Premortal Existence Also Taught in Protestantism?

[prisonchaplain]

In discussions at this site the LDS doctrine of premortal existence came across as an understanding that we have an eternal aspect to us. Further, that that infinite is an intelligence. My initial reaction to that is that no, we were brought into existence at conception, and that the world was created out of nothing.

Today I viewed a short video on this very topic from the Church's website: Mormon.org - Home

...and I thought, well yes there is one aspect in which we are eternal, and that there is intelligence to that--our doctrine of Foreknowledge (or Predestination, for Calvinists). We believe that God knew us before we were born, that He even knew how we would do in this world. God knows what is yet to be. If so, our lives are indeed in his heart, and have always been so. If we're in the heart of God, do we not exist?

Our doctrines are still very significantly different in this. However, perhaps not quite so much as I thought. Perhaps some philosophers here will want to wrestle with this a bit?

[Maureen]

I believe that's why God is God, because he does have foreknowledge. He knows everything, and yet we, his creation, still have free will.

[Hemidakota]

In discussions at this site the LDS doctrine of premortal existence came across as an understanding that we have an eternal aspect to us. Further, that that infinite is an intelligence. My initial reaction to that is that no, we were brought into existence at conception, and that the world was created out of nothing.

Today I viewed a short video on this very topic from the Church's website: Mormon.org - Home

...and I thought, well yes there is one aspect in which we are eternal, and that there is intelligence to that--our doctrine of Foreknowledge (or Predestination, for Calvinists). We believe that God knew us before we were born, that He even knew how we would do in this world. God knows what is yet to be. If so, our lives are indeed in his heart, and have always been so. If we're in the heart of God, do we not exist?

Our doctrines are still very significantly different in this. However, perhaps not quite so much as I thought. Perhaps some philosophers here will want to wrestle with this a bit?

Why wrestle with something you can easily ask for your own personal testimony? Look at our wonderful Science Field that is still wrestling with the Big Bang and the universe.

[Just_A_Guy]

PC, does protestantism teach that God exists outside of time--that all things past, present, and future are continually before Him as "one eternal now"?

[Guest Alana]

Sounds very similar to what Mormons think of what we were before our Spirits were formed, that before we were Spirits in the premortal existence, we were still a form of intelligence. What kind of intelligence I'm not sure, but I like to think about it:)

[Hemidakota]

PC, does protestantism teach that God exists outside of time--that all things past, present, and future are continually before Him as "one eternal now"?

I know this may come off sounding as if I throwing stones at this comment but could you DEFINE time at HIS level and this statement. I know I heard it from several sources but this statement for me holds no truism. Curiosity here but thanks for bringing this up.

[Hemidakota]

Sounds very similar to what Mormons think of what we were before our Spirits were formed, that before we were Spirits in the premortal existence, we were still a form of intelligence. What kind of intelligence I'm not sure, but I like to think about it:)

If a 14-year old girl receive such personal information, I would expect anyone else to receive the same. If we are not, then it is not our core desire to know and our lives are not in accordance with the Godhead.

[prisonchaplain]

PC, does protestantism teach that God exists outside of time--that all things past, present, and future are continually before Him as "one eternal now"?

My guess is that some would say so, and others would be uncomfortable with that much speculation. How do we comprehend God's comprehension? Well...if I had to try, I would think that God discerns history from that which He foreknows. He knows it, but it is yet to be, so his "knowing" is of a different nature.

[Just_A_Guy]

I know this may come off sounding as if I throwing stones at this comment but could you DEFINE time at HIS level and this statement. I know I heard it from several sources but this statement for me holds no truism. Curiosity here but thanks for bringing this up.

I'm no quantum theorist; I can't even define time on our level with any precision! But here's a quote from Elder Maxwell that ties in a couple of different sources:

The Lord could not know all things that are to come if He did not know all things that are past as well as all things that are present. Alma described God's "foreknowledge" of all things and said also that God "comprehendeth all things." (Alma 13:3; Alma 26:35.) Indicating that omniscience is a hallmark of divinity, Helaman wrote, "Except he was a God he could not know of all things." (Helaman 9:41.)

The Lord Himself said that He "knoweth all things, for all things are present" before Him. (D&C 38:2.) We read, too, that "all things are present with me, for I know them all." (Moses 1:6.)

Therefore, God's omniscience is not solely a function of prolonged and discerning familiarity with us—but of the stunning reality that the past and present and future are part of an "eternal now" with God! (Joseph Smith, History of the Church 4:597.)

--Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1979], 8.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[Ezequiel]

If a 14-year old girl receive such personal information, I would expect anyone else to receive the same. If we are not, then it is not our core desire to know and our lives are not in accordance with the Godhead.

What do you mean? I want to know what you are talking about :)

[rameumptom]

PC,

It is an issue of ex nihilo creation. We do not believe we were created from nothing. We believe that matter is eternal, and that God forms us from the matter at hand. All things injected with the Light of Christ (Moroni 7), which fills all of space (D&C 88, 93), is made alive in its own way.

God created our spirits prior to this life, at which time I believe we gained our individual personalities. Abraham 3 tells us that it was the "organized intelligences" that gathered around him.

What is intelligence, in this instance? I believe that all matter, infused with the light of Christ, has intelligence. Each particle has characteristics of its own. A neutron particle acts differently than an electron. Yet, when combined, they not only retain their old characteristics, they also gain new ones. Particles combine to create atoms of varying sorts: Oxygen, hydrogen, uranium, etc. Then these can combine to create new forms of intelligence with new attributes: H2O inherently has all the previous characteristics of hydrogen and oxygen, but can do much more as water.

Eventually some of these are formed into spirits with individual personality, the ability to think and learn new attributes. We then are sent to earth to obtain a physical body and gain even more experience and ability. Finally, we will be resurrected to a state where body and spirit are fully united, and we can enjoy eternity as a fully generated being.

That is how I understand it.

In this, we are of the same substance as God, though he is glorified and we are not. In this way, just as Jesus came down to mortality (from his premortal existence), was resurrected, and now is on the right hand of God; so we can do the same thing. We follow fully in His path, and can become "heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ."

[EruditioSalvatus]

...and I thought, well yes there is one aspect in which we are eternal, and that there is intelligence to that--our doctrine of Foreknowledge (or Predestination, for Calvinists). We believe that God knew us before we were born, that He even knew how we would do in this world. God knows what is yet to be. If so, our lives are indeed in his heart, and have always been so. If we're in the heart of God, do we not exist?

I thought Calvinists distanced themselves from predestination which is why the Puritans were persecuted and run out of England... Either way, you gotta love "god's frozen chosen"

Predestination and preordination are more or less forms of Fatalism which really makes someone wonder what the point of a lot of things are.

[Traveler]

In discussions at this site the LDS doctrine of premortal existence came across as an understanding that we have an eternal aspect to us. Further, that that infinite is an intelligence. My initial reaction to that is that no, we were brought into existence at conception, and that the world was created out of nothing.

Today I viewed a short video on this very topic from the Church's website: Mormon.org - Home

...and I thought, well yes there is one aspect in which we are eternal, and that there is intelligence to that--our doctrine of Foreknowledge (or Predestination, for Calvinists). We believe that God knew us before we were born, that He even knew how we would do in this world. God knows what is yet to be. If so, our lives are indeed in his heart, and have always been so. If we're in the heart of God, do we not exist?

Our doctrines are still very significantly different in this. However, perhaps not quite so much as I thought. Perhaps some philosophers here will want to wrestle with this a bit?

For me there is one big glaring problem (to wrestle with) with the ideology that G-d is the sole source in determining individuality in humanity. This gorilla in the room is the very problem of predestination and the responsibility for individual characteristics relative to those that believe in G-d and those that do not believe. Since some are believers and some are not believers and if G-d is the sole source that determines individuality (along with everything else); who but G-d should be held responsible for outcomes that He knew in advance and had 100% input and determining control?

My problem is not if G-d has control over creation but that if He is the only contributor that he should not be held responsible for what he alone has set in motion and he alone is responsible for what is done. My point is this – if there is a differentiation in who is saved in G-d’s kingdom then we must recognize why the difference. If G-d did not make that difference so – then who did? Who is really responsible for that difference? If it is G-d then why is He not held to any degree of account? How can anyone believe in a G-d that will not be responsible for what he alone determines and damns his "defective" creations to hell to suffer for what he did not create in them? How can we think of such a G-d as Merciful?

The Traveler

[Dravin]

...and I thought, well yes there is one aspect in which we are eternal, and that there is intelligence to that--our doctrine of Foreknowledge (or Predestination, for Calvinists). We believe that God knew us before we were born, that He even knew how we would do in this world. God knows what is yet to be. If so, our lives are indeed in his heart, and have always been so. If we're in the heart of God, do we not exist?

I'm probably going to be guilty of a horrid analogy, but kinda like how a book or program exists in its writer's head before it exists in another medium? So God being Eternal, and me always having been a part of God by virtue of my plans (for lack of a better term) having been a part of him I by extension have always existed in a sense and am thus eternal as well?

[Hemidakota]

What do you mean? I want to know what you are talking about :)

If a daughter of Heavenly Father could ask to witness the pre-mortal life and it was granted, how is it we cannot receive the same divine vision?

[Hemidakota]

I'm no quantum theorist; I can't even define time on our level with any precision! But here's a quote from Elder Maxwell that ties in a couple of different sources:

If GOD can see what is before HIM, where and what is residing in HIS presence to do so? By which mechanism can this be done? I think your answer is not far as you really think. Even Joseph Smith used the same material, not only for seership but may had looked into the past as well what is above our state.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm probably going to be guilty of a horrid analogy, but kinda like how a book or program exists in its writer's head before it exists in another medium? So God being Eternal, and me always having been a part of God by virtue of my plans (for lack of a better term) having been a part of him I by extension have always existed in a sense and am thus eternal as well?

Your horrid analogy :p:p is exactly what I had in mind. Either great minds think alike, or we both need serious help.

[prisonchaplain]

For me there is one big glaring problem (to wrestle with) with the ideology that G-d is the sole source in determining individuality in humanity. This gorilla in the room is the very problem of predestination and the responsibility for individual characteristics relative to those that believe in G-d and those that do not believe. Since some are believers and some are not believers and if G-d is the sole source that determines individuality (along with everything else); who but G-d should be held responsible for outcomes that He knew in advance and had 100% input and determining control?

My problem is not if G-d has control over creation but that if He is the only contributor that he should not be held responsible for what he alone has set in motion and he alone is responsible for what is done. My point is this – if there is a differentiation in who is saved in G-d’s kingdom then we must recognize why the difference. If G-d did not make that difference so – then who did? Who is really responsible for that difference? If it is G-d then why is He not held to any degree of account? How can anyone believe in a G-d that will not be responsible for what he alone determines and damns his "defective" creations to hell to suffer for what he did not create in them? How can we think of such a G-d as Merciful?

The Traveler

You point out well the key criticism of Predestination. And, admittedly, many philosophers believe that Foreknowledge is little different. "If God knows it's going to happen, is there really any option?" My response is that Foreknowledge makes room for free will, and so yes, despite the reality that God knows what choices will be made, the choices are still grounded in individual volition. God may be the sole source of our existence, but he built in room for our ability to choose. A Sovereign God can do that.

[Justice]

This topic really is at the heart of who God is.

If He is in all places at all times, infinite in scope and dimension, filling the immensity of space, and we are as Maureen says "His creations," then what you say is believable.

But, if He is the Father of our spirits then it is very believable that we were alive before we came to this earth. Virtually all Christians believe the spirit can exist without the body after death. It's not that far-fetched to believe it can exist before our birth.

[Justice]

The problem with God simply "knowing of us" before we were born here, meaning we did not exist before, is that that means God imagined and made the evil people.

I believe He gave us agency. Those who are evilchose to be so by their own actions. Inversely, those who choose to follow Christ do so by their own actions. God does not force a single person to choose Him. He does not force a single person to not choose Him.

[Traveler]

You point out well the key criticism of Predestination. And, admittedly, many philosophers believe that Foreknowledge is little different. "If God knows it's going to happen, is there really any option?" My response is that Foreknowledge makes room for free will, and so yes, despite the reality that God knows what choices will be made, the choices are still grounded in individual volition. God may be the sole source of our existence, but he built in room for our ability to choose. A Sovereign God can do that.

My point is that only a defective creation would choose evil. If G-d controls all the parameters - including who will choose evil and who will not - taking determinism out of the question - my question is responsibility; how it is that G-d has no responsibility for the evils of his creations - when he created defective creatures knowing in advance their defect. Why is he not an accessory to the sins of his defective creations? He could have created every human to choose him when given the choice and still be a sovereign G-d just as easily as creating some to choose well and some to choose badly.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Justice, we believe that God did create us CAPABLE of evil, but his foreknowledge does not negate the free will He gave us.

[prisonchaplain]

My point is that only a defective creation would choose evil.

We have a catch-22. If this is so, then there is no free agency OR God is far more limited than we imagined. If creation could not choose evil, it would be defective in that it had no power or agency. Yet, you say that if it actually chooses evil, it's defective. What you demand of creation is that it be CAPABLE of evil, but that it be INCAPABLE of actually choosing evil. I would suggest that our ability to choose evil proves that God made us as the highest, most powerful of his creations.

If G-d controls all the parameters - including who will choose evil and who will not - taking determinism out of the question - my question is responsibility; how it is that G-d has no responsibility for the evils of his creations - when he created defective creatures knowing in advance their defect. Why is he not an accessory to the sins of his defective creations? He could have created every human to choose him when given the choice and still be a sovereign G-d just as easily as creating some to choose well and some to choose badly.

The Traveler

I simply disagree with your requirement that creatures choosing evil indicates defectiveness. God intentional created us capable of evil, and yes, he knew who would and would not go down that dark path. But, by giving us free will, or agency, he granted us incredible potential--indeed towards the exaltation many of us expect to see one day.

[jadams_4040]

In discussions at this site the LDS doctrine of premortal existence came across as an understanding that we have an eternal aspect to us. Further, that that infinite is an intelligence. My initial reaction to that is that no, we were brought into existence at conception, and that the world was created out of nothing.

Today I viewed a short video on this very topic from the Church's website: Mormon.org - Home

...and I thought, well yes there is one aspect in which we are eternal, and that there is intelligence to that--our doctrine of Foreknowledge (or Predestination, for Calvinists). We believe that God knew us before we were born, that He even knew how we would do in this world. God knows what is yet to be. If so, our lives are indeed in his heart, and have always been so. If we're in the heart of God, do we not exist?

Our doctrines are still very significantly different in this. However, perhaps not quite so much as I thought. Perhaps some philosophers here will want to wrestle with this a bit?

without going into very much and great detail to explain how i know its true; {prexsitence}, i,m glad some others are at least getting a little traction and opening minds to allow at least the thought of the possibility.:)

[Hemidakota]

The problem with God simply "knowing of us" before we were born here, meaning we did not exist before, is that that means God imagined and made the evil people.

I believe He gave us agency. Those who are evilchose to be so by their own actions. Inversely, those who choose to follow Christ do so by their own actions. God does not force a single person to choose Him. He does not force a single person to not choose Him.

Is GOD the author of chaos?

How could GOD know us prior to our spiritual creation? If we were formed into HIS image, what image were we prior to this state?