Questions a friend asked about the church

[rameumptom]

Visibility is not a function of the thinness of the veil, but rather the properties of the physical matter to reflect and refract the rainbow color spectrum of electromagnetic radiation.

There is seeing with the physical eyes, and seeing with the spiritual eyes. It is possible that the spiritual eyes do not require seeing radiation/light as we do through our eyes.

Besides, perhaps spirit IS visible to us, except when shielded by the veil. If you hold a bright flashlight, but are standing behind a curtain, chances are I'm not going to see any visible light radiating from it.

[talisyn]

I'm hoping other will reply, because my understanding of things is well MY understanding and I got a long way to go;)

I'll take number one. Dinosaurs. Animals were created on the 5th day, man the 6th. So, dinosaurs would have been created before man. Did they live at the same time? Well, I do believe the earth and it's inhabitants were created in 6 days, but I have no idea what a day is for God. Could there have been millions of years as we understand them between day 5 and 6? Maybe.

An other idea that is kind of out there but kind of fun is that dinosaurs never even lived on this earth. That when the earth was created, matter from the universe was gathered. Some of that matter may have been from old planets where dinosaurs had lived. SO, we get the fossils in our earths matter, without them having been alive here.

I have a hard time invisioning Dinosaurs in the garden of Eden, though, then again... maybe...

Wow I never heard about that theory of the Earth's creation! I love my fellow humans and their ability to reason out just about anything to a multitude of conclusions

[talisyn]

It's my belief that dinosaurs are a hoax that God planted on earth just to make us wonder. Every time we 'discover' something new about dinosaurs, God falls out of his throne laughing because we fell for it again.

Considering all the stuff I've told my nephews about the nature of the universe I can totally see this happening.

[Justice]

Yeah, and I've heard that Congress is the opposite of Progress. :)

[Maureen]

Let me see if I can help... When is the last time you saw Satan or one of his minions?

His minions - Supernatural, Seasons 1 to 4 and Satan himself won't appear until Season 5, September 10/09. It will be an exciting time. :)

M.

[breecatasnana]

Hey,

we have an investigator now and she's got potential (yeah!)

She's asked us some very interesting questions, that left my bishop and the missionaries and I (lol) completely speechless...

Her questions were :

1. were dinosaurs created before, or at the same time as Adam and Eve ??

2. Since Satan has brought about one third of God's children with him, where are they ??

3. If the devil doesn't have a physical body, how can we see them ? (Joseph Smith tells us to ask 'angels' to give us their hands and if we cannot feel them, then they're not of God)

Thanks in advance,

we were kinda lost with all these unusual questions !

I don't think there are any clear answers to these questions in scripture. I worked for Exxon Oil Company in the exploration department and one of the paleoentologists there was an LDS Bishop. I asked him some questions about how he coincied his work with his religion. He said that Joseph Smith had said that when the Lord returns he will explain all these things about the creation then. Until then we just had to take some things on faith.

My personal feelings on some of this is that there was no death on this earth until the fall, and that the earth was completely finished and ready for man when man was placed here. So however it was done it was completed when Adam and Eve were put here.

If we read the creation story in the Pearl of Great Price it is clearer than in the Old Testament. If we very prayerfully study it we get some feelings about it that help us understand to some extent, but I don't believe we will get any complete answers until Christ returns.

Penny

[Snow]

Until then we just had to take some things on faith.

No, not exactly. We don't have to take on faith what is demonstrated by the science.

A literal reading of Genesis is incompatible with the facts.

[Traveler]

No, not exactly. We don't have to take on faith what is demonstrated by the science.

A literal reading of Genesis is incompatible with the facts.

I disagree - a little. Who is to say that the literal reading today (in Hebrew) is, considering that Hebrew has evolved for several hundred years (and nearly lost more than once) is what the literal reading of Genesis was when it was written. There are variant readings of Genesis that is quite compatible with facts but I agree that the popular readings developed over the years of traditional Christianity is without question incompatible with so many facts that modern scholars with any credibility have abandoned the possibility that the traditional readings of Genesis was ever more than unfounded myth. However, it does appear to me that most devout religious believers in Biblical scriptures have so little foundation in credible science that for them it does not matter anyway.

The Traveler

Edited August 6, 2009 by Traveler

[dnc76v22]

Congress

That laugh button would really be great right now.

[rameumptom]

No, not exactly. We don't have to take on faith what is demonstrated by the science.

A literal reading of Genesis is incompatible with the facts.

Not only that, but WHICH reading of the Creation do we believe? Genesis 1 and 2 both have a different version. Of course, the versions in the Books of Moses and Abraham and in the temple are also different in some ways. Which part(s) is symbolic, and which parts are historic?

[rameumptom]

According to WW Phelps, Joseph Smith believed the earth to be 2.555 billion years old. Not bad for a period of time, when most scientists thought it was less than 100 million years.

Mild-Mannered Musings: W. W. Phelps on the Age of the Earth

Sadly, some Church leaders changed this quote to insist Joseph thought the universe was 2.555 billion years old.

The point being, Joseph Smith was among the first Christians to accept the concept of an ancient earth, billions of years old.

[breecatasnana]

No, not exactly. We don't have to take on faith what is demonstrated by the science.

A literal reading of Genesis is incompatible with the facts.

Two things 1.) Genesis is just a planing of the creation of the earth, not the actual creation, 2.) If you read this same account in Moses it will be much clearer especially if you read it prayerfully. The details of the creation are not given in scripture, so we cannot say how much it goes along with science and how much it does not.

Also Science is always changing as new discoveries are made. If the church agreeded with science today, it would not agree with science a hundred years from now when new things will have been discovered and science changed.

The purpose of this earth life is to work out our salvation. The church gives us what we need to know to work out our salvation. It does not give us what we need to know to get a doctrate in science. In the next life we will learn all that God has for us to learn. One step at a time and everything in order. Right now developing faith, which is a real power we need to develop to progress, is far more inportant than knowing exactly when and where and how the dinasours were created. If not knowing about the dinasours is a way of developing the faith we so need to progress to become like God, then God will withhold this knowledge for our progression's sake. After we have developed our faith then we can have all knowledge.

Penny

[soulman200973]

I'm hoping other will reply, because my understanding of things is well MY understanding and I got a long way to go;)

I'll take number one. Dinosaurs. Animals were created on the 5th day, man the 6th. So, dinosaurs would have been created before man. Did they live at the same time? Well, I do believe the earth and it's inhabitants were created in 6 days, but I have no idea what a day is for God. Could there have been millions of years as we understand them between day 5 and 6? Maybe.

An other idea that is kind of out there but kind of fun is that dinosaurs never even lived on this earth. That when the earth was created, matter from the universe was gathered. Some of that matter may have been from old planets where dinosaurs had lived. SO, we get the fossils in our earths matter, without them having been alive here.

I have a hard time invisioning Dinosaurs in the garden of Eden, though, then again... maybe...

If a day in the Lord is 10000 years this timeline is messed up for the metsosoic era and times of the dinosaur which is why I dislike trying to define the timeline of things but I keep the faith and the glass is still half full.

[soulman200973]

Visibility is not a function of the thinness of the veil, but rather the properties of the physical matter to reflect and refract the rainbow color spectrum of electromagnetic radiation.

I would agree spirits are around us both good and evil(I have tried Oija board pre LDS days and can testify of it) however since I left LDS (honorable resignation no excommunication)I still keep away from these boards.

[ztodd]

Visibility is not a function of the thinness of the veil, but rather the properties of the physical matter to reflect and refract the rainbow color spectrum of electromagnetic radiation.

You're comparing physical matter with spiritual matter, but they do not necessarily hold the same properties.

Maybe the veil has something to do with reflection of light... but I think it probably has more to do with increasing our senses to perceive the spiritual matter, rather than the properties of the spiritual matter.

[Traveler]

There are several unanswered mysteries concerning the earth and it origins. I will try to list some.

1. The dinosaurs were too large to have existed on this earth with the current force of gravity.

2. There is no answer for the origins of heavy medal elements on earth and why the moon lacks consistent percentage amounts of the same.

3. No scientist has come up with a good theory why almost all plants and animals were domesticated at the same time of human history and why the art, means, and methods of domestication have been lost.

4. There is no answer as to why life is so abundant on earth – even in the harshest environments and why no sign of life has ever been found to have existed anywhere but on this earth.

5. There is no answer as to why mankind is the only higher intelligent life to have developed and that modern intelligent man evolved and developed in such a short period of time.

6. There are no answers as to why there has been such rapid development of technology in the last 250 years despite the lack of compatible social advances.

7. There is no evidence that the life span of human ever significantly exceeded 100 years.

The Traveler

[breecatasnana]

I'm hoping other will reply, because my understanding of things is well MY understanding and I got a long way to go;)

I'll take number one. Dinosaurs. Animals were created on the 5th day, man the 6th. So, dinosaurs would have been created before man. Did they live at the same time?

Actually Genesis chapter two tells us that man was created before the animals were. The earth was totally prepared before life was placed upon it. After it was prepared and ready to sustain life then life was placed on it in this order: Genesis 2: 7 tells us Adam was created "of the dust of the ground" first, then 2: 9 tells us the plants were created "of the dust of the ground" second, then verse 19 tells us the animals were actually created "of the dust of the Ground" last. "Of the dust of the ground" refers to the physical creation; the creation of their physical bodies.

Genesis 2: 7 says: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Man did not become "a living soul" until his physical body was created, his spirit placed in it, and he took his first breath. He exhisted as a spirit person before this, but not a physical living soul. A soul is a spirit and body united.

The first chapter of Genesis is not refering to the physical creation, and it's order is different from the order of the physical creation given in chapter 2. A reading of this in Abraham will help you understand this better.

Penny

[Moksha]

Could be that the dinosaurs lived at a time of less complicated gravity.

As to domestication, perhaps the ancients were animal and plant whisperers and the secret died out with the Druids.

[breecatasnana]

I'm hoping other will reply, because my understanding of things is well MY understanding and I got a long way to go;)

Well, I do believe the earth and it's inhabitants were created in 6 days, but I have no idea what a day is for God. Could there have been millions of years as we understand them between day 5 and 6? Maybe.

First we know the sun, moon, and stars were not even created until the 4th day, so it could not be talking about one rotation of the earth causing days and nights as we know them. I suppose it could be 24 hr. periods, but they would not have been measured by the rising and setting of the sun as we do today, because there was no sun to measure by until the 4th day.

We are told in the scriptures that one day is a thousand years to God, so there is the posibility of it being thousand year days.

While the Hebrew word for day can be translated as "day" it can also be translated as "a season" as in Genesis 4: 40, or as "in the process of time" as it is in as in Judges 11: 4. Just because those who translated the King James Version of the Bible chose the word "day" does not mean that was necessarily the original meaning. They could have just as easily translated it as "season" as "process of time".

I know of no scripture that tells us for sure how long each creation period was, so I guess we just have to wait until the Lord reveals this to us either through a prophet or when He returns.

Penny

[breecatasnana]

I'm hoping other will reply, because my understanding of things is well MY understanding and I got a long way to go;)

An other idea that is kind of out there but kind of fun is that dinosaurs never even lived on this earth. That when the earth was created, matter from the universe was gathered. Some of that matter may have been from old planets where dinosaurs had lived. SO, we get the fossils in our earths matter, without them having been alive here.

I have a hard time invisioning Dinosaurs in the garden of Eden, though, then again... maybe...

Since dinosaurs are not even mentioned in scripture I tend to go with this theory myself. I know of no scientific evidence that says dinosaurs and people were on the earth at the same time either, so I just don't think they were.

Since death was not introduced to the earth until Adam and Eve fell I don't believe the dinosaurs lived and died on earth before the fall. I suppose some how they could have, but evidence as I understand it does not point to that.

If they did not live and die on earth then that would mean they were placed here after their deaths as part of the creation process. Scripture does not tell us, so we cannot say. I am just telling you what my educated guess is. Anyone else's guess would be just as valid as mine. Again we just have to wait until the Lord decides to tell us whenever that will be.

Penny

Edited August 7, 2009 by breecatasnana

[Vort]

There are several unanswered mysteries concerning the earth and it origins. I will try to list some.

Actually, I believe that none of these is an unanswered mystery. Even I, an anonymous guy on an internet discussion board, can point to answers for all of them.

1. The dinosaurs were too large to have existed on this earth with the current force of gravity.

Sure they could. In fact, paleontologists can do the physics to work out (generally) how large their muscle mass was in order to run, move, etc.

2. There is no answer for the origins of heavy medal elements on earth and why the moon lacks consistent percentage amounts of the same.

Sure there is. Several billion years ago, the proto-earth had stratified much like it is now, with a preponderance of iron and nickel at the core and the outer layers being mostly the less dense silicates and lithium compounds. Current ideas suggest that this proto-earth was struck by a Mars-sized body that caused a large amount of the proto-earth to be thrown into space. This detritus was mostly from the outer region, so it was more of the lithium and silica compounds than the heavier iron, cobalt, and nickel. Much of this material fell back to earth; some of it escaped the planet; and the rest coalesced into our Moon.

3. No scientist has come up with a good theory why almost all plants and animals were domesticated at the same time of human history and why the art, means, and methods of domestication have been lost.

Sure they have. Read Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies by Jared Diamond some time. The short answer is that all plants and animals were not domesticated at the same time. For example, strawberries were only domesticated in about the time of Christ, and were only made amenable to large production two or three hundred years ago. Macadamia nuts were only recently domesticated; acorns still have not been domesticated. In contrast, wheat has been domesticated since prehistory, perhaps as early as 12,000 years ago. Similarly, dogs and sheep have been domesticated for well over 10,000 years, while turkeys were domesticated probably no more than 1500 years ago.

4. There is no answer as to why life is so abundant on earth – even in the harshest environments and why no sign of life has ever been found to have existed anywhere but on this earth.

Sure there is. A well-established principle of biology is that life spreads out to fill available niches; if a habitat can support life, there probably will be life there. Since the high-radiation, high-vacuum environment of interplanetary space is not amenable to life as we know it on earth, you don't find life floating around outer space or colonizing other planets. At least, we haven't found any yet, but that's not to say we won't.

5. There is no answer as to why mankind is the only higher intelligent life to have developed and that modern intelligent man evolved and developed in such a short period of time.

Sure there is; it's called the anthropic principle. As for "short period of time", anthropologists estimate it's been seven million years since the human and chimpanzee genetic lines diverged. That doesn't seem too short a period to me.

6. There are no answers as to why there has been such rapid development of technology in the last 250 years despite the lack of compatible social advances.

The Book of Mormon gives as good an answer for this as anything: "For when they are learned, they think they are wise..." I would also suggest that technological innovation has been going on for very many thousands of years, and that rapid innovation has been going on for at least the last 500 years -- depending on what you want to classify as "rapid innovation".

Edited August 7, 2009 by Vort

[rameumptom]

You're comparing physical matter with spiritual matter, but they do not necessarily hold the same properties.

Maybe the veil has something to do with reflection of light... but I think it probably has more to do with increasing our senses to perceive the spiritual matter, rather than the properties of the spiritual matter.

Matter is matter. The difference is in how the matter is organized. Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms have certain characteristics/properties. But when combined, they obtain additional properties as H2O/water.

Consider that when you consider physical and spiritual matter.

[rameumptom]

Several of these HAVE been answered by science.

There are several unanswered mysteries concerning the earth and it origins. I will try to list some.

1. The dinosaurs were too large to have existed on this earth with the current force of gravity.

Says who? How do we know what they could/couldn't withstand?

2. There is no answer for the origins of heavy medal elements on earth and why the moon lacks consistent percentage amounts of the same.

Actually, science now shows that heavy metals came to earth via asteroids and comets, after they were created in the super novae elsewhere in the universe.

The moon was a large asteroid that hit the earth and was spat back out (rebounded), placing it into its current orbit. It hasn't the same matter as earth, because it is from elsewhere.

3. No scientist has come up with a good theory why almost all plants and animals were domesticated at the same time of human history and why the art, means, and methods of domestication have been lost.

Written history is not as recent as the history of animal/plant domestication. We see this even today with aboriginal groups. They have developed technologies for hunting and farming, but haven't written it down.

4. There is no answer as to why life is so abundant on earth – even in the harshest environments and why no sign of life has ever been found to have existed anywhere but on this earth.

Well, I would say that life is abundant, because it has had billions of years to develop, under God's guidance.

5. There is no answer as to why mankind is the only higher intelligent life to have developed and that modern intelligent man evolved and developed in such a short period of time.

Easy. There normally is only one animal at the top of the food chain, and nature prevents it from being toppled, because it eliminates competition. If we follow the scientific record, we descend from CroMagnon man. He eliminated Neanderthal man by out-technologizing and better adaptation. Today, we tend to squeeze out other advanced animals, so they had little chance to adapt into a higher form. As for "short" period of time, modern man developed over millions of years. With God's guidance, we were able to progress/adapt/evolve quickly.

6. There are no answers as to why there has been such rapid development of technology in the last 250 years despite the lack of compatible social advances.

Yes there are. Language brought about ancient hunter/gatherer communities. Writing brought about trade and commerce. The printing press sent knowledge out cheaply and easily to millions, allowing many minds to think and develop new ways of doing things, rather than sequestering knowledge in abbies and convents.

7. There is no evidence that the life span of human ever significantly exceeded 100 years.

The Traveler

In the science record, this is true. Which goes against the scriptures, IF we read them literally, and according to our understanding of time (linear, versus the ancient view of time as cyclical).

[Traveler]

Thought I would respond:

1. The dinosaurs were too large to have existed on this earth with the current force of gravity.

Size is problematic as it increases. This is why the design of insects, although very strong for their size keeps them small compared to other structural designs that render a creature not as strong for comparable size. The cross section of support mass must increase to support the general structure at the same rate. For example if a horse doubles in size (body mass) because the body size is a volume the increase weight will increase according to a volume or cubed formula. In short when a land creature doubles in size its legs must quadruple to handle the same forces with the same design. A dinosaur that is 4 times as large as an elephant would have to have a leg structure 16 times as large or as strong. The structural design of dinosaurs do not account for their size for current levels of gravity forces.

2. There is no answer for the origins of heavy medal elements on earth and why the moon lacks consistent percentage amounts of the same.

Heavy medals are created and scattered when a star supernovas. A close supernova would decimate our little developing solar system and star. A safely distant supernova would not supply the ratios of heavy medals to their counter parts (based on half lives) that are present on earth. The idea that the moon was created by a collision is a good idea in some regards but will not account for a near circular orbit, among other things.

3. No scientist has come up with a good theory why almost all plants and animals were domesticated at the same time of human history and why the art, means, and methods of domestication have been lost.

There is a critical mass in order to support non-hunter gather societies. The process of domesticating plants and animals to support agrarian societies took place during a very short time of human history on a global scale. The models that take mankind from hunter gathers are not a very good fit to the evidence.

4. There is no answer as to why life is so abundant on earth – even in the harshest environments and why no sign of life has ever been found to have existed anywhere but on this earth.

Just because we have not encountered life beyond this earth does not mean that it does not exist. The point is that there is no useable evidence that there is life anywhere but on earth. As abundant is life is here it is most strange that it does not show up anywhere else.

5. There is no answer as to why mankind is the only higher intelligent life to have developed and that modern intelligent man evolved and developed in such a short period of time.

The evidence of higher intelligent life on earth is at best less than 100,000 years in evolution. The dinosaurs lived and evolved in just as challenging environments for over 100 million years and never developed higher intelligent life.

6. There are no answers as to why there has been such rapid development of technology in the last 250 years despite the lack of compatible social advances.

The point here is generally missed. Mankind has been very keen and smart about developing advanced methods to deal with everything we encounter – except other humans that are keen and smart. Also there are ancient societies that developed math and science thousands of years ago that was lost during the dark ages and was not matched (in some cases) in as little as 100 years ago. Even though there have been technical advances social evolution remains mostly stagnant. How smart are we really when we cannot improve methods (including religions) to deal with ourselves?

The Traveler