Is our faith historical?

[Michael220]

Is our faith based upon something historical? Very important question to ask ourselves. I have been researching for ancient documents or archeological evidence to support the stories that the young joseph smith wrote about in the book of mormon. Joseph stated that the Nephites were people of great writings and record keeping. But we dont have a single ancient papyrus or scroll or even a fragment of this history prior to 1830. With the Bible we have the dead sea scrolls which reveal that the ancient writings of old are accurate with the kjv Bible we still have today. Dead Sea scrolls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We read about the battle that took place at the hill called kumorah, over a million people died on this small hill and not one piece of archelogical evidence has been found to support this. Also it has been proven that the native american people came from east asia, and migrated down from their. If you look at pictures of the peoples from east asia and compare it to the native americans you can clearly see the resemblance, also the archeology of native americans shows simularities between the people. And last but not least is that DNA evidence proves that the native americans are from east asia. This same DNA evidence is used to put criminals behend bars, would count the book of mormon as a fraudalent book. Have you ever been to zerehemlah,ancient bountiful? Nobody has, these cities do not exist. But we can go to Jerusalem,Bethlaham,the sea of Galilee, and all the cities the Bible speaks of.

These are sincere questions, that I believe are worth looking into. If someone has some evidence please let me know.

Many Blessings!

[Guest Believer_1829]

Just to be blunt: I don't believe for a second you are LDS

[Wingnut]

He didn't say he was, nor does his profile indicate that he is. His use of "we" and "our" would suggest that he is LDS, but he did not say he is.

[Lstinthwrld]

believer_1829 And does that make any of his points less valid than if he were? Why does this always happen? Valid questions are asked then brushed of because the questioner is not considered to be lds. Why is it that people can not ask these questions and get intelligent thought out responses? Is it really that hard to participate in a dialogue about the lds religion/faith? Why is everyone so defensive?

[Maxel]

Michael220:

The historical events that the Bible claimed transpired are often unsupported by archaeological evidence (the exodus from Israel, for example). Contrarily, there are historical evidences that support the Book of Mormon's claims of historicity, but nothing that proves anything.

If our faith is based in facts accepted by the scientific and anthropological community, our faith is in serious danger of death. Our faith needs to be rooted in knowledge given us from God- the kind of knowledge that Christ praised Peter for having.

Matthew 15:16-17

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

[pam]

Aren't there stories in the Book of Mormon that the people had become so wicked that God destroyed city after city. Sunk them into the earth, leveled them. Wiping out entire civilizations. Wouldn't that explain why there is so little physical evidence?

[Guest Believer_1829]

believer_1829 And does that make any of his points less valid than if he were? Why does this always happen? Valid questions are asked then brushed of because the questioner is not considered to be lds. Why is it that people can not ask these questions and get intelligent thought out responses? Is it really that hard to participate in a dialogue about the lds religion/faith? Why is everyone so defensive?

My objection is to creating the impression they are just Joe Schmo Mormon, and they just happened to come up with these questions about their faith.

Why not be honest and just admit, "Hey, I am not a Mormon. And I think you are wrong because of A, B, and C."

I am more then happy to engage in this discussion or any discussion with someone who is honest about themselves. His questions are rather routine and easily answered.

[Lstinthwrld]

Fair enough. If you were talking to a person who is looking and extremely confused about the way mormons believe what would you say to them? Lets suppose they know all the hoo ha that goes around the net that says this is not right that's not valid etc etc etc..

[Guest Believer_1829]

Fair enough. If you were talking to a person who is looking and extremely confused about the way mormons believe what would you say to them? Lets suppose they know all the hoo ha that goes around the net that says this is not right that's not valid etc etc etc..

You mean in answering the question of the OP?

Is our faith based upon something historical? Very important question to ask ourselves. I have been researching for ancient documents or archeological evidence to support the stories that the young joseph smith wrote about in the book of mormon. Joseph stated that the Nephites were people of great writings and record keeping. But we dont have a single ancient papyrus or scroll or even a fragment of this history prior to 1830. With the Bible we have the dead sea scrolls which reveal that the ancient writings of old are accurate with the kjv Bible we still have today. Dead Sea scrolls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These are not actual questions, just statements of perceived facts by the OP, but I will answer...

1) There are actually many stories amoung Native Tribes that back the story in the Book of Mormon. You should begin with "He Walked the Americas" by L. Taylor Hansen (whom I believe is not affiliated with any Book of Mormon believing movement)

2) When the Spanish conquered America one of the first things they did , by their own admission, is destroy as many historical records as they could find amoung the Native people.

We read about the battle that took place at the hill called kumorah, over a million people died on this small hill and not one piece of archelogical evidence has been found to support this

.

1) This is a faulty assumption often used by detractors. No one has ever claimed the Hill call Cumorah in New York is THE Hill Cumorah written of in the Book of Mormon. Spring Hill was renamed in honor of the Hill Cumorah, because it is the hill from which Joseph retrieved the records.

2) The most likely setting for the Book of Mormon in southern Mexico and northern Central America. Only 10% of known archaeological sites in the area have ever been visited by an archaeologist because the are so remote, and in the known sites they continue to find new stuff. They uncovered a huge pyramid in Mexico City only about 2 years ago.

3) American archaeology has only been in existence for 150 years, and with less resources and a more trying enviornment (see #2). Also, archaeologist don't use the hints found in the Book of Mormon for exploring as they use Bible, and they wouldn't know if they found evidence because they don't even know what they are looking for. did you know there is a cancient city in Mexico that name in the Native language is "Lamanoi"?

Also it has been proven that the native american people came from east asia, and migrated down from their. If you look at pictures of the peoples from east asia and compare it to the native americans you can clearly see the resemblance, also the archeology of native americans shows simularities between the people. And last but not least is that DNA evidence proves that the native americans are from east asia. This same DNA evidence is used to put criminals behend bars, would count the book of mormon as a fraudalent book.

1) I am not an expert on DNA, so I will defer to the video "The Book of Mormon and New World DNA". The main person on the video is a nuclear geneticist who saw the flaws of the anti-Book of Mormon crowd's analysis of DNA results 2 years or so BEFORE he became a member of the LDS church. In fact his research led him to investigate more.

Have you ever been to zerehemlah,ancient bountiful? Nobody has, these cities do not exist. But we can go to Jerusalem,Bethlaham,the sea of Galilee, and all the cities the Bible speaks of.

1)See my #2 answer in the archaeology section.

These are sincere questions, that I believe are worth looking into.

If someone has some evidence please let me know.

See above.

[Snow]

Is our faith based upon something historical? Very important question to ask ourselves. I have been researching for ancient documents or archeological evidence to support the stories that the young joseph smith wrote about in the book of mormon. Joseph stated that the Nephites were people of great writings and record keeping. But we dont have a single ancient papyrus or scroll or even a fragment of this history prior to 1830. With the Bible we have the dead sea scrolls which reveal that the ancient writings of old are accurate with the kjv Bible we still have today. Dead Sea scrolls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We read about the battle that took place at the hill called kumorah, over a million people died on this small hill and not one piece of archelogical evidence has been found to support this. Also it has been proven that the native american people came from east asia, and migrated down from their. If you look at pictures of the peoples from east asia and compare it to the native americans you can clearly see the resemblance, also the archeology of native americans shows simularities between the people. And last but not least is that DNA evidence proves that the native americans are from east asia. This same DNA evidence is used to put criminals behend bars, would count the book of mormon as a fraudalent book. Have you ever been to zerehemlah,ancient bountiful? Nobody has, these cities do not exist. But we can go to Jerusalem,Bethlaham,the sea of Galilee, and all the cities the Bible speaks of.

These are sincere questions, that I believe are worth looking into. If someone has some evidence please let me know.

Many Blessings!

Excellent questions, very good. I am not a Book of Mormon expert so unfortunately I do not have a lot to offer. But you do mention the Bible. What historical evidence exists for, let's start at the beginning, the accounts described by Genesis?

[Snow]

My objection is to creating the impression they are just Joe Schmo Mormon, and they just happened to come up with these questions about their faith.

Why not be honest and just admit, "Hey, I am not a Mormon. And I think you are wrong because of A, B, and C."

I am more then happy to engage in this discussion or any discussion with someone who is honest about themselves. His questions are rather routine and easily answered.

That's a whole lot of inference based on two tiny words.

Had he simply been stylistically astute enough, he could have started a second paragraph for his third sentence and then there would have been any reasonable inference.

His intent is obvious enough without jumping to the very weak conclusion that he intended to mislead about his religious affiliation.

[prisonchaplain]

Why not give the poster the benefit of thinking he did not want to come across as brash and antagonistic, so he chose to use mostly nuetral language? I agree with Snow that by the end of the OP it seemed pretty clear that he was not LDS, but chose to use subtle and inquisitive language, rather than the more boorish type.

BTW, to answer Snow's question, I sat under the teaching of Prof. Stanley Horton for my Old Testament Survey. He was a very elderly gentlemen, who did his duty in presenting such "liberal" notions as the JEDP theory (that Moses was not the author of the Books of Moses). Dr. Horton says he recalls seeing Moses often working late into the night, in his tent, by candlelight. Furthermore, Moses was a man of good character, honest, and full of integrity...and that he wouldn't of wrote it the way he did unless God told him to.

Edited August 13, 2009 by prisonchaplain

[Guest Believer_1829]

But trying to perpetrate a fraud for the sake of arguing your points gives you zero credibility and loses the audience you are trying to engage.

[Guest Believer_1829]

This same DNA evidence is used to put criminals behend bars, would count the book of mormon as a fraudalent book

Have you ever been to zerehemlah,ancient bountiful? Nobody has, these cities do not exist.

** If that is "subtle" and "inquisitive", I'd hate to see his attack mode.***

[prisonchaplain]

But trying to perpetrate a fraud for the sake of arguing your points gives you zero credibility and loses the audience you are trying to engage.

What Snow suggests, and I concur with, is that the OP does not contain enough evidence to show that there was a concious attempt to do so. What you believe was perpetuating fraud, to others, such as myself, appears to merely be cautious, nuetral language. Why not give posters the benefit of the doubt. Trolls are usually fairly quick to expose themselves. Premature accusations can back fire.

[Guest Believer_1829]

What Snow suggests, and I concur with, is that the OP does not contain enough evidence to show that there was a concious attempt to do so. What you believe was perpetuating fraud, to others, such as myself, appears to merely be cautious, nuetral language. Why not give posters the benefit of the doubt. Trolls are usually fairly quick to expose themselves. Premature accusations can back fire.

I'm speechless.

[Guest Believer_1829]

Is our faith based upon something historical? Very important question to ask ourselves.

Nope, no conscious effort.

[bmy-]

Just to be blunt: I don't believe for a second you are LDS

Just to be blunt: I don't believe for a second that you are LDS.

See how easy that was? It doesn't mean a darn thing either. Perhaps you should think before you post.

Edited August 13, 2009 by bmy-
i'm an idiot sometimes ;)

[pam]

Smart move editing that last post. Though what you posted could have gone without being posted as well.

Edited August 13, 2009 by pam

[bmy-]

Smart move editing that last post.

I fired away without thinking, learned my lesson, and decided to help him not make the same mistake I did

I don't want to get banned again -- I proof read my posts now. (I really shouldn't post late at night.. I get so cranky )

[pam]

Very noble of you indeed.

[bmy-]

Can anyone explain to me what is up with Hill Cumorah?

Anthony W. Ivins (and numerous others) stated the correct location was in fact the NY Hill Cumorah.. but it's pretty obvious that's not entirely truthful. I understand that the 'geography' of the BoM isn't known but we can rule out most areas to give us a general idea.. south of the U.S

Edited August 13, 2009 by bmy-

[Guest SmarterBlue]

Is our faith based upon something historical? Very important question to ask ourselves.

I think I would have started the OP a little differently, and I would have tried not to use inclusive language that causes a broad range of people to jump in the same boat at the same time. The only lesson I’ve learned here is I usually get smashed against the keel with a hundred people on top of me. If the first question were stated a little differently such as, “Is my faith biased on something historical?” then I would be tempted to reply with something like, “Which side of the fence are you on?”

According to my Federal Government professor all scripture, even the Bible, it just a form of control. It was actually kind of funny to see some of the students ask her biblical questions (her favorite thing to hate) only to waste precious time, and money, as we were tested on material she was supposed to be covering anyway.

Though I’m inclined to agree with Maxel’s inference to Matthew 15:16-17, another scripture came to mind that I think shapes my argument a little better, which is Matthew 6: 24, “No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.”

Simply put, anything can be disproven. Faith is to the believer, as art is to the artists. Either you will accept scripture (Book of Mormon, Torah, Quran, Holy Bible, Pali Canon), all of which can be proven and disproven, or you wont. In our Americanized salad society you will even find people that choose to believe a little of each religion, which makes my head hurt.

In closing, I can only advise that to wherever your allegiances lie, you pray to the Creator in your faith and find an answer. I wish you the best of luck on your spiritual journey and hope it is a pleasant one.

[Justice]

I think just because something hasn't been found doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

"We haven't found the ark, so the story of the flood and ark in the Bible must be false."

What we DO have is the Book of Mormon. To anyone who honestly seeks to know if Joseph Smith was a prophet, the Book of Mormon really is enough. Either you believe he (and the 3 witnesses) lied when he said he was given the plates by an angel, or you believe his story is true.

I wish everything in life were that simple.

Read 2 Nephi chapters 28 and 29.

2 Nephi 28

2 Nephi 29

Those are prophecies that foretold many of the beliefs that would exists in the world in our day... all of which you can see expressed in this very forum at different times.

[Hemidakota]

Is our faith based upon something historical? Very important question to ask ourselves. I have been researching for ancient documents or archeological evidence to support the stories that the young joseph smith wrote about in the book of mormon. Joseph stated that the Nephites were people of great writings and record keeping. But we dont have a single ancient papyrus or scroll or even a fragment of this history prior to 1830. With the Bible we have the dead sea scrolls which reveal that the ancient writings of old are accurate with the kjv Bible we still have today. Dead Sea scrolls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We read about the battle that took place at the hill called kumorah, over a million people died on this small hill and not one piece of archelogical evidence has been found to support this. Also it has been proven that the native american people came from east asia, and migrated down from their. If you look at pictures of the peoples from east asia and compare it to the native americans you can clearly see the resemblance, also the archeology of native americans shows simularities between the people. And last but not least is that DNA evidence proves that the native americans are from east asia. This same DNA evidence is used to put criminals behend bars, would count the book of mormon as a fraudalent book. Have you ever been to zerehemlah,ancient bountiful? Nobody has, these cities do not exist. But we can go to Jerusalem,Bethlaham,the sea of Galilee, and all the cities the Bible speaks of.

These are sincere questions, that I believe are worth looking into. If someone has some evidence please let me know.

Many Blessings!

Or is it faithless members? But then, you need to be a member to exhibit faith in the first place.