you really did try.

Continued:

"You Became Confused About the Difference Between 'The Spirit' and Emotion": Throughout your membership in the church, you had been taught to equate strong emotional experiences with Mormon-centered manifestations of the Holy Ghost. At some point along the way, you had a deeply moving emotional/spiritual experience outside the context of Mormonism (could have been a movie, a visit to a war memorial, or even to another church), and then began to wonder what the difference really was between a Mormon-based spiritual confirmation, and basic human emotion.

"You Met Some Amazingly Righteous Non-Mormons": You gained significant exposure to some incredibly moral and even spiritual non-LDS people. Perhaps they even claimed to have had the same type of spiritual assurances that you did about their own belief system. Or maybe they seemed to live a more transcendent life than most of the LDS people you knew -- including yourself. After much contemplation, it did not feel right to simply discard their beliefs and lifestyle as invalid or inferior, while continuing to hold your own up as divinely superior.

"You Did the Math on Number of LDS Worldwide, and Throughout Time": You finally did the math, and realized that active members of the LDS Church represent less than .005 % of the world's total population today -- and even less than that throughout history. Moreover, as you pondered your assumptions about an all-powerful and all-loving God, you began to question the "one incredibly small, but exclusively true church" or "God's franchise" concept, given the overwhelming number of God's children (think China and India alone) who, for all intents and purposes, are (or have been) excluded from "the franchise" during their lifetime. Could God truly be that inefficient, or ineffective? This was His plan after all. Conversely, were so many of His children that fallen or incompetent (to not merit the gospel in their lives)? If we are His offspring and made in His image, what does that say about Him?

"Stumbled Upon Difficult Church History": Some life event (maybe a church calling or something you heard) caused you to increase your study of LDS Church history, doctrine, and culture in earnest. As you began studying (either by Google or by books), you became overwhelmingly disenchanted by the huge chasm between the version of history and doctrine you were taught all your life within the church, and what you learned in your newfound studies. Some of the topics likely included: Joseph Smith's treasure digging and subsequent use of a "peep stone in a hat" to dictate the Book of Mormon, issues surrounding the authenticity of the Book of Abraham, Joseph's polygyny, the clear connection between the Masonic lodge rituals and the LDS temple ceremony, the historicity issues surrounding the Book of Mormon, the events surrounding Joseph's martyrdom, the treatment of blacks, women and dissenters within the church, etc. It should be made clear that your primary sources of study were not anti-Mormon literature, but instead were largely taken from church-published speeches, books, articles, and first-hand journals of faithful, devout members (usually general authorities).

"Political Differences w/ Church Leadership": Some major life event (usually involving yourself or a loved one) awakened you to the plight of the "culturally disenfranchised" or "other" within Mormonism: namely women, homosexuals, single people, the divorced, intellectuals, part-member families, disfellowshipped or excommunicated members, etc. As you pondered their inadequate status within what you believed to be God's one and only true church (which purports to be based on the teachings of Christ) you began to feel uneasy.

"Not Feeling Inspired in Church": You slowly realized over time that you were simply not being spiritually edified to your satisfaction during regular church or temple service. The church began to feel spiritually empty for you. Maybe even spiritually damaging or destructive.

Elphaba