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Word of Wisdom - one more time...

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Gospel Doctrine class last Sunday was on D&C 89 - Word of Wisdom.

Predictably, the entire hour was spent talking about tobacco and alcohol almost to the exclusion of everything else.

Now, there are 21 verses in the entire Word of Wisdom... only 5 of which covers tobacco and alcohol.

And then it was mentioned that you cannot get baptized unless you forsake tobacco and alcohol. And you cannot get a temple recommend if you digress after baptism and start drinking/smoking.

But... in the Word of Wisdom - it also says to eat sparingly, with prudence, and thanksgiving. Now, I know I'm gonna get some flack for this, but a lot of Americans do not eat anything sparingly or with prudence. You can go to any mainstream restaurant and see the portions. And we all know there are a lot of members having weight issues, not because they have an illness, but because they don't eat with prudence. So, how come that's okay? I mean, you can get baptized and get a temple recommend if you consume 100 slices of pizza a day... or, at least, I think you can... yet one beer a day and you're done for.

I don't have any problems with WOW. I never drank nor smoked even before I was a member, so that was an easy one for me - never did like the taste of tobacco or alcohol. I can eat a dozen chocolate bars a day if I don't control myself, though.

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You're right. The Word of Wisdom is a spiritual law of health as well as a physical law of health.

There are powerful verses in the Word of Wisdom that speak of having a clear mind so you can receive revelation more easily.

19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;

It's a shame to waste a full lesson on the what not to do's of the Word of Wisdom, and not focus on the blessings, especially the spiritual ones.

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The purpose of the Word of Wisdom is to offer a starting point in discipline for the weakest of Saints or those that would call themselves saints. You are very correct about many members that think they have finished the journey if they do the minimum. Justice hit the nail on the head – the spiritual wisdom does not come by doing the minimum but will come “line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept” for those the evolve in their discipline become “whole” and “holy” in their discipline. The minimum does not make a saint but for most of us it is a beginning well worth the journey.

The Traveler

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Being one who has some kind of negative reaction to wheat and being made aware it is among the top 4 allergens, I don't really get to say what I think or ask for ideas along the lines of my experience in class. Wheat for man, right? Right. Allergy schmallergy, you just don't understand the scriptures properly. It isn't as cool to me as it is to most because of that and trouble with fruits. On the other hand it presents an interesting puzzle. Thankfully I don't have to eat wheat like I have to avoid coffee.

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I've taught that lesson a couple of times in Gospel Principles. I always covered the entire thing. Gospel Principles is a basic-level class, and the stuff might be new to people, so they ought to get the entire thing at least once.

Gospel Doctrine isn't a basic-level class, it tends to go deeper into portions of subjects and whatnot.

I think many teachers may also shy away from some of the parts because it will devolve the class into an arguement about whether the Lord hates vegans or not. :lol:

LM

(He doesn't, in my opinion...)

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My husband has to be careful about grains and what fruits he likes due to carbohydrates (he's diabetic).

Granted, the typical American diet does leave much to be desired in health terms, but I'm not sure how to juggle the necessary revisions within my husband's dietary needs and keep the grocery bill halfway sane, especially if we were to seriously cut meat and other animal products.

I do think individual judgment is involved to accommodate allergies or other dietary issues, though.

(The soft drink habits DH and I both have would be a side issue, and yeah, we need to work on that. Hard for one household member to make such adjustments if the other isn't on board.)

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I know I live the letter of the word of wisdom, I doubt I'm living the spirit of it though. Right now I'm mostly living on caffeine (from soda not coffee ;)), ramen noodles, and whatever is in the vending machines at work. Kind of a wash nutritionally. The only time I eat anything good is the weekends when I have time to cook.

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Well, I don't know too many people who take meat breaks every 15 minutes, or have to have that big slab of meat in the morning or they are just super cranky. For health, we definitely need to eat better, but our mood and our attitude usually doesn't depend on it. Now, I am diabetic, and I get really cranky around 3:30 PM if I don't have a little snack, so for me, I have to plan my meals a little more than most people, and I have to watch what I eat. So for me, food is a little like smoking or coffee, because it affects my mood. Hopefully, if we learn to avoid coffee, tea, tobacco, and alcohol, we won't have to deal with such mood swings, because we know people do get addicted and will be dependent on them. I would love to not be diabetic and not have to watch what I eat. I am glad I never smoked (for example) so I don't have that added burden.

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I love the Word of Wisdom! It was a big reason why I was interested in the Church awhile back. I just love how it instructs us to take care of our bodies and connects our physical health with our spiritual health. Each one of us is responsible for taking care of our bodies. I feel as though we need to take WOW to our Heavenly Father in prayer and ask how we can apply it in our lives, because every one of us is different with different needs.

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That particular Sunday was my least favorite Sunday of all because I got attacked by everyone for being a vegan :(. Yet, it's ok when they stuff their faces with animals corpses everyday and call it "sparingly" :huh:

They kept quoting D&C 49:18-19:

18 And whoso biddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;

19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.

Helloooo, it doesn't say "And whoso abstaineth from meat is not ordained of God". This verse only means that you shouldn't tell/require someone to not eat meat as the Shakers did, it's an individual choice. And it's funny how the next verse is being ignored:

21 And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and HATH NO NEED. (Footnote to that verse: JST Gen. 9: 11 And surely, blood shall not be shed, only for meat, TO SAVE YOUR LIVES; and the blood of every beast will I require at your hands. (I capitalized those words so that they don't get overlooked))

"...hath no need." I do not eat animals because I have no need for it. It's been proven that you can stay alive and healthy without eating dead animal parts. In fact, I feel way better now than when I used to eat them. Yes, some vegetarians do get sick, but I think it's most likely because they're not being smart about it. Variety is the key. I will get sick if I eat only rice or only beans or only salad everyday. As long as I have a variety in my diet, I'm healthy. Right now my diet includes some vegetables, grains, and seeds that I never even heard of when I was eating meat. The only element that plants don't have is B12, so I get it from fortified cereals, soy milk, and nutritional yeast. Going back to verse 18...I can not say that vegetarian diet is the way everyone should live. It's up to an individual to decide. Everyone has different circumstances and lives in different parts of the world. Say, if I lived in some remote town/village in the middle of nowhere, and there was only one store that didn't have a lot to choose from, then yes, I'd eat what is available including animals. But I live in Provo, Utah. I can go to any one of the countless grocery stores here, and I can buy vegetables, fruit, seeds, nuts, beans, juices, etc. no matter what time of year it is. Therefore, there's no need for dead animals. The only "need" that I used to have was that "it tastes good". But I'm glad I finally realized that it's not a need, it's just a want, and that I am accountable for every animal that suffers because of me.

One girl even said to me that by not eating animals I'm not being grateful and respectful of Gods creatures :confused: Well, I am being grateful and respectful, but I do it in a different way. She respects them by killing them, and I respect them by saving and preserving them and by eliminating unnecessary suffering.

(Sorry if my English sounds weird, it's not my first language :))

Edited by tory

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Hopefully they were just kidding with you, even if they were doing it poorly. :)

My wife's vegetarian, and I'm not a picky eater, I'll eat all sorts of things. She makes some pretty darn good veggie dishes.

You probably shouldn't preach to everyone that they're murdering animals for food - that probably gets them all defensive. Just quietly set an example.

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Well, normally I'm not the preachy type. I keep quiet, but if I get attacked I get defensive and then start preaching :) Here I just wanted to vent about that sunday school lesson that was brought up.

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Well, normally I'm not the preachy type. I keep quiet, but if I get attacked I get defensive and then start preaching :) Here I just wanted to vent about that sunday school lesson that was brought up.

I hope you don't feel attacked all the time. Being Vegan is a choice and I think it's great that you've decided to be Vegan. I make a mean vegan Chili.

But I also love myself a hamburger!

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Being one who has some kind of negative reaction to wheat and being made aware it is among the top 4 allergens, I don't really get to say what I think or ask for ideas along the lines of my experience in class. Wheat for man, right? Right. Allergy schmallergy, you just don't understand the scriptures properly. It isn't as cool to me as it is to most because of that and trouble with fruits. On the other hand it presents an interesting puzzle. Thankfully I don't have to eat wheat like I have to avoid coffee.

Wheat is for man, you're just broke. :P (This is a joke)

I look at it like fasting, we are supposed to fast but some, such as diabetics can't just go 24 hours without food, they'll slip into a coma and die. And I truly believe the lord understands and accepts our desire and action to live his law as closely as we can given the physical limits of our mortal (and thus flawed bodies).

Besides, its talking about whole wheat, I imagine a lot of members don't eat any more whole wheat flour than you do (me likes whole wheat personally). :D

That particular Sunday was my least favorite Sunday of all because I got attacked by everyone for being a vegan .

Being Vegan is not required by the WoW, you can be such if you want but I've run into a those who feel its demanded by it, which it most certainly isn't, don't know if your the type though. For the record eating a 72 oz steak every night for dinner not only isn't demanded is against it, so I do understand where you are coming from. Sparingly is a sticky issue though, most eat meat sparingly compared to a lion, but I don't think that's what the Lord meant. :)

Also, if you actually do talk about killing animals for food as murder that's gonna get some looks and possibly some fingers, both the law of the land and the lord do not feel killing and eating an animal is murder. Strong stances and emotionally charged language tends to beget the same.

I'm curious, why vegan and not just vegetarian? Unfertilized eggs don't suffer any and are a good source of protein, same with cheese and milk. I imagine it's something about the conditions in which they are produced but you can get them from other sources than the mass produced stuff and in the end that has nothing to do with nutrition.

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Being Vegan is not required by the WoW, you can be such if you want but I've run into a those who feel its demanded by it, which it most certainly isn't, don't know if your the type though.

No, I don't think that veganism is required by the WoW. However, I do think that D&C 49:21 requires me to be a vegetarian given the circumstances I have right now. Living in a developed town where I have no problem getting any kind of food I want, I would be lying to myself, to God, and to everyone else if I said that I "need" to kill animals (or pay someone else to do it for me).

I'm curious, why vegan and not just vegetarian? Unfertilized eggs don't suffer any and are a good source of protein, same with cheese and milk. I imagine it's something about the conditions in which they are produced but you can get them from other sources than the mass produced stuff and in the end that has nothing to do with nutrition.

Yes, one of the reasons I'm vegan is the conditions in which these products are produced. I could buy "free range" stuff, but you can't always trust this sticker, plus it's more expensive. And no matter whether it's a "free range" "happy" cow/chicken or a factory farm one, in the end they all end up on someone's table. So, by eating eggs/milk I would be supporting the meat industry.

Also, I don't want all the stuff that's in milk/eggs like fat, cholesterol, hormones, blood, pus, etc. entering my body. It's not good for me and simply gross.

Edited by tory

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To our vegan poster, your choice of rhetoric (calling killing animals for food, which is authorized by the Lord, "murder" and using deliberately emotionally charged language such as "corpses") IS going to antagonize a lot of people, since that rhetoric makes you sound like you're passing a rather mean-spirited moral judgment on them, and willfully ignoring Scripture you don't like (the D&C 49 citation) doesn't help.

To me, you really do sound a bit self-righteous on the subject, and that does create some antagonism. (I'd say that even if I agreed with your basic position, although I don't, being an omnivore.)

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Also, I don't want all the stuff that's in milk/eggs like fat, cholesterol, hormones, blood, pus, etc. entering my body. It's not good for me and simply gross.

Fat is a part of a healthy diet, just don't over do it (besides plants have fat, case in point: vegetable oil), cholesterol in moderate amounts is fine, and plants contain hormones, blood is simply a collection of digestible fluids (its mostly water), some solid matter and iron.

Can't argue with you on gross, that's in the eye of the beholder. :)

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Also, I don't want all the stuff that's in milk/eggs like fat, cholesterol, hormones, blood, pus, etc. entering my body. It's not good for me and simply gross.

Blech! BTW, you can find many things like that in the vegetables you eat, also. Worms, fungus, snails, etc., all have their little party in every vegetable garden around. Imagine all the eggs that are laid, spider webs, bugs and bug parts that end up in every salad you make. After all, when they harvest fruits and veggies, there's lots of nasty little things that get incorporated into your meal.

BTW, if you are eating an occasional spider egg, daddy long leg, or amoeba, does that mean you are eating (gasp!) meat?????

At least they are free range....

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To our vegan poster, your choice of rhetoric (calling killing animals for food, which is authorized by the Lord, "murder" and using deliberately emotionally charged language such as "corpses") IS going to antagonize a lot of people, since that rhetoric makes you sound like you're passing a rather mean-spirited moral judgment on them, and willfully ignoring Scripture you don't like (the D&C 49 citation) doesn't help.

To me, you really do sound a bit self-righteous on the subject, and that does create some antagonism. (I'd say that even if I agreed with your basic position, although I don't, being an omnivore.)

Like I said before, I just wanted to vent about that particular Sunday. I'm the one who was being attacked; so, naturally, I got defensive. I would agree with everything you said if I was the one starting to argue. I do use emotionally charged words, but only after being called "an apostate" or "ungrateful of God's creatures". Usually, people get all worked up seconds after learning that I'm vegan.They start quoting that scripture without understanding the meaning of it. That scripture is not against vegetarianism, but against requiring people to be vegetarians as the Shakers did. So, I actually love that scripture just as the one after it that talks about "no need":)

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We use tobacco, alcohol, coffee and tea as the lowest common denominator for baptism and the temple.

Then, each member is encouraged to develop their spiritual selves, and prepare to live the WoW and other commandments at higher levels, as they prepare themselves. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

In this way, none of us has to start out with the commandment, "Be ye therefore perfect" and know we've already failed the test.

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Blech! BTW, you can find many things like that in the vegetables you eat, also. Worms, fungus, snails, etc., all have their little party in every vegetable garden around. Imagine all the eggs that are laid, spider webs, bugs and bug parts that end up in every salad you make. After all, when they harvest fruits and veggies, there's lots of nasty little things that get incorporated into your meal.

BTW, if you are eating an occasional spider egg, daddy long leg, or amoeba, does that mean you are eating (gasp!) meat?????

At least they are free range....

LOL I actually wash my vegetables really well before eating them to make sure there's no eggs and webs. Don't you?:) And I cut off all the black spots/dots and peel them if possible (e.g. cucumbers, apples, etc.)

Yes, I do eat an occasional free-range bug, but there's nothing I can do about it. I'm vegan, but there's no such thing as 100% vegan. 100% vegan is a dead one :) All I can do is try to eliminate animal/insect suffering to the extent possible.

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Fat is a part of a healthy diet, just don't over do it (besides plants have fat, case in point: vegetable oil), cholesterol in moderate amounts is fine, and plants contain hormones, blood is simply a collection of digestible fluids (its mostly water), some solid matter and iron.

Can't argue with you on gross, that's in the eye of the beholder. :)

Yes, but I don't want any animal fat in my diet. I'm not a nutritionist or anything to say what amounts of different fats we need, but I know 7 people (my grandfather's lifelong friends) who have been vegetarians for 20-40 years now and they have no health problems and look and feel way better than other people of their age. And then I see people getting heart attacks, strokes, and other things because of the animal fat and cholesterol they consumed their whole lives. So, I better stick with "good" fats and oils from plants (olive oil, coconut oil, avocado, nuts).

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Being Vegan is not required by the WoW, you can be such if you want but I've run into a those who feel its demanded by it, which it most certainly isn't, don't know if your the type though.

This is specifically addressed in the scripture. See D&C 49:18-19.

18· And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;

19· For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.

For the record eating a 72 oz steak every night for dinner not only isn't demanded is against it, so I do understand where you are coming from. Sparingly is a sticky issue though, most eat meat sparingly compared to a lion, but I don't think that's what the Lord meant.

I've heard or read somewhere that it was a common belief in Joseph Smith's time that the best diet for humans was one that consisted almost entirely of meat. Grains and vegetables were eaten primarily because a meat-only diet was prohibitively expensive for many people; but if you could afford it, you were likely to eat mostly meat. Compared to that, most modern Americans do eat meat “sparingly”. I do not know for certain that this is true, but it does make sense.

Somewhat more obvious is a characteristic of meat, with regard to the statement encouraging the use of meat “only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.” Meat spoils easily, and can become quite toxic when it spoils. Before modern refrigeration and other modern preservative methods, it was safer and healthier to eat meat when the weather is cold than when it is hot.

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Also, I don't want all the stuff that's in milk/eggs like fat, cholesterol, hormones, blood, pus, etc. entering my body. It's not good for me and simply gross.

But yummy. Oh, so delectably yummy.

:satan:

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But yummy. Oh, so delectably yummy.

:satan:

Not to me. I think almond milk is the best :) and chocolate almond milk....and vanilla...As for the eggs, I used to love them, but now I don't miss them at all.

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